Thinner and thicker atmospheres

[NERVAfan]

The thinnest atmosphere in KSP is Duna's -- at 0 meters, 20% of Kerbin's sea level pressure. The real Mars has about 1.6% Earth sea level pressure at its lowest point (Hellas Basin).

Eve's surface pressure is 5 atmospheres (Venus's is more like 93). Even Jool only goes up to 15 atm.

Now, maybe KSP's aerodynamics would cause trouble with really thick atmospheres, but why not give some bodies (maybe Vall or Tylo?) a very thin atmosphere, like 0.001 atmospheres at 0 meters?

[Kaptain]

I've thought this also, quite a few of our solar systems moons have very thin atmospheres. It would be neat to deal with them in kerbal. Especially if there was wind. Something like pluto's atmosphere would be interesting also, only puffing up during its warmer seasons.

[NovaSilisko]

The relatively low levels of atmosphere on Eve and Jool were indeed due to KSP's aerodynamics and the way the drag system works in general. Duna's atmosphere was increased compared to Mars' so aircraft would be more feasible, and landing in general would be easier. Duna's atmosphere is very short (as in, in overall altitude) compared to Mars' (which stretches almost as high up as earth's), and as a result, you generally will smack into the ground at about 90% of orbital velocity with a mars-like atmosphere - there's not enough time to slow down.

I am not sure what the super thin atmosphere on Vall or Tylo or elsewhere would actually do though, it would only just barely be noticeable and would likely serve as an annoyance for those wanting to orbit at very low altitudes. A faint visual could perhaps work, though, even it it has no real effect.

[NERVAfan]

I am not sure what the super thin atmosphere on Vall or Tylo or elsewhere would actually do though, it would only just barely be noticeable and would likely serve as an annoyance for those wanting to orbit at very low altitudes.

Well, it could add an extra science zone at least.

And if you cut off the atmosphere at 10^-6 atm like Kerbin maybe it could start at 10^-5 or something and only extend up to like 10 km and so people wouldn't really be trying to orbit that low.

But mostly it just seems weird to me that there are no really thin atmospheres.

[Nuke]

i really want a titan analogue. the odd combo of thick atmo, but low gravity.

[CaptRobau]

One should take into account that celestial bodies in KSP are much smaller. Jool is the size of Venus and the other planets and moons are much smaller. So you can't have comparative densities to real-world analogues.

[Red Iron Crown]

i really want a titan analogue. the odd combo of thick atmo, but low gravity.

That sounds ready made for aircraft, even better if it's a jet-friendly atmo. Maybe when they add the rumored second gas giant it will be one of the satellites.

[Nuke]

That sounds ready made for aircraft, even better if it's a jet-friendly atmo. Maybe when they add the rumored second gas giant it will be one of the satellites.

hydrocarbon atmosphere and you can fuel up with oxidizer. hell you could probibly get to orbit with some kind of prop job if the gravity is low enough.

thats the other thing i want with regards to atmosphere, intakes that pick up the resource(s) thats in the atmosphere instead of just checking for oxygen and spawning intake air. the choice between air and not air doesn't lend itself to many mission options. instead every planet has an amospheric model, like the International Standard Atmosphere. in addition to the pressure and temperature data such a model discribes, you can also throw down atmospheric composition and variations through the atmosphere (and possibly the hydrosphere too). im actually rather surprised that kethane/firespitter doesn't have this.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Nuke

[Shna_na]

Bear in mind the following facts for contrast: On Earth, 3 parachutes are usually used to safely land a command module. In KSP that number is one parachute. This, to me, says that KSP's atmosphere is more effective than in real life. Therefore 5 atm is probably somewhere a lot higher. Either way, Venus' atmospheric pressure is enough to crush a craft, and Mars' atmosphere makes parachutes near-redundant. KSP is a game, with some simulation thrown in there, and having atmospheres like this would give it an even steeper learning curve and an even higher difficulty. Sure, SQUAD does try to make the game realistic where it still makes the game fun to play, but they realise that sometimes realism just makes things a task. I'd like the current atmospheres to remain as they are.

[NERVAfan]

Either way, Venus' atmospheric pressure is enough to crush a craft,

Well, stuff has been landed on Venus and functioned (briefly) on the surface. The pressure is certainly a problem, but I'm not sure that's what actually killed them -- there's also the extreme temperature and lack of power (clouds are too thick for solar panels).

and Mars' atmosphere makes parachutes near-redundant.

Well, Mars landers do use them though... sure, you can't land on parachutes alone on Mars, granted.

KSP is a game, with some simulation thrown in there, and having atmospheres like this would give it an even steeper learning curve and an even higher difficulty.

I'm not necessarily suggesting changing Duna's atmosphere. Just that there should be a really thin atmosphere somewhere -- maybe Tylo or Vall, or a totally new body.

[vger]

I've thought about this on more than one occasion. It would give us an excuse to send a couple extra science instruments. Sometimes a little color on the horizon just adds a little something to the scenery though, even if its impact on flight is minimal.

That said... on the topic of thick atmospheres, is there a reason they won't work with the KSP physics?

TBH I would like to have such a planet. There need to be things that REALLY require some deviant vessel design for a successful mission. Perhaps even going as far as blocking radio signals so that you lose contact with the probe, thereby forcing a risky Kerb'd mission to see what's down there.

A body with cloud cover thick enough to interfere with solar power would be cool too. Imagine a world that had to be explored in total darkness, demanding creative solutions to powering the lander.

Edited March 30, 2014 by vger

[Alex_Leonardo]

That sounds ready made for aircraft, even better if it's a jet-friendly atmo. Maybe when they add the rumored second gas giant it will be one of the satellites.

I still can't figure out if jool is a saturn or jupiter analogue.

It doesn't have rings but in the order of planets, it would be saturn.

[vger]

I still can't figure out if jool is a saturn or jupiter analogue.

It doesn't have rings but in the order of planets, it would be saturn.

I feel like Jool is Jupiter, even if that is just based on the name similarity. It just may be lacking more interesting stripe patterns because gas giants are underdeveloped so far.

And if it is meant to be Saturn... it had better get a ring system.

[vger]

<<<bloody doublepost>>>

[CaptRobau]

I still can't figure out if jool is a saturn or jupiter analogue.

It doesn't have rings but in the order of planets, it would be saturn.

The order of planets? After Mars (Duna) and dwarf planet Ceres (Dres) comes Jupiter. Also the way Jools first three moons are set match the orbital characteristics of Jupiter's large moons Europa, Tycho and Io.

[Javster]

Kerbin's atmosphere is very thick even compared to Earth.

[vger]

Kerbin's atmosphere is very thick even compared to Earth.

That's probably due to the oversimplified aerodynamics engine than anything else. They wanted it easy enough to get planes in the air even if your airfoil is ugly.

[Red Iron Crown]

That's probably due to the oversimplified aerodynamics engine than anything else. They wanted it easy enough to get planes in the air even if your airfoil is ugly.

The aerodynamic model predated aircraft being added to the game, as I recall C7's mod for aircraft parts exploited the control surface code. If aircraft had been intended from the start I think we'd have had a better model from the get go.

[Jouni]

Kerbin's atmosphere isn't that thick. Our rockets just are flat pancakes, regardless of how the game draws then. For example, a 100-tonne rocket is a flat disc 32 meters wide that always points its broad side prograde.

[LethalDose]

Bear in mind the following facts for contrast: On Earth, 3 parachutes are usually used to safely land a command module. In KSP that number is one parachute. This, to me, says that KSP's atmosphere is more effective than in real life. Therefore 5 atm is probably somewhere a lot higher. Either way, Venus' atmospheric pressure is enough to crush a craft, and Mars' atmosphere makes parachutes near-redundant. KSP is a game, with some simulation thrown in there, and having atmospheres like this would give it an even steeper learning curve and an even higher difficulty. Sure, SQUAD does try to make the game realistic where it still makes the game fun to play, but they realise that sometimes realism just makes things a task. I'd like the current atmospheres to remain as they are.

Kerbals and their rockets are smaller than humans, so kerbal command modules and human command modules can't really be compared. Besides, it's a game with modeled physics, not actual physics. There's actually been a lot of discussion about how IRL rockets start their gravity turn almost immediately, while on kerbin it's much more efficient to ascend straight up for 10 km, then turn because the lower atmo is so thick.

i really want a titan analogue. the odd combo of thick atmo, but low gravity.

In the KSP wiki's entry on the proposed second gas planet (GP2), there were plans for a high atmospheric density satellite "Fonso". However, I think a lot of this was from NovaSilisko while he was a KSP dev (he no longer is). I'm not sure what happened to a lot of his ideas after he left, and I havent seen any mention of GP2 from the devs in a very long time, so Fonso may never make it into the game.

Kerbin's atmosphere isn't that thick. Our rockets just are flat pancakes, regardless of how the game draws then. For example, a 100-tonne rocket is a flat disc 32 meters wide that always points its broad side prograde.

Maybe the way you build them. My 200 ton rockets are <10 m wide.

I still can't figure out if jool is a saturn or jupiter analogue.

It doesn't have rings but in the order of planets, it would be saturn.

Like CaptRobau stated above, you're probably missing Ceres/Dres. In the solar system its Mars-Ceres-Jupiter, in the Kerbol system its Duna-Dres-Jool

[vger]

Like CaptRobau stated above, you're probably missing Ceres/Dres. In the solar system its Mars-Ceres-Jupiter, in the Kerbol system its Duna-Dres-Jool

Heh, yeah. It's not the among the first things that people think of as a significant object, especially in the wake of Pluto's humiliation. And we still have the absence of a couple other gas giants to make us wonder even more. Treating Eeloo as a Pluto analogue further confuses the issue. Eeloo 'crosses' Jool's orbit. Pluto crosses Neptune, not Jupiter.

[Pthigrivi]

I'm just really excited for another planet. Id bet there will be some thin and thick atmo moons around it. Just from a standpoint of gameplay I rather like the way things are calibrated at the moment for the planets. If youre really precise and careful you can absolutely use Duna's atmosphere for aerocapture and aerobraking, (at about 10-12k I've found) and even though you need thrusters at the last minute with a shallow decent chutes can absorb a huge amount of dV. I feel like if Duna's amto was any thinner it would cease to be useful, which from a gameplay standpoint is really what's important about it. Eve is a real challenge, and wimpy part of me thinks maybe it's slightly too much of a challenge, but hey, leaving something thats really difficult for people to strive for is huge.

But yeah. I want a Titan analog. And when they get geysers going a Triton as well.

[vger]

But yeah. I want a Titan analog. And when they get geysers going a Triton as well.

Europa, all the way.

[NERVAfan]

Maybe the way you build them. My 200 ton rockets are <10 m wide.

Yeah, but the KSP drag model doesn't really give you "credit" for that. The fake cross-sectional area in the KSP drag model is calculated from mass... not actual area... http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Atmosphere#Drag

[Random Tank]

Vall is Europa; it matches it pretty much perfectly! Also, Tylo is Ganymede, and Lathye is slightly similar Io (they do have similarities, like the fact they have molten cores and are/will have geothermal activity). So yeah, Jool is Jupiter.

Shame there isn't a Callisto analogue...

I want a Titan too... Actually just add the Saturn system please!

More atmospheres? I think Moho should get one; not very thick, maybe half/third as thick as Duna; so you can AeroBrake a bit, but it's still powered landings (parachutes wouldn't be worth the extra weight ). Also, it would be cool if its atmosphere made engines overheat faster (like it used to) as it would act as a magnifying glass for Kerbol's heat. Also, more moholes would really awesome too!

Edited March 30, 2014 by Random Tank