The ARM megathread

[Jouni]

I don't understand all this hurry. When I hear game developers promising something to happen real soon now, I expect them to probably release something in a few months. A week is, after all, a really short time in software development. While you can often hack the main functionality together in a few hours, polishing the last 10% can easily take months. And even when you think you are only a couple of days away from release, some unexpected bugs can delay that release for weeks or even months. Things like that just happen, and nobody can really control it.

[MKI]

The killer to all this fiasco isn't the broad usage, and later mocking, of the term "Soon"

Or the fact this update has taken nearly 3 months (working with NASA is not a fast thing)

It was the extreme hype that was used that was more or less misleading.

If you look at any game that is updated, there isn't this much of a hype without a baseline release date to it. There was a marathon, advertisements for the marathon, multiple media team members talking about and showing the update, multiple Game Conferences referring to and showing off the update, and a large media release simultaneously with and after the marathon.

All of that for an update that didn't have a release date yet. Its one thing to talk about the update, its another to show it off A LOT. Then not even give out a date, or at least a projection. Let alone the actual product.

If anyone heard the actual release would be within a week, not many would be upset over it being pushed back another. The further away a rough estimate is set, the less accurate it is. This is pretty much common sense. A lot can happen in a weeks time.

Using the term "Soon" after what seemed like a finished build extravaganza could mean anywhere from later today, to tomorrow. If the Dev's mentioned they hit problems and need to push it back, with a valid reason as to why (asteroids must not be very friendly to the games code) it would be understandable, as long as they did it when people would expect the product to arrive after soon. Yea it sucks, but its better to know your not getting it than not knowing anything.

If there is one thing people hate the most, its not getting an answer. People expected an answer and got nothing. For nearly a week, getting closure (or in this case confirmation of a later release date) is important to people in general.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

If there is one thing people hate the most, its not getting an answer. People expected an answer and got nothing. For nearly a week, getting closure (or in this case confirmation of a later release date) is important to people in general.

Yup, This!

Not really criticizing, (damn, I hate the American spelling...) but, yeah... like I've been saying, some sort of update (EDIT: on the progress, that is!) would have been nice, especially with so many looking forward to such a well-publicized update...

If Rowsdowner had of been allowed to say anything, he probably would have... But my guess is even he has been kept in the dark somewhat, so it seems like some sort of internal communication problem... come on guys, you're all on the same team here! keep the comms up, after all, we are talking about a Space Program game, and if there's one thing that's gonna ruin a space mission, it's lack of communication! (Which is why Chatterer is probably fairly popular )

Edited March 29, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e

[Jouni]

If anyone heard the actual release would be within a week, not many would be upset over it being pushed back another. The further away a rough estimate is set, the less accurate it is. This is pretty much common sense. A lot can happen in a weeks time.

This paragraph seems contradictory. A week is an extremely short amount of time, in which you really can't expect to get that much work done. You may have some productive weeks by random chance, but it's at least as likely that one thing out of millions goes wrong, and you pretty much end up wasting the entire week.

Software development isn't assembly line work. The variance of productivity from one week to another is enormous. If you have several months to a deadline, you can guess pretty accurately, whether you can meet the deadline or not. When there is only one week left, there is no way you can make the guess, unless the work is already finished.

[Xaiier]

What on Kerbin? Why is everyone such an insolent little whiner when it comes to something so simple?

How many previous updates haven't had proper communication before the release? Yeah, most of them. This isn't anything out of the ordinary. We were, however, granted the ability to see some of the major parts of the update early, something that isn't usually done. Being that this is a special update with NASA involved, it does make sense to hype it somewhat. They reached a point where it was stable enough to show, and so they wanted to show it. I don't understand why everyone is in such a fuss about it.

[kookoo_gr]

Danny2462 broke the game in so many ways that the devs need time to fix the bugs he created

[Coneshot]

While I'm as anxious as the next person (as reflected in an earlier post), I appreciate the fact Squad has pride in their work and will not release anything that hasn't passed quality control. I can't fault them for taking advantage of the GDC to hype their latest project, even if it wasn't totally polished and ready to "ship". They took advantage of an opportunity to gain exposure for KSP which is vital to their continued success. If they followed that with "BTW, it's got serious bugs and isn't ready to release." it would have undermined what they had gained from the event.

[panfish5]

To answer "why [should the community be told that there were major bugs]", I would give two, separate reasons:

1. The earlier they address issues the less back-lash they'll see. This is my opinion, but I think SQUAD has shown poor judgment on when to address issues (not just this release). I think if they had come out and said "we wanted to get this out this week but hit major bugs, so it has to be pushed back", there would be less backlash and much less speculation on the forums. But they did this to themselves. Again. Rowsdower posted that the "Soon" meme has pretty much been worn down to the point of being painful. The situation SQUAD's fault, and I think being honest would have made it less painful.
   
2. The "Minecraft" pre-release model. I made it very clear in the post you incompletely cited that there is an expectation of a certain level of communication on the part of the developer. I refer to Minecraft here because they were important pioneers in how this "pre-release" system works. A lot of people on these forums like to dump on Minecraft for whatever reason, but the fact is they wouldn't be playing KSP right now if Minecraft hadn't paved the way for pre-release. SQUAD is capitalizing their release model, but they're doing a poor job of dealing with the model's pitfalls. Before and after the commercial release, they've been, IMO, very clear about the features they're working on and what to expect. They can effectively communicate with the community, but rarely give concrete release dates for patches. Features sometimes don't show up in the patches they were aiming for, but thats almost never a surprise when the patch launches. Failure to actively communicate with the community leads to the problems we see in this thread. There may be no explicit guarantee, but I think it's ignorant to say there's not an expectation.
   

Also, please note that at no point have demanded, expected, or even asked for a release date. Simply, I'd like to be told that there was misunderstanding between what they meant by "soon" and what was obvious perceived by a substantial portion of community here. /shrug. That's it. And I acknowledge the CM has done that. I think it would have been better handled on Tuesday or Wednesday when the storm was brewing, but this is a situation where late is better than never.

I'm not expecting them to.

This is what happened, and yes, they should want to avoid negative press. But it's their own fault hyping a product that wasn't ready for release and being vague with a timeline of "soon". I'm saying they failed to avoid negative community reactions and addressing it earlier would have avoided much of the frustration seen here in the forums.

A lot of this seems to be I think that they storm they created was foreseeable, and you draw a false dichotomy above saying they have to upset people wanting quality vs new toys now. Much of this, e.g. style and satisfying everyone with features, I explicitly stated I wasn't complaining about in the incompletely quoted message.

Again, just to be sure I'm staying on point with this message:

The sooner they address an issue (e.g. missed deadlines, miscommunications, canceled/shelved features, etc) and the more clearly they address the issues, the better the community will take it.

Anything else from this post is really unimportant in comparison to that message. I think Rowsdower's recent post was a good start and, again, I hope signs of change in the future.

So it seems your angry that you don't know when the update will be released.

So if I were you I would an ice pack your sore fingers than I would wait patiently for the update. SQUAD really should not waste their time arguing with someone that represents a very small part of their community.

Edited March 29, 2014 by panfish5

[KasperVld]

So it seems your angry that you don't know when the update will be released.

So if I were you I would an ice pack your sore fingers than I would wait patiently for the update. SQUAD really should not waste their time arguing with someone that represents a very small part of their community.

I think that was uncalled for, panfish5. Just because someone sees something differently doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. I'd appreciate it if you could continue the discussion based on arguments instead of, well, this..

[RuBisCO]

Call me a dick but I would not mind if they released ARM with .24 and did not release a .23.5 version, cuts down on all the re-installing, I can wait.

[Skipants]

Well, while you wait for the ARM update from SQUAD you can get an ARM update from NASA. Quite a long video but Is very interesting. Maybe some of these concepts will influence KSP craft design!

[/video

edit: here is the link

not sure how to do embedded video after all haha

edit: I found The Claw! skip to 42m56s. there is a video on the slide show that shows something very close to the claw that we have been seeing.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Skipants

[*Aqua*]

The NASA microspine grabber works a bit different than a claw.

A claw presses its claw 'thorns' deep into an object and usually damage it. The microspine grabber pulls thorns across the surface until they get stuck in the surface pattern. It's more like an anchor than a claw.

Early prototype

Latest (?) prototype

[Red Iron Crown]

The NASA microspine grabber works a bit different than a claw.

A claw presses its claw 'thorns' deep into an object and usually damage it. The microspine grabber pulls thorns across the surface until they get stuck in the surface pattern. It's more like an anchor than a claw.

Early prototype

http://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/roboticVideos/vid1016-147-browse.jpg

Latest (?) prototype

http://www.engineering.com/Portals/0/BlogFiles/DesignerEdge/1113/Gripper.jpg

Where's the fuel transfer pipe?

That's an interesting design, amazing how complex something meant to do something as simple as "grab a rock" can get. Thanks for sharing it.

[*Aqua*]

Where's the fuel transfer pipe?

Did you see the donut? What fuels humans can fuel kerbal rockets too! ^^

(crappy joke, I know)

amazing how complex something meant to do something as simple as "grab a rock" can get

I don't know if this grabber really works on an asteroid. It needs something solid to grab. I'm not sure if asteroids are solid enough for that. They could be made of dust instead of rocks.

[Dispatcher]

Hmmm. Maybe a Karpoon or lots of plastic wrap.

[kiwiak]

The NASA microspine grabber works a bit different than a claw.

A claw presses its claw 'thorns' deep into an object and usually damage it. The microspine grabber pulls thorns across the surface until they get stuck in the surface pattern. It's more like an anchor than a claw.

Early prototype

http://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/roboticVideos/vid1016-147-browse.jpg

Latest (?) prototype

http://www.engineering.com/Portals/0/BlogFiles/DesignerEdge/1113/Gripper.jpg

Im sure someone will mod this into game eventually.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I don't know if this grabber really works on an asteroid. It needs something solid to grab. I'm not sure if asteroids are solid enough for that. They could be made of dust instead of rocks.

Seeing as space is a vacuum, and wel below zero, and water tends to freeze things together a LOT... plus, it really depends on what TYPE of Asteroid, as there are many different types - yes, there are those covered in dust, which will make 'grabbing on' difficult, but if it's a sizable chunk of space rock that's had many millions of years or micro-impacts, then this device is perfect!

mmmmmm, donuts....

[ThermalShark]

Seeing as space is a vacuum, and wel below zero, and water tends to freeze things together a LOT... plus, it really depends on what TYPE of Asteroid, as there are many different types - yes, there are those covered in dust, which will make 'grabbing on' difficult, but if it's a sizable chunk of space rock that's had many millions of years or micro-impacts, then this device is perfect!

mmmmmm, donuts....

Space has no temperature, as it is a vacuum. The temperature of an asteroid depends on the solar heat is receives (among other things). But you are right about the asteroid types.

[R0cketC0der]

The current plan by NASA is to use a bag for capturing the asteroid: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/756122main_Asteroid%20Redirect%20Mission%20Reference%20Concept%20Description.pdf

[NecroBones]

Space has no temperature, as it is a vacuum. The temperature of an asteroid depends on the solar heat is receives (among other things). But you are right about the asteroid types.

True, but to a point you can say there is a temperature in space, as defined by the cosmic background radiation, which as I recall is about 2.7 degrees K.

[Skipants]

I don't know if this grabber really works on an asteroid. It needs something solid to grab. I'm not sure if asteroids are solid enough for that. They could be made of dust instead of rocks.

From what I understood from their latest press release the grabber would be used to grab a small boulder from a large asteroid. The bag is the proposed method for capturing a whole medium/small asteroid.

[CalculusWarrior]

Danny2462 broke the game in so many ways that the devs need time to fix the bugs he created

Curiously, in his ARM video, I don't believe Danny found a single bug.

[DMagic]

Space has no temperature, as it is a vacuum. The temperature of an asteroid depends on the solar heat is receives (among other things). But you are right about the asteroid types.

Well it's not really a vacuum, and there is a temperature, but the whole concept is a little vague when you get to such low densities like you have in interplanetary space. There is the temperature of the background radiation like Necro said, then there is the temperature of the solar wind which can be greatly affected by things like magnetic fields or slamming into a large asteroid. And if you get an asteroid close enough to the sun it's probably likely to have some dust blown off of its surface, giving you another thing to measure.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

it also depends on if you are in interstellar, inter-solar (between solar systems) or interplanetary... similar to the 'fixed points in space' thing! (I didn't get much sleep last night... words are failing me... and it was due to other things besides bashing F5 lol!)

EDIT; mildly ninja'd by DMagic there...

[Kasuha]

To make the wait for the ARM release a bit shorter I thought it might be good idea to offer a makeshift challenge to anyone interested in how 3000 ton payload handles in free space. Of course I cannot provide any new parts or improved maneuver nodes but if you manage to finish this challenge, you should be comfortable doing actual ARM missions

Head over to MAR Challenge if you want to give it a try...