Getting most interesting mods into the stock game.

[Hodo]

So many points of view, and so many that I think are reading this wrong.

Squad added the aircraft parts because it is something that was missing from the base KSP. No space program ever got started without the basic understanding of flight, it is simple as that. If you want to just launch rockets great you can launch rockets, but without a basic aerodynamic model your rockets will be no better than throwing powered darts at space, and honestly that isn't much fun to me or many others. For better or for worse, Squad is gradually adding some of the plugins that fit into the KSP game without making it "to realistic" or "to simple". The aircraft parts aren't just for space planes, they are for ALL aircraft, rockets or other. Squad is going to add a few more mods to the stock game that are just things that are missing or incomplete, Kerbal Joint Reinforcement is one that comes to mind. Currently the base KSP joint system is held together by hopes and dreams, KJR fixes that. TAC Fuel Balancer lets you shift your fuel load around without having to click on a dozen different tanks to do it. Again another thing that should be in game but isn't. Kerbal Engineering Redux, a craft information tool, why don't we have an information tool for craft construction? Because no-one thought to put one in till there was KER and MJ.

As I am sure one day, Squad will fix the current hydrodynamic modeled atmosphere and use something more like FAR, which makes an atmosphere behave like well, an atmosphere. I also wouldn't be shocked if Finale Frontier and Mission Controller made the list of mods to be added to the stock KSP.

Lets look at some of the other mods that were added, Sub-assembly loader, not many people *****ed about that one. Science, again.. not hearing a lot of gripes there either.

So my advice is to sit back, enjoy the ride, and see where they go with this game. If it turns out you hate it, well you can mod it how you want or just quit, at this point I am sure you have gotten your moneys worth, I know I have.

[DocMoriarty]

My selection of mods would be better sounds as in chatterer and the alarm clock mod which i consider absolutely essential since this is the mod that enables me to do many interplanetary flights parallel. And something that tells me part count, weight and probably a bit more in VAB/SPH. Right now i always have to launch to see the final stats to note them in the text of the final subassembly. I'd actually be happy if the subassembly and saved craft dialogs would display the total weight additional to the part count. The simple reason is that when you make use of subassemblies for composing your final rockets you simply need to know how much your payload weighs to select the correct launch rocket.

[Red Iron Crown]

Squad added the aircraft parts because it is something that was missing from the base KSP.

I think Squad added the aircraft parts because they were so popular with players. I don't think KSP was originally intended to be anything more than a rocket simulator, the grossly simplified aerodynamic model is evidence of this.

No space program ever got started without the basic understanding of flight, it is simple as that.

Well, KSP's space program does. Play a career game and try to use planes before rockets, it's very, very difficult.

If you want to just launch rockets great you can launch rockets, but without a basic aerodynamic model your rockets will be no better than throwing powered darts at space, and honestly that isn't much fun to me or many others.

The aerodynamic model doesn't get changed by adding aircraft parts, and I personally enjoy the powered darts.

For better or for worse, Squad is gradually adding some of the plugins that fit into the KSP game without making it "to realistic" or "to simple". The aircraft parts aren't just for space planes, they are for ALL aircraft, rockets or other.

I haven't used an aerodynamic part other than a parachute since I first tried C7's mod, other than to see if I like them any better with each new version (I don't). If I wanted to fly planes there are any number of better atmospheric flight simulators out there, I play KSP for going to space. For me, the atmosphere is an obstacle to be overcome at launch and a useful braking medium.

All that said, I don't begrudge the aircraft parts being added to the game even though I don't use them, because I recognize that the way I enjoy the game is not the way everyone enjoys the game. It just irks me when someone says something along the lines of "I would never use that, it should stay a mod," implying that only their way of playing is important. I offer my experience with aircraft parts as a counter example to this line of reasoning.

[Jouni]

Waiting until the codebase stabilizes doesn't mean giving up. It means spending less time on documentation and more time on developing the game, while getting better-quality documentation in the end.

[Lambert2191]

I've never been able to get into planes, I havetried and tested and failed and don't care anymore. I would argue that KAC and KER would be more suitable for addition to the stock game than plane parts, and would certainly see more use. Most use the winglets to stabalize their rockets rather than to build planes with.

[Dispatcher]

I think that one of the reasons that Squad has allowed modding to be moderately doable (if not downright supporting mods), is the fact that the modders tend to come up with really cool stuff that the developers either have no time for, hadn't considered or are simply holding off doing until other goals or even placeholders are achieved.

Some of the mods (and modders) have been picked up and incorporated by the developers. Some mods are very useful, basic tools (such as KER) and other mods may not appeal to some players due to them being "fluff" instead of basic functionality upgrades (Chatterer, a fun though nonessential mod comes to mind).

I think Squad may incorporate some more mods in the future, or at least prominently suggest them in the future.

As for my own preference, I'd like to see KER made a stock feature; perhaps unlocked later on in the tech tree after interplanetary missions are doable. If KER was not available, I'd have become tired of KSP and I'd be less likely to recommend it to others. Its not asking too much to have access to basic data such as mass, dV, TWR and such available in the VAB/ SPH. Its a game, after all, and nobody should be expected to calculate the particulars in order to assemble a proper rocket. I'm sure some others may feel differently, but that's how I feel.

[SRV Ron]

"As for my own preference, I'd like to see KER made a stock feature; perhaps unlocked later on in the tech tree after interplanetary missions are doable."

Designing and flight testing a rocket using the Kerbal School of hard Knocks is part of the fun. So is piloting one without Mechjeb. Still, such tech should be available for those that want to later use them to speed up processes such as assembling space stations or interplanetary ships in orbit.

[Vanamonde]

This suggestion about the development of the game has been moved to the suggestions and development sub-forum.

[Merinsan]

Code review generally takes less time than code creation. I'd be floored if incorporating a mod into the game took more dev time than making equivalent functionality from scratch.

There may be licensing issues as some of the mods are released under viral licenses. Though I suppose Squad could negotiate a more suitable license with the modder.

True, but the code review might mean they have rewrite the code almost from scratch. Just because code works, doesn't mean it should be implemented that way. It may be implemented in such a way that the developers know will break in a future update. This is the point I am trying to make.

I frequently do code reviews in my job, and often have to scrap what was done simply because it violates design principles that are in place due to product roadmap.

[Frank_G]

I think all of the mods you like playing with are not all the mods I like playing with. Making them all stock will change how a lot of people play the game. I play with just KER and Kethane. Why should I load up the memory footprint of mods I don't want if they are made stock? If they are to be toggle-able, why not just leave them mods?

Very good point. And a game or any other project is developed with a goal in mind. Just adding all that external stuff will leave you lost in the woods for sure. Taking a serious look into what the community wants and does is absolutely neccessary, but Squad is very close to the KSP users and i am sure, that they will go the right way and will add "the right stuff" when its time.

[blizzy78]

I frequently do code reviews in my job, and often have to scrap what was done simply because it violates design principles that are in place due to product roadmap.

Ever thought of making your peers aware of those design principles? You could cut down on the scrapping considerably, wasting less of everyone's time.

[MR4Y]

Waiting until the codebase stabilizes doesn't mean giving up. It means spending less time on documentation and more time on developing the game, while getting better-quality documentation in the end.

Implementing more features and adding parts/features due to popularity hardly does anything to stabilize codebase. It just helps to preserve the alpha status quo.

Still questioning why a modder has to provide source code of his own work.

Edited March 13, 2014 by MR4Y
Certain words would result in thread locking if uttered.

[Jouni]

Implementing more features and adding parts/features due to popularity hardly does anything to stabilize codebase. It just helps to preserve the alpha status quo.

Not implementing more features and parts does not help to stabilize the codebase, if the developers feel the game still needs those features and parts before it is finished.

[MR4Y]

Not implementing more features and parts does not help to stabilize the codebase, if the developers feel the game still needs those features and parts before it is finished.

Is multiplayer/asteroids more important than fixing core game features and bugs?

[blizzy78]

Is multiplayer/asteroids more important than fixing core game features and bugs?

I think at the current state, both are equally important, but less important than good documentation, because as I said earlier, KSP lives from the modding community.

[CaptRobau]

The only mods that I feel are necessary for me to play the game and thus would benefit from inclusion in one form or another are:

Enhanced Navball and Navball docking alignment indicator

Adds Normal, Anti-Normal, Radial, Anti-Radial and Target Plane. The devs even mentioned they wanted to add some of these in, but they keep forgetting (the art for those navball is even in the game already). Doesn't reduce the difficulty of docking or doing maneuvers, just makes it more accessible.

FloorIt

The opposite of pressing X, ie. going full throttle. Press Z and you floor it immediately. Really intuitive.

RCS Build Aid/URL]

In the most basic form it basically tells you how balanced your RCS is. Makes RCS a breeze, instead of a chore.

Editor Extensions

Some of these extensions are perhaps to complex for stock KSP, but the buttons it introduces for toggling vertical snap and toggling part clipping are just too important not to have.

[MR4Y]

I think at the current state, both are equally important, but less important than good documentation, because as I said earlier, KSP lives from the modding community.

A good and stable cake recipe (core game features) matters most that the icing on the top (mods, asteroids, multiplayer). Without developing a good recipe, one cannot simply help people replicate it (game documentation)

[blizzy78]

Oh my. Let's just say we don't agree on the documentation topic.

[Jouni]

Is multiplayer/asteroids more important than fixing core game features and bugs?

Different people have different opinions on what's important and what's just nice extra. It's the developers' opinions that matter, however, because it's their jobs that are at stake.

[MR4Y]

Different people have different opinions on what's important and what's just nice extra. It's the developers' opinions that matter, however, because it's their jobs that are at stake.

And, since when that takes away my right to have my own opinion?

And, I'll politely disagree with you for one simple reason: The devs didn't wanted multiplayer and now look what is now being implemented!

[rkman]

If KER was not available, I'd have become tired of KSP and I'd be less likely to recommend it to others. ..

Its a game, after all, and nobody should be expected to calculate the particulars in order to assemble a proper rocket.

I could say a lot about that, but i'll just second it.

Ok, i'll say something anyway:

Without basic rocketry stats available in the VAB, most players (the ones who are not rocket scientists) spend the first few weeks in trial-and-error cycles trying to figure out which/how many fuel tanks and engines they have to put on their rocket just to get to the Mun and back. After that most either give up or visit the forums to discover the solution to their problem: install a mod such as KER or Mechjeb and get a delta-V chart. Only a very few move on to become rockets scientists - that is to say: learn to calculate delta-v etc by hand.

[Jouni]

And, I'll politely disagree with you for one simple reason: The devs didn't wanted multiplayer and now look what is now being implemented!

It's not the first time people have changed their minds, when their jobs are at stake.

Squad is trying to develop the game to be as good as possible, by their opinion. Squad is trying to develop a game that sells as much as possible. Squad is trying to develop features that are interesting to develop. Those are all conflicting goals, so compromises have to be made all the time. All those goals also influence what their opinions are at any particular moment.

That "interesting to develop" part is especially important, because we are talking about game development. There are easier and better paying jobs available for competent software developers, who don't consider having an interesting job so important.