Collecting science from the Mun

[daniu]

Currently working through Career Mode...

How do/did you go about grinding science from the Mun?

What I've done is establish a small station (Lab/Fuel craft) in Mun orbit and planned to use a lander to perform experiments, go back to the station to transmit, clean experiments and refuel, repeat (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=243188592). That way, I wanted to avoid having to do the full Kerbin/Mun travel for each Biome.

However, turns out that the MLP improvement to the science points for transmitted is so small that I'll still have to land 8 times or so per Biome, so that's not worth it.

Now I'm thinking about landing an MLP at each Biome, perform the available experiments with a small lander to recover the Kerbals with.

Another way would be to make the whole Lab able to lift off and reuse for the next Biome... But it's quite heavy so that may be a problem fuel-wise.

Or I don't use a lab at all and just do the trips there and back (with a fuel station in Mun orbit, that paid off in my setup).

What are your thoughts and experiences?

EDIT:

So it turns out I must have done something wrong, the experiment data can be collected on EVA after all, so my concept works fine.

Can recommend it actually, much more fun than doing a full Mun trip from KSC for each Mun Biome.

Edited March 31, 2014 by daniu

[Alchemist]

use a lander to perform experiments, go back to the station to transmit, clean experiments and refuel, repeat

you don't have to transmit. EVA to collect the data and store in the return vehicle. Then reset what needed and go down again and again. You can store multiple instances of the same experiment if that's done in different biomes.

Or what I did (partially for roleplay reasons): take double set of data, transmit one and store the other to return to Kerbin

[Tex_NL]

I did something similar to that on Minmus. But instead of transmitting I collected the data from multiple biomes into a single capsule (you can do this either through EVA or through mods) and brought that back to Kerbin. You will not get instant science points after each biome but the total will be more.

It also pays to carry not just two goo canisters but also two material bays.

[daniu]

you don't have to transmit. EVA to collect the data and store in the return vehicle. Then reset what needed and go down again and again. You can store multiple instances of the same experiment if that's done in different biomes.

That's what I thought, but when I went EVA when docked, the "collect data" wasn't there... so I thought it was only possible when landed. So I must have done something wrong; do I have to go close to the (eg) Goo container, right-click the Kerbal and the option should be there? I probably also need a ladder to be on to do that, I don't have enough I guess.

[Streetwind]

I have a Mun rocket capable of launching three landers at once. The transfer stage will insert into a polar orbit, and decouple one lander at a time when it passes over a biome I still need. Each lander touches down, performs all five science experiments (materials bay, goo, accelerometer, gravioli, thermometer) and collects EVA and crew reports, then takes off again and returns to Kerbin under its own power.

Since the Mun has 15 biomes, I just need 5 launches to get all the science. And since Minmus has 9 biomes and actually takes less dV to land and return, I can use three launches of the same design for that too.

[Temstar]

For sample return from the orbital lab you can use a small purpose built craft instead of a more general purpose spacecraft:

Of course using such crafts make having a orbital lab kind of redundant, but I like to RP it and pretend I HAVE to do analysis for the sample on orbit before returning. I like to think that the Kerbals are testing samples for harmful microbes that might invade Kerbin's biosphere.

One further way to cut down the fuel cost for mass science collection is to use an open air lander:

Go down to the surface, do your science and then take off to meet back with the orbital lab when it comes around on the next orbit. The Apollo EVA suit has 6.5 hour of life support, so I figure it's quite reasonable to expect Kerbal suits to be able to last at the least 2 hours required for a quick mission like this.

If you have multiple biomes close together you can even do a thing where a large lander goes down carrying one of these open air landers. Then once the science is done on the primary site the Kerbals hop onto the small lander, take off and do a suborbital hop to a nearby biome, do science there, do another suborbital hop back to the main lander and than take off:

Instead of driving for hours with a rover, a suborbital hop is only 3-4 minutes each way, that's quicker than a run to the shops!

Edited March 29, 2014 by Temstar

[Alchemist]

That's what I thought, but when I went EVA when docked, the "collect data" wasn't there... so I thought it was only possible when landed. So I must have done something wrong; do I have to go close to the (eg) Goo container, right-click the Kerbal and the option should be there? I probably also need a ladder to be on to do that, I don't have enough I guess.

Just fly near the experiment and right-click it (the experiment not the kerbal). If it has data the option to take that will appear. Ladder is not needed.

[Superfluous J]

That's what I thought, but when I went EVA when docked, the "collect data" wasn't there... so I thought it was only possible when landed. So I must have done something wrong; do I have to go close to the (eg) Goo container, right-click the Kerbal and the option should be there? I probably also need a ladder to be on to do that, I don't have enough I guess.

The only thing I can think is that you were not close enough to the experiment. You have to be ridiculously close to the science lab, for instance, to collect the data. I think the Kerbal has to get his head inside or something to get it.

I tested my Munar Lander on the launchpad to verify that my Kerbal could reach all of the experiments from the ladder. He had to go up and down for the goo and science jr, but he could reach them all without getting off. That made collecting science from the instruments much easier.

And yeah, never ever transmit. You should be able to clear out a biome of science in one landing. I personally just take one reading with each instrument while landed, do one EVA report from the ladder and another from the ground, do the surface sample, and then take one final gravioli reading while taking off. I collect all the data and store it in the pod when it's convenient (on the ground for everything but that last gravioli reading which waits until I'm docked). I don't get *all* the science, but I get so much that not getting all the science isn't a big deal.

I did my last big push on Mun. 8 biomes got me over 6000 science and took a couple hours of what turned out to be very fun work.

[Panzerbeard]

For sample return from the orbital lab you can use a small purpose built craft instead of a more general purpose spacecraft:

http://i58.tinypic.com/k30vhw.jpg

Of course using such crafts make having a orbital lab kind of redundant, but I like to RP it and pretend I HAVE to do analysis for the sample on orbit before returning. I like to think that the Kerbals are testing samples for harmful microbes that might invade Kerbin's biosphere.

I can't really see from that angle, but do you have 2 909's on that lander? How have you attached them like that?

[Temstar]

1. Attach some number of BZ-52 Radial Attachment Point on the bottom of your tank

2. Attach engines to radial attachment points

Also works with Cubic Octagonal Strut:

[Panzerbeard]

1. Attach some number of BZ-52 Radial Attachment Point on the bottom of your tank

2. Attach engines to radial attachment points

Also works with Cubic Octagonal Strut:

http://i59.tinypic.com/111tlpk.jpg

That actually never occurred to me.. thanks!

[chrisb2e9]

Currently working through Career Mode...

How do/did you go about grinding science from the Mun?

What are your thoughts and experiences?

I make the biggest lander I can get into orbit. And if i have docking ports, I also send a second ship to refuel.

the lander has one of each science experiment.

after the experiments are done, i eva the kerbal and collect the data.

I make sure to have an antenna to send crew reports as you lose no science when sending them.

After doing and collecting science in one biome, I relocate to the next biome. making short jumps, until i am low on fuel.

when i really get fancy, i design the lander to have disposable fuel tanks. so that as they get empty, I can drop them. still be able to take off and land. and keep doing more science in different biomes.

[capi3101]

Personally, I used '>Geschosskopf's method and targeted Minmus more than Mün simply because the way I understand it experiments are worth more Science there. Naturally, as far as picking technologies went I made a beeline for the Gravioli Detector as soon as I had all the Tier 3 techs, solar panels and fuel ducts. You can max out the Science if you have access to all the instruments. Priorities then were nuclear engines, heavy rockets, probes, spaceplanes and rovers; you can play that last bit by ear to suit your own gaming style, though.

My order of unlocking techs: Start >> Basic rocketry >> Survivabity >> Stability >> General Rocketry >> Gen Construction >> Sci Tech >> Flight Control >> Adv Rocketry >> Electrics >> Fuel Systems >> Adv Electrics >> Adv Exploration >> Electronics >> Adv sci tech >> Space Exploration >> Heavy Rocketry >> Adv construction >> Heavier rocketry >> Specialized control >> Nuclear propulsion >> Landing >> Advanced Landing >> Specialized Construction >> Advanced Metalworks >> Composites >> Meta materials >> Precision engineering >> Unmanned tech >> Large probes >> Large control >> Very heavy rocketry >> Large electrics >> Specialized Electrics >> Aerodynamics >> Adv flight control >> Supersonic flight >> High alt flight >> Adv aerodynamics >> Hypersonic flight >> Field science >> Adv motors >> Heavy aerodynamics >> Adv unmanned tech >> Ion propulsion.

Only had to hit the two moons about a dozen times before I had enough to go on the Ike/Gilly excursions, and there was enough from those to round out the tech tree for me.

[daniu]

I have a Mun rocket capable of launching three landers at once. The transfer stage will insert into a polar orbit, and decouple one lander at a time when it passes over a biome I still need. Each lander touches down, performs all five science experiments (materials bay, goo, accelerometer, gravioli, thermometer) and collects EVA and crew reports, then takes off again and returns to Kerbin under its own power.

That's certainly in the spirit of my trying to minimize launches, good idea

What does your lander look like? Mine is already having a hard time landing from and getting back into a 35 km Mun orbit, I'm sure there's lot of room for improvement there.

For sample return from the orbital lab you can use a small purpose built craft instead of a more general purpose spacecraft:

Of course using such crafts make having a orbital lab kind of redundant

Well you still have to reset the experiments (which for me was the main point of putting it there in the first place).

In my design, the command module of the lab part can be split off for returning the experiment results (including the lander crewman, left one space empty in the Mk1-2).

One further way to cut down the fuel cost for mass science collection is to use an open air lander [...]

Haha that thing is so cute!

Doesn't have the materials bay though, so I'd still be missing out on experiments.

[Streetwind]

That's certainly in the spirit of my trying to minimize launches, good idea

What does your lander look like? Mine is already having a hard time landing from and getting back into a 35 km Mun orbit, I'm sure there's lot of room for improvement there.

Pictures:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44754370/screenshot14.png - Stack of three landers inside the fairing of the Munraker XI rocket

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44754370/screenshot15.png - On the launchpad, right side with thermometer and communotron

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44754370/screenshot16.png - On the launchpad, left side with gravioli detector and accelerometer

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44754370/screenshot17.png - On the launchpad, front with landing spotlight and life support canister

Now obviously this was done with some mods installed. However, the basic principle is still valid with stock parts. You want a low center of mass and a wide stance, so that you don't risk tipping over on landing. Thus I put the lander can in the bottom middle and used quad side-mounted fuel tanks. They have little engines at the bottom, which takes less space than one central engine below the lander can. Up top I put the materials bay and the goo canister. That latter one requires some tinkering, because it unbalances the craft. I ended up using the life support canister as a counterweight on the other side, but if you play without mods than you'll need to find a different solution for the off-center weight (possibly work with the parachute placement). Obviously if you only have one lander you can put the goo canister on top, but with stacked landers you need that spot for a decoupler. Notice how the decoupler is flipped upside down, so that it sticks to the underside instead of to the top and thus contributes to keeping the center of mass low.

My landing legs look a little funny because I needed to fit them inside the diameter of the fairing. With stock parts you don't have that problem and can mount them however you want.

I'm using two mini-RTGs for power; without mods, put solar panels there. One on each side is plenty, as the only thing that consumes power on this thing is the reaction wheel of the lander can. The antenna can be used to transmit crew/EVA reports so you don't have to wait for the return, but ultimately it's optional.

For engines, I think that lander has a grand total of either 20 or 24 kN of thrust; I forget if each engine was 5 or 6. But the point is, you can work with the Rockomax 48-7S here and easily get away with only using two engines (even that will give you 60 kN, almost three times what my lander has). Mount them diagonally and use fuel lines to feed fuel from those tanks that don't have engines into those that do. It will still be symmetric.

Now, the fuel tanks can get somewhat annoying with stock parts because you don't have a proper elongated 0.625m tank. You'll have to stack Oscar-B's. Also try and make use of the toroidal tanks on the ends, they have less dry mass per fuel, meaning you get more dV. As for how much fuel you'll need in total, you need to experiment as the mass ratio and engine Isp will be different from my configuration.

The most important part to save fuel though: don't bother with a 35km orbit, that costs too much fuel. The highest elevation on the Mun is 7km high, so an orbit between 8km and 10km is perfectly sufficient (and maximizes what little Oberth effect the low gravity can give you). Then comes knowing how to return to Kerbin in the most efficient fashion: circularize at that altitude in an orbit that intersects the points where the Mun's own orbit lines hit the surface. In most cases, that works by launching towards the 90° heading, no matter where you are on the Mun (but practice this). Then make a maneuver node to plan your ejection burn, and eject fully retrograde. This should be the last burn you need to perform, as you can get your Kerbin periapsis to ca. 30km directly from that maneuver node. Moving the node itself around helps you find the position where this costs the least amount of dV.

Then you just coast home and perform reentry. Two radial parachutes slow the craft down for landing.

Notice the two little fuel tanks stacked on top of the long ones, though? Yeah, that was necessary after the first trial run revealed that I was short on fuel. This design really is cutting it close for the Mun, and I need to pilot it properly to get it home. Don't be afraid to throw a little more fuel at the problem just to be safe, you have more engine thrust anyway. On Minmus, this lander works quite comfortably because it needs less fuel to land and return.

(Mods used: RLA Stockalike, RLA Power Generation and TAC Life Support. For the Munraker XI, also KW Rocketry. I am proud to say however that no part clipping is required whatsoever.)

Edited March 29, 2014 by Streetwind

[LethalDose]

take double set of data, transmit one and store the other to return to Kerbin

I've done the same thing, except I collect one set for lab cleaning and transmission, and one set for return.

[Starstrider42]

Pictures:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44754370/screenshot14.png - Stack of three landers inside the fairing of the Munraker XI rocket

Streetwind, which mod is the fairing from? It looks a lot nicer than the Procedural Fairings ones.

[Streetwind]

KW Rocketry. It's a 2.5m expanded fairing base.