Why didn't West Germany start a space program in the 70s or 80s?

[szputnyik]

It had the strongest economy is Europe, if the Soviet Union could do it, so could the Germans.

Or was it banned for them because of the general disarmament of both Germanies after WW2, and that they were technically still under Allied invasion until the Reunification in 1990?

[DaveofDefeat]

When you have soviets staring at you from across the border you spend less time worrying about space and more time worrying about the 1000 tanks ready to knock down your door.

[Kryten]

They did. It's called 'ESA'.

[TheShadow1138]

The Allied Occupation ended in 1949. I think the simplest answer is that they had far more to concern themselves with than building a space program, though West Germany was one of the founding nations of the European Space Agency, so one could say that in a way Germany did develop a space program (though not an independent one) in the 70s.

[einsteiner]

A West German company called OTRAG was developing rockets in the late 70's & early 80's. They wanted to make small rockets that could be really cheap and would be bundled together to make larger rockets.

[Kerbin Dallas Multipass]

West Germany never acted as a middle power like UK/France/Japan frequently did. Nationalism and projects aimed at prestige never had a good standing in Germany. Germany never aimed for direct control of nuclear weapons, so there was no incentive for a larger scale national rocketry program (nuclear powers usually have those).

Instead, they used their space money for co-operations with European countries and NASA. This guaranteed diplomatic goodwill, was a proof of concept that something like the EU should be established and tightened the bond to the US. It's how german foreign politics work.

The deal between GER and NASA was basically that Germany builds a component (it was the space shuttle's spacelab) for free and NASA gives some german astronauts a free ride and research time. Not such a bad deal. Why build a whole space program if you can use an existing infrastructure.

I don't know enough about the history of the Ariane rocket, but i'm assuming it was the germans who pushed for it being a european project. It was done this way with Airbus.

[einsteiner]

The OTRAG Wikipedia article says France and Russia pressured the company to stop working on their rocket. It was probably similar pressure that stopped the government from even considering a space program, it's just harder to pressure private companies.

[Idobox]

West Germany never acted as a middle power like UK/France/Japan frequently did. Nationalism and projects aimed at prestige never had a good standing in Germany. Germany never aimed for direct control of nuclear weapons, so there was no incentive for a larger scale national rocketry program (nuclear powers usually have those).

(...)

I don't know enough about the history of the Ariane rocket, but i'm assuming it was the germans who pushed for it being a european project. It was done this way with Airbus.

Nitpicking, but it is important to differentiate West and East Germany, the Third Reich and reunited Germany. I think it's obvious you mean West Germany every time you say Germany, but sentences like "Germany never aimed for direct control of nuclear weapons" make me cringe.

The third Reich invested a lot in nationalism, prestige, rockets and nuclear weapons. Which explains why West and reunited Germany is very cautious about these things.

Ariane started with blue streak, the expensive and crappy UK ballistic missile. When they saw it would never be a decent missile, they tried to turn it into a European launcher, with lots of help from France and Germany. When the program failed because of absurd European administrative monstrosities, UK wanted to spend their budget on sending satellites on US rockets, the Germans on Spacelab. But the French were really keen on having their own launcher (it's about the time we got out of NATO), and US restrictions were so limiting we managed to convince UK, Germany and a few others to help us pay for the development cost, but it was still 60% French.

The German never really pushed to have a launcher, it was France trying to get as many people on board to share costs and risks, but not too much to keep it centralized and under French control.

[Nibb31]

Germany indeed has a space program through ESA, and lots of expertise in building high tech space hardware. The Columbus Control Center is in Oberpfaffenhofen and the ATV is designed and assembled at EADS Astrium (now called Airbus Space) in Bremen.

What Germany doesn't have is a rocket program. There are 2 main reasons for a country to build rockets:

- To increase national prestige

- To gain ICBM technology

You've got to understand that after WWI and WWII, notions like "nationalism" and "patriotism" became dirty words. Germany was completely wiped out after WWII. Its population was beaten, humiliated, and most of all traumatically ashamed by what it had caused. In the wake of WWII, the last thing the German people (and the Allied occupation forces) wanted was to hear about national pride. As a consequence, West Germany took a low profile on international affairs and concentrated on rebuilding the country and the economy.

Because of this, and also because the Allies imposed weapon restrictions, West Germany had no incentive to build nuclear weapons. In fact, because the country was traumatised by the destruction and casualties of two World Wars, the German population is mostly pacifist and opposed to nuclear power, which explains why the Green movement originated there. No nuclear weapons means no need for ICBMs.

Finally, there's probably two smaller practical factors. First, Germany is densely populated and has no ex-colonial overseas territories near the equator like the UK or France, so it doesn't have access to any decent launch locations. Second, most of Germany's rocketry assets were captured by the Allies after WWII and its rocket scientists ended up working for the USA or the USSR.

[KASASpace]

Well, they didn't exactly have a good latitude.....

[Klingon Admiral]

Funnily enough, there currently is a lot of argueing within ESA about the future of the Ariane rocket family, with France and Italy prefering the Ariane 6, while Germany supports the Ariane 5 ME proposal.

[szputnyik]

Well, they didn't exactly have a good latitude.....

Neither the Soviets. Baikonur is nowhere near the Equator. The Germans could have built a space center in Travemünde, because it's next to the sea, not in a heavily populated area, it could serve as a homage to the then East German-occupied Peenemünde, the original launch complex, and the proximity of the East German border would ensure a good place in the propaganda war, with GDR border guards regularily seeing West German rockets lift off.

[karolus10]

Truth is that West Germany had created German Aerospace Center(Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt) in 1969.

Also Germany like other west European countries joined common effort and become member of European Space Agency (that is successor of 2 European space organisations existing before ESA).

EDIT_1: Ariane 6 is designed to be cheaper rocket for satellite lunches and "old" Ariane 5 is more complex but man rated. ESA was designing own, small shuttle but project lost funding after challenger disaster.

Edited April 5, 2014 by karolus10

[*Aqua*]

Neither the Soviets. Baikonur is nowhere near the Equator. The Germans could have built a space center in Travemünde, because it's next to the sea, not in a heavily populated area, it could serve as a homage to the then East German-occupied Peenemünde, the original launch complex, and the proximity of the East German border would ensure a good place in the propaganda war, with GDR border guards regularily seeing West German rockets lift off.

Travemünde? Srsly? So if they shoot up a manned rocket and it had an emergency, the pilots would had to bail out over GDR or PRL. Expect weeks and months before the authorities allow them to go back to Western Germany. But only after intensive interrogations of the pilots. And if they aren't dead sentenced for doing 'infiltration' and 'being foreign agents'. Yes, east authorities were that paranoid back then.

Btw the GDR would have been happy if West Germany launched rockets from Travemünde. They could have studied the rockets to get to know all the technology. Cheap R&D!

It also wouldn't work as propaganda. East German civilians weren't allowed to get near the border without special permission. There was a several kilometers thick dead zone before the border with mines, patrols and all that stuff.

West Germany had better things to do. East and West Germany knew they would be the battleground of a third world war. They did a lot to not let it happen. Although both sides took preparations for war. East Germany had enough ammunitions on store to fuel a attack by several soviet armies(!) pushing to as far as to the Atlantic ocean. (Yeah, enough ammo for >20.000 tanks, millions of soldiers and thousands of planes!) West Germany prepared for an US-led nuclear strike on its own(!) territory to halt a soviet attack if it went more than 50 km beyond the borders. They all were stupid back then.

[hugix]

Germany (and Europe) did want to go to space. ESA is the result oof that.

The reason ESA / Germany doesn't have a own manned vehicle s because of the space shuttle hype. Why build your own craft when you can hitch a ride aboard the American space shuttle? A perfect example of this is the first non american / Russian to go into space... the west German Ulf Merbold. In my space memorabillia collection I have a copy of the Dutch magazine 'Kijk', with an article 10 years after APollo 17 and a few years before the shuttle. Now in hindsght, you would laugh your behind off if you read what the shuttle would do....

[Kryten]

If it was just 'space shuttle hype', why do ESA still show no real interest in indpendent crewed flight programs? None of the post-shuttle studies have got past the concept stage, and right now there's no work occurring even on concepts.

[Nibb31]

There simply is no push for a manned European space program. Our space program is geared towards subsidizing EADS, Thales-Alenia, and the rest of the space industry. ESA is strongly oriented toward a lean technological-return/budget ratio, and human spaceflight takes a back seat when unmanned science/technology programs have the best bang for the buck.

A manned space program wouldn't necessarily create more jobs for the industry. On one hand it would shift areas of expertise, but on the other hand, it would be expensive and probably generate less launch and hardware contracts.

[jwenting]

They did. It's called 'ESA'.

that's the French space program. Funded like all other French programs of the last several decades by the British, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, And Danes.

[Kerbin Dallas Multipass]

A perfect example of this is the first non american / Russian to go into space... the west German Ulf Merbold.

First German in space was East German Siegmund Jähn in 78, the third non US/Soviet. Merbold flew 5 years later.

[Nibb31]

that's the French space program. Funded like all other French programs of the last several decades by the British, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, And Danes.

Why don't you go stuff yourself with hamburgers, coke, and freedom fries like a Real American instead of boring people here with your jingoistic criticism of everything that isn't "Rah Rah Americah".

Alternatively, you could actually educate yourself and try travelling abroad to get a real sense of what the world is like beyond US borders instead of relying whatever Sarah Palin sees from her front door or whatever misinformed sources you're using to forge an opinion.

The major contributors of ESA are Germany, France, Italy, and the UK. It also happens that the major contractors that benefit from ESA money are those same 4 countries. How is that any worse than the situation in the US, where Florida, Texas, and California get the biggest shares of NASA's budget, which is paid by federal taxpayers from all states?

Edited April 6, 2014 by Nibb31

[sal_vager]

jwenting, your troll is showing, you might want to do something about that

[Idobox]

that's the French space program. Funded like all other French programs of the last several decades by the British, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, And Danes.

Basic trolling, but not completely wrong.

ESA and Ariane were pushed by France when we didn't have the budget to do it alone.

Our nuclear technology is ours alone and better, despite all the US did to stop us, our defense industry is one of the best (see the helicopter carriers you didn't want us to sell to the Russians, or our stealth frigates), our TGV was financed by us alone, and every time we team up with other European countries, we get better technology for cheaper (Airbus, Ariane, Concorde).

Oh, and we have one of the highest life expectancy and quality of life in the world, because of, you know, having healthcare and cheap education instead of Pizza hut ads in schoolbooks, NRA and the Westboro church.

[jwenting]

jwenting, your troll is showing, you might want to do something about that

if the truth is considered trolling, there's something seriously wrong with the world... ESA is French, not German (90% of its funding goes to Arianespace, a French company, and the rest is allocated along national lines with the majority of the people hired being French), and is mostly funded not by France but by the nations I mentioned.

And oh, I'm the one most qualified to know, being European, unlike the American kids who seem to think anyone who doesn't like the EU must be an American and not know what they're talking about as a result of being an American.

Now how's THAT for an attitude.

Our nuclear technology is ours alone and better, despite all the US did to stop us, our defense industry is one of the best (see the helicopter carriers you didn't want us to sell to the Russians, or our stealth frigates),

a carrier that contains American and British technology, which is why it couldn't be sold to the Soviets. French defense industry is the joke of the world, only exporting to former colonies pretty much.

(Airbus, Ariane, Concorde).

Airbus: German engineering, British engines, Spanish materials.

Ariane: based on a British rocket their government could no longer afford to fund

Concorde: British engineering and engines.

Nice French marketing campaigns though, with lots of wine and cheese paid for out of EU subsidies.

[Superluminaut]

I made a video on the German rocket a few months ago.

[Lordherrmann]

It seems like ESA has specialized in developing hardware for the manned US space program instead of starting their own. I had the honor to have the aforementioned Ulf Merbold as a guide while writing a scientific paper, so I was able to meet him several times. He flew on STS-9, which was the first mission of the european space lab. I think this was the foundation of the asmerican-european cooperation in space. Now Europe will build Orion's service module.

Germany itself was devastated after WW2. We had to rebuild the nation, while it was also split in two seperate nations. The 70s and 80s were mostly ruled by the chancellors Willy Brandt and Helmut Schmidt. They both stood for a new politic. They wanted to ease the tensions between the two German states. A full fletched space program would have sent the wrong signals.