Limit tech progression to practical progression?

[Mipe]

The career mode is a major gameplay feature that gives most players what the sandbox mode lacks - a sense of purpose that comes with progression.

However, I feel the current R&D implementation is ... well, suffice to say that it could be a little, no, a whole lot better. As it stands, you can do a simple Mun or Minmus flyby with Tech 1 rocket and thus unlock quite a few nodes with one flight. Well, that's quite a feat in itself that deserves rewards, but it kind of... dilutes the experience.

Therefore, I believe the "progression" itself should somehow be worked into the tech advancement other than with science points.

For example, limit tech tiers or nodes by assigning certain requirements that have to be met prior to unlocking and researching further. What would those requirements be? Why, it is practical experience!

What do I mean by practical experience? Simply achievements of the KSP and its people, that is you: the player. You start with several stock parts and delusions of grandeur. The first command pod, engine, fuel pod. R&D eggheads have ideas, however to flesh them out, they need hard, stone cold facts. That is the practical experience: the data about performance of engine, airtightness of the capsule, conditions in the upper atmosphere and so on. At this point, nearly the whole tech tree is greyed out but the first node.

What is that node's requirement? Why, nothing but the first flight: reaching a certain altitude that makes the egghead nod in approval and parachute engineer sweat profusely. Once you successfully launch the rocket, reach certain altitude and successfully bring it down (that is, by not squashing the contents of the command pod), the eggheads scurry back to their tables with newly-acquired and still warm facts: the practical experience. The effect on the player? The first tech tier is unlocked and he can proceed with research!

Next tiers could have similar conditions for progressions. For the science branch, for example, you would have to collect samples and perform various Kerbin-based experiments. Say, collecting surface sample from a certain biome would unlock the Goo container. Collecting samples and reports form, say, three or four different biomes would unlock the Science Jr. And so on. Other tech branches could be done in similar manner; to unlock docking ports and stuff, you'd first have to achieve an orbit and maintain it for a certain period. Then eggheads would start throwing ideas of more permanent orbital presence and present the space rendezvous and station ideas... Space planes? You'd need practical experience from both aerial and space flight (unlocking jet engines et cetera by performing various flight tasks, such as landing on the island strip, reaching certain altitude and maintaining it for certain time period, maintaining mach 2+ speed for a couple minutes and so on).

Practical experiences tend to come from failures, as well. Rocket crashed? How about those radial parachutes? Ran out of fuel in space? Try this fuel-efficient engine! Ran out of electric juice? Just point this refurbished mirror at the su- er, Kerbol!

Well, you get the idea. Limit the tech progression by certain conditions, such as crashing probes on certain bodies, achieving orbits, performing experiments et cetera. I feel this would be much more satisfying than simply min-maxing a rocket to grab the SciencePointCarePackage at Mun/Minmus before doing anything else. Sure, it's a nice challenge, but it kind of trivializes everything up to that point. Of course you can try and reach Mun with lowest tech possible, but you'd still have to do those mundane orbital experiments back at home before you can advance on the tech tree.

The space program is like a ladder made of smaller challenges that lead up to the bigger. Let's not skip the rungs. After all, that's what the career mode is for, is it not?

[r4pt0r]

this is all find and dandy, and you have nice ideas, but do note that career mode is in no way complete at present, and the devs are actually working hard on it right now(or sleeping, or eating, or all 3 at once) for the next update.

[NecroBones]

Yep, that could work.

Though, I think when someone is new to the game, it works itself out. When I started my career mode, I was a complete n00b, and I had to do a bunch of suborbital, and then orbital flights, before I even considered going to the moons. The science came in very slowly at first, as I learned how to do things.

For newbies, I think the skill level already enforces what you're describing. But for experienced players, I could see how it could enforce a more realistic pace, so you don't have someone going and unlocking half the tech tree at once just because they know how to go to Duna on the starting parts.

[Mipe]

They can. Nothing is stopping them from it; they just don't need the parts they would otherwise have to unlock. If they want to unlock those parts, well, there's something to do, then! They can skip straight to the next tier afterwards, though, having already completed that one mission.

[[email protected]]

It sounds like a nice idea but could be really limiting, creating a more linear progression as oppossed to the sandbox self-determined style we have now. I'd rather meet my own objectives than have to figure out what will trigger an unlock of a specific part.

[undercoveryankee]

I don't see something like this (basically, IIUC, having to complete a mission goal in addition to spending science points to gain access to a tech node) making it into stock for several releases past 0.24.

It might be fun to prototype as a mod, but also a boatload of work. You'd basically have to write a whole new tech tree to put the parts where you always have a logical connection between the mission goal and the parts it gives you access to. For some parts you would want to add "prototype" versions with reduced capabilities and then gain full function in a later node.

[The Destroyer]

It sounds like a good idea, I agree with ravensoul6.

[undercoveryankee]

It sounds like a nice idea but could be really limiting, creating a more linear progression as oppossed to the sandbox self-determined style we have now. I'd rather meet my own objectives than have to figure out what will trigger an unlock of a specific part.

It would be a good mechanic to have available for folks who are doing realistic-type tech trees.

[Zad Fnark]

Personally, I feel it should encourage the use of un-kerbaled probes early in the career, and work up to Kerbal missions. As it is now, you can do quite a bit after a couple Mun/Minmus landings.

[regex]

I don't like this idea on the grounds that I've already done all that before. When I start a new career game, why should I have to do a bunch of suborbital flights and such before I can make a trip to Eeloo, or even Eve? Part of the fun of career mode is challenging yourself with the limited parts. The best thing about KSP is that I can set and meet my own goals, the game doesn't spoon-feed them to me.

[Mipe]

I don't think it is all that limiting. Those practical experiences would be retroactive - if you are good, then you can meet quite a few requirements in ONE mission. For example, you would first launch into space, orbit Kerbin some time and then fly onward to Mun. When you return, you'd already have met quite objectives.

This practical progression is here to guide players. As it stands right now, new players have to go through a tutorial or google stuff, because the game doesn't tell them what to do next.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Mipe

[xcorps]

This practical progression is here to guide players. As it stands right now, new players have to go through a tutorial or google stuff, because the game doesn't tell them what to do next.

I don't think that's true at all. All my searching for guides and tut's have been for flying or orbiting. I already know what I want to do, I just need info on how to do it.

The problem with modern games is being told by the game what to do next. I sure as hell don't want KSP telling me I have to collect biome data from Kerbins poles before I can collect biome data from Minmus flatlands.

[Javster]

As long as there are alternatives: what if I don't want to go to Duna to unlock a wheel?

[Rakaydos]

Isnt this the point of budgets? If you can build a ship that can reach eeloo with Tier 0 parts, it's probably going to cost more than the can afford with starting parts. (also, better hope you dont botch the launch)

[[email protected]]

The problem with modern games is being told by the game what to do next.

This. I am so sick of games trying to hold my hand.

Someone could try to do this in a mod, but I'd be suprised if it was very popular.

[regex]

Isnt this the point of budgets? If you can build a ship that can reach eeloo with Tier 0 parts, it's probably going to cost more than the can afford with starting parts. (also, better hope you dont botch the launch)

If the game is so stingy on budget that you can't build an Eeloo ship on the first launch, I daresay newbies to the game aren't going to be getting very far at all with trial-and-error gameplay. Besides, having a limitation like that is different than the game outlining your early career; at least under budgets you can still set your own goals.

[KerikBalm]

I'd like to see some connection of the experiment to what is unlocked, but that would be rather difficult, and would have to be abstract and rather hard to suspend disbelief.

Something like: science readings(gravioli detector?*) from heliocentric orbit give you data about high energy particles and allow give you a boost towards the LV-N or ion node?

Or perhaps, neccessity is the mother of invention.

What could work ok:

you send a probe to duna, and take an atmospheric analysis/pressure reading. The Kerbal scientists thus see a need for drogue chutes and shock absorbing struts: -50% to the cost of the Advanced landing node.

You send a probe to Eve, and take atmospheric readings, -50% to science cost of the aerospike

You visit minmus, you see it doesn't take much to land, get a research bonus for micro landing struts?

It would be rather hard to find some good acheivement for each of the parts, to allow it to be unlocked at a science discount.

I'd rather see science be used to increase your budget (if you're more scientifically productive, they are more willing to fund you), and you simply spend money on researching nodes, or building more rockets. But since science has been implemented before a budget, I doubt they'd change the tech tree that fundamentally.

*I'd like to see more science instruments, stuff to measure radiation, spectra, magnetic fields, etc.

And most should be available from the start. Its annoying to have to go visit the same places a 2nd time because the first time you couldn't take grav readings.

[NecroBones]

As long as there are alternatives: what if I don't want to go to Duna to unlock a wheel?

You know, this is a good point. There are a lot of goals in the game that I didn't tackle until I felt ready. Part of that was unlocking the tech tree first, and part of it was skills and confidence.

I really like the fact that the game's goals are meta-goals currently, rather than pre-determined goals.

[Vanamonde]

This discussion of a suggestion for the game's development has been moved to the Suggestions and Development Discussion sub-forum.

[Hello moto]

I don't think it's a bad idea to have to believably research something before being able to get a part.

If you want to build something that can reach eeloo the first time you start career then what's the point of having a career mode?

[regex]

I don't think it's a bad idea to have to believably research something before being able to get a part.

If you want to build something that can reach eeloo the first time you start career then what's the point of having a career mode?

The point being that there should be multiple ways to approach a career mode game rather than trying to shoehorn everyone's experience into some sort of "realistic" progression. I'd like to play through career mode more than once and do so in very different ways, if possible. Having to do the exact same flight every time I want to unlock a certain battery would result in a very stale and boring game.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you can make a ship that can land on the Mun, you really only need a bit more fuel to get that ship to and land on Ike. The same goes for a Minmus lander and Gilly. Jool isn't exactly that hard to get to either, a fly-by is entirely possible using a ship that can land on the Mun. The nature of spaceflight means that restricting a player from what they want to do in order to provide a static progression will necessarily limit what craft they can fly, almost to the point where the player can't really be allowed to have the freedom to build their own craft. That doesn't sound like a KSP I want to play.

[Mipe]

And that's what sandbox is for: the complete freedom.

Career implies progression. What is the point of career if you just unlock everything with a couple trips to Minmus?

[regex]

Career implies progression. What is the point of career if you just unlock everything with a couple trips to Minmus?

Career implies choices. What is the point of career if the only way to unlock a certain reaction wheel is to do the same suborbital flight? Or unlock a parachute by crashing the same rocket (and presumably killing the occupant)?

[rkman]

what if I don't want to go to Duna to unlock a wheel?

A wheel that works well on Kerbin could be unlocked early in career, but would be heavy compared tot the sort of wheel you'd want to put on a rover for Duna. Makes sense that you'd need some science data about Duna in order to develop a wheel that works well on Duna.

Generally i do like the idea of not being able to develop technology needed for interplanetary travel without ever leaving Kerbin.

[[email protected]]

A wheel that works well on Kerbin could be unlocked early in career, but would be heavy compared tot the sort of wheel you'd want to put on a rover for Duna. Makes sense that you'd need some science data about Duna in order to develop a wheel that works well on Duna.

Generally i do like the idea of not being able to develop technology needed for interplanetary travel without ever leaving Kerbin.

Why not? We only ever took a half dozen trips to the moon, on rockets big enough to carry us to Mars and back.