is it possible to make an engne that runs on pure electricity?

[Deadpangod3]

ok so forget realism for a moment, is there any way to make an engine that runs on only electricity?

if so can someone show me how?

[Nuke]

have a generator create a resource that has density (as it does with the rtg). also have a small tank (a unit or two should be enough) for that resource built into the engine. then have the engine use that resource and electricity. make sure the generator can create the resource faster than the engine can burn it. for best result make sure the resource you create works like solid fuel (no transfer, no cross-feeding).

[Deadpangod3]

i meant use electric charge like what solar panels produce.

[Nuke]

the other resource which the engine pulls out of nowhere just gives you some fake mass to throw out the back. you can make it drain as much energy as you like (just set it up like an ion engine, cept use new resource instead of xenon). law of the minimum.

you can call the resource 'quantumStuff' and call it a q thruster.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Nuke

[Deadpangod3]

ok, i think i understood that,

so i can make it so the engine drains this "mass" while it only uses the electricity?

so the mass thing is optional?

[Nuke]

just make it small enough mass to be irrelevant. im giving it a test right now.

e:

it works. heres the stuff from my config

	//make quantum stuff
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleGenerator
		isAlwaysActive = true
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			name = QuantumStuff
			rate = 10
		}	
	}
	//store quantum stuff
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = QuantumStuff
		amount = 0.0
		maxAmount = 1.0
	}
	//burn quantum stuff
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleEngines
		thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
		exhaustDamage = True
		ignitionThreshold = 0.1
		minThrust = 0
		maxThrust = 10
		heatProduction = 500
		fxOffset = 0, 0, 0.0286353
		PROPELLANT
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			ratio = 10
		}
		PROPELLANT
		{
			name = QuantumStuff
			ratio = 0.1
			DrawGauge = True
		}
		atmosphereCurve
		{
			key = 0 1000
			key = 1 100
		}
	}

and you need this in your resources.cfg

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
	name = QuantumStuff
	density = 0.001
	flowMode = NO_FLOW
	transfer = NONE
	isTweakable = false
}

quantum stuff is essentially being treated like solid fuel, except you have a generator keeping the tank full. so long as the tank stays full, you can just ignore it and only concern yourself with the electricity. if you start running out of quantum stuff, increase the rate of the generator, or tweak the charge/qstuff ratio. this ran nicely off of about 10 large solar panels though.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Nuke

[NathanKell]

Just to repeat: in KSP, all engines need to have at least one propellant with density>0 or put another way all engines need to shoot mass out the back for any thrust to occur. If you make an engine that only uses massless (density = 0) resources, you won't get any thrust.

[Nuke]

Just to repeat: in KSP, all engines need to have at least one propellant with density>0 or put another way all engines need to shoot mass out the back for any thrust to occur. If you make an engine that only uses massless (density = 0) resources, you won't get any thrust.

even if you have to pull it out of the aether with module generator

[Capt. Hunt]

Even in real life, all rocket motors work by pushing stuff out of one end, this gives it the equal and opposite reaction that provides forward momentum. Whether it's xenon ions, superheated hydrogen plasma or small rodents, it has to eject something, there is no such thing as a reaction-less engine.

[xrayfishx]

Straying from the original topic, would it be possible in real life? Electricity has mass, but can you use it to generate any thrust?

[KerbMav]

Anyone with a doctorate in particle/material physics up for answering this question:

If the solar panels generate electricity (moving electrons) and the electrons in question would be pulled free from the circuits (to be used like the quantum stuff above) and would be accelerated like in an ion engine, how much thrust could be generated and how much "fuel" (electric currents move electrons in the material itself, generators only induce this movement, they do not generate electrons/new matter) would be available?

[Kialar]

Imagine the following:

One does use solar energy to move electrons (what you effectively don't do, you generate a electromagnetic wave in the conduction band of the material, the electron instead moves very slowly itself)

Then you break free the (very slowly moving) electron from the circuit and use it as reaction mass.

The resulting energy would be quite low, as the electron in fact does not inherit a high kinetic energy.

In the end, one charges the circuit positive, because it loses negative electrons.

At this point the electron is pulled "backward" to the circiut (opposites attract, you get the point).

With a net acceleration of zero for the whole system (if you ignore photon pressure and solar sail effects).

The probabillity for an electron to "spawn" due quantum fluctuation withhin the circuit is neglible. So sorry, I doubt such an engine would work at all.

But I might be wrong. Clever people said a Diesel-Motor would be impossible to build. Reallity proves the other way around.

-Kia

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kialar
wrong vocabualary...., and spelling..., if anyone finds more errors, it is not my fault, it is my brain....

[WaveFunctionP]

Anyone with a doctorate in particle/material physics up for answering this question:

If the solar panels generate electricity (moving electrons) and the electrons in question would be pulled free from the circuits (to be used like the quantum stuff above) and would be accelerated like in an ion engine, how much thrust could be generated and how much "fuel" (electric currents move electrons in the material itself, generators only induce this movement, they do not generate electrons/new matter) would be available?

Option 1: Make a huge laser and give a metric crapload of energy. The photos accelerate away from the ship, conservation of momentum means your lazer goes the opposite direction.

option 2: Create a powerful electric field. With one "end" pointed against a "thrust plate", the other "end" pointed in the opposite direction. Quantum fluctuations cause charged particles to either accelerate and strike your thrust plate or accelerate away from your field. Both actions produce "thrust".

[LethalDose]

Just to repeat: in KSP, all engines need to have at least one propellant with density>0 or put another way all engines need to shoot mass out the back for any thrust to occur. If you make an engine that only uses massless (density = 0) resources, you won't get any thrust.

Is this true for monoprop modules, too?

[xrayfishx]

Option 1: Make a huge laser and give a metric crapload of energy. The photos accelerate away from the ship, conservation of momentum means your lazer goes the opposite direction.

option 2: Create a powerful electric field. With one "end" pointed against a "thrust plate", the other "end" pointed in the opposite direction. Quantum fluctuations cause charged particles to either accelerate and strike your thrust plate or accelerate away from your field. Both actions produce "thrust".

Light is massless so option 1 would not work. And if I understand option 2 correctly, something like that is already being worked on.

[Random Tank]

option 2: Create a powerful electric field. With one "end" pointed against a "thrust plate", the other "end" pointed in the opposite direction. Quantum fluctuations cause charged particles to either accelerate and strike your thrust plate or accelerate away from your field. Both actions produce "thrust".

You can power a ship with a particle accelerator? Awesomesauce! But surely the amount of energy it would require vs. the thrust it would produce would need some huge power generator, like a fission reactor or better? (Solar panels won't cut it)

[SirusKing]

Photons don't have any REST mass, however they do have relativistic mass. If you are throwing out energy, you can still generate thrust (just very little, since mass is an awful lot of energy). A Giant laser would work, however it would (very slowly) use up the filament or whatever you are using, and unless you give several exawatts of power to it, you won't be going anywhere soon.

[Capt. Hunt]

Straying from the original topic, would it be possible in real life? Electricity has mass, but can you use it to generate any thrust?

not really, if you were to eject the electrons out the back of the rocket that would possibly generate thrust, but for it to be an electric system, it has to be a closed circuit, which means, the electrons can't be ejected. You would need to use the electricity to energize some sort of propellant, through something like a plasma rocket or an ion thruster, for it to work.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Capt. Hunt

[ExplodingRocketShips]

The idea your thinking of is cool. I could see it in a mod. The quantum engines mod, perhaps?

Electric-Powered Fuel Generators sound cool.

[UberFuber]

Photons don't have any REST mass, however they do have relativistic mass. If you are throwing out energy, you can still generate thrust (just very little, since mass is an awful lot of energy). A Giant laser would work, however it would (very slowly) use up the filament or whatever you are using, and unless you give several exawatts of power to it, you won't be going anywhere soon.

Let's get mathy!

For a specific equation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

Specifically under Physical Property.

Momentum of a photon: p = h/lambda

h is the plank constant

lambda is the wavelength of the photon.

The energy of a photon: E = hc/lambda

c is the speed of light: 3e8 m/s

So, the amount of momentum that you can impart on our spaceship (p) is this:

p = E/c

where c = 3e8 m/s

E = joule

p = kg * m/s (1 p can accelerate 1 kg to 1 m/s).

So what does this mean? It means that if you have, say, a 1 kg spaceship (wow, you're really, REALLY efficient), to accelerate it to just 1 m/s (give it a deltaV of 1 m/s), you need 3e8 joules.

Or, in another word. if you have a 1kg spaceship, and you want to keep accelerating it at 1 m/s^2, you need 3e8 watt (3e8 joules per second), or 300 megawatts.

The Apollo command and service module has the mass of 30 tons. If you want to accelerate it at just a little over 1 earth gravity (9.8 m/s^2, but let's use 10 m/s^2 so you can "push" that service module away from earth). You'll need:

300 megawatts * 30,000 * 10 = 90,000,000 megawatt = 90 terrawatts

To put this in perspective, a typical nuclear powerplant in US (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=104&t=3) ranges from 500~1,300 megawatts per reactor. Let's use a nice round number of 1,000 megawatts per reactor, this means that to accelerate the Apollo 11's command and service module enough for it to slowly lift off from earth with just pure photon emission, and assuming 100% efficiency (typical diode laser hovers around 50%), you'll need 90,000 reactor somehow pumping ALL their power into the Apollo 11 CSM. The resulting laser output is probably enough to vaporize the very ground from which it launches from (and blind about everyone in the vicinity).

[Nuke]

i like how everyone thinks were in the science labs. i know reactionless engines are impossible (and q thrusters are some kinda universe hacking voodoo that nasa seems to be spending money on).

Edited April 7, 2014 by Nuke

[UberFuber]

i like how everyone thinks were in the science labs. i know reactionless engines are impossible (and q thrusters are some kinda universe hacking voodoo that nasa seems to be spending money on).

I think it is possible, my argument as thus.

After all, photon have momentum (and by rule of conservation of energy, emitting a photon would exert force on the emitter).

Of course, the amount of energy needed is simply phenomenal.

[KerbMav]

The idea your thinking of is cool. I could see it in a mod. The quantum engines mod, perhaps?

Electric-Powered Fuel Generators sound cool.

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/fueltastic/

It is verly old and had some issues I think, but true solar fuel is not new to KSP.

[Nuke]

I think it is possible, my argument as thus.

After all, photon have momentum (and by rule of conservation of energy, emitting a photon would exert force on the emitter).

Of course, the amount of energy needed is simply phenomenal.

id argue that this is not truly a reactionless drive. your still throwing something out the tail pipe, those things just happen to be photons. same is true for a q thruster, you get some particles, ionize them and throwing them out the tail pipe, only difference is those particles just happen to be pulled out of the quantum aether using said voodoo rather than coming out of a gas tank. i have doubts about the latter working, but there are enough people at nasa that think it will work to make it worth looking at. frankly it sounds a lot like breaking conservation of energy to me.

[Bloodbunny]

If there isn't a mod for electric powered engines, there should be: Back in the 60's they experimented with, and even developed a nuclear powered jet engine. The only problem was crew shielding, and ICBM's making the concept obsolete. (because the only reason to have nuclear powered planes is to more effectively deliver nukes right?)