Don't know which node to pick next

[Dire_Squid]

After finally and successfully landing on the Mun, I'm contemplating what to spend my 243 Science Points on (not enough for the both a 160 point node and the one remaining 90-point Science Venue; Advanced Flight Control... but more than enough for one 160 Point One... but cannot decided on Heavier Rocketry [bigger, more powerful non-solid fuel rockets and boosters, plus potentially more efficient tanks], Specialized Control [that Lander Can, 3-Kerbal command pod, and that big SAS stabilizer... my rockets steer like boulders, when in space, even WITH RCS Monoprepalant], Specialized Construction [Docking ports for building bigger rockets WHILE in space DOES seem promising], Supersonic Flight [better/faster jets/spaceplanes and better rocket flight], Precision Engineering [minute maneuvers AND probe/rover-work... plus softer planetary/moon landings], or Advance Landing [better surviving the fall/crash?])

I need help.

Thanks in advance.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Dire_Squid

[The Yellow Dart]

I would say docking ports because not only does it allow for Lander/Command Module configurations for Mun landings, it opens up the possibility of building larger, interplanetary probes and ships earlier on. I remember when I first considered stepping out into interplanetary travel I found that I had just missed pretty much every viable phase alignment launch window and since I don't like warping forward a year at a time, it left me piddling around the Kerbin system for longer than I wanted. That would let you send probes on their way the easy planets while you work on squeezing science out of the Mun and Minmus. But this assumes you know how to rendezvous and dock, which if you don't know is the time to learn.

[Sirrobert]

Remember that you can always return to the Mun and Minmus for more science (on the other biomes)

[Dire_Squid]

Hmm, good points from both of you... thank you, Sirrobert, and The Yellow Dart (aka Artie, the Strongest Man in the World).

[joekidd1992]

I guess I'll do that, too, since I just within the last 10 minutes, managed to land on the Mun and return successfully. I am unsure on

1. How to rendezvous and dock.

2. Recover 2 space vessels still floating around.

3. How to build spaceships while in space?

[Vahal]

I ALWAYS select the sciences nodes to 160 then I spend some points yo have the radial decouplers, the fuel pipes. Why? Cause when you invest in science nodes, it's a direct investment that can directly pay back. unlock science stuff, send it around some biome and get cash... ooops, science. So

That's the way I unlocked the nodes on the vanilla techtree. Hope that will help.

rendez vous and docking are ones of the hardest things to make in KSP (especially rendez vous). When you have some habits with those building in space is piece of cake (always check your vessel before preparing the mission, it's not cool to see when trying to dock your propulsion part to your living quarters ship that the senor clampotron on the habitation part is backward and you can't dock both parts)

Edited May 20, 2014 by Vahal

[Dire_Squid]

I guess I'll do that, too, since I just within the last 10 minutes, managed to land on the Mun and return successfully. I am unsure on

1. How to rendezvous and dock.

2. Recover 2 space vessels still floating around.

3. How to build spaceships while in space?

I too need to figure out how to accurately time a rendezvous flight.... last two times resulted in me burning retrograde hilariously, and the other with me flying an orbit in the OPPOSITE direction.... more hilarious results.

I ALWAYS select the sciences nodes to 160 then I spend some points yo have the radial decouplers, the fuel pipes. Why? Cause when you invest in science nodes, it's a direct investment that can directly pay back. unlock science stuff, send it around some biome and get cash... ooops, science. So

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2014/21/1400551496-screenshot280.png

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2014/21/1400551506-screenshot292.png

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2014/21/1400551443-screenshot49.png

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2014/21/1400551451-screenshot50.png

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2014/21/1400551457-screenshot54.png

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2014/21/1400551466-screenshot62.png

That's the way I unlocked the nodes on the vanilla techtree. Hope that will help.

rendez vous and docking are ones of the hardest things to make in KSP (especially rendez vous). When you have some habits with those building in space is piece of cake (always check your vessel before preparing the mission, it's not cool to see when trying to dock your propulsion part to your living quarters ship that the senor clampotron on the habitation part is backward and you can't dock both parts)

That's nice an all... but how are you gonna get rovers/jet tech? Jets, being lighter and more conservative with fuel consumption, are useful if you're trying to continue Kerbin studies, and fly in airspace (like on Duna and Eve), Not to MENTION rockets with better lift... and Rovers can take you were rockets can't (continuously on the surface of any moon/planet).

Edited May 20, 2014 by Dire_Squid

[SpaceGremlin]

Jets, being lighter and more conservative with fuel consumption, are useful if you're trying to continue Kerbin studies, and fly in airspace (like on Duna and Eve)

Jet engines don't work on Duna or Eve. They have no oxygen in their atmospheres to run jet engines on, only Kerbin and Laythe have oxygen for jet propulsion.

[Sirrobert]

I too need to figure out how to accurately time a rendezvous flight.... last two times resulted in me burning retrograde hilariously, and the other with me flying an orbit in the OPPOSITE direction.... more hilarious results.

What you need to rendezvous is a Hohmann Transfer

The basisi is: Hohmann transfer to get close, match velocity when you are close (switch to target mode on the navball), and than slowly approch the craft (at max 10m/s when far, slower when closer)

You can use RCS translation functions to dock (IJKL translate, H is forward thrust, N is backward thrust).

Docking is the most difficult thing in this game.

I suggest you first launch 2 ships into orbit that are pre docked, than undock them and practice flying 1 around the other and than redock. For that I suggest an RCS probe. Probebody in the center, RCS tank on either side, docking port on the ends, and RCS ports on the side. Easy, light, manouverable. Don't forget the solar pannels

Here's a full guide: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/32905-Beginner-How-to-dock-in-3-easy-steps

That's nice an all... but how are you gonna get rovers/jet tech? Jets, being lighter and more conservative with fuel consumption, are useful if you're trying to continue Kerbin studies, and fly in airspace (like on Duna and Eve), Not to MENTION rockets with better lift... and Rovers can take you were rockets can't (continuously on the surface of any moon/planet).

Rovers aren't that usefull, because they move pritty slow. So if you land one in the middle of a biome, it would take you forever to get to the edge of the next for science.

They are more fun than truely science usefull. For that, sub orbital hops to the next biome is alot faster

[Vahal]

Well, with early as possible unlocking science stuff I can maximize the amount of science I pick up from, Mun and Minmus. Without leaving Kerbin SOE I can totally unlock the techtree if I remember acurately so no problem to have spaceplanes, rover and other fun and useless stuff.

Example of Minmus mission:

I forgot the end of my techtree unlocking path

[joekidd1992]

I need to go back to the Mun!!! And get more science. I think my first time there I landed in a biome because it was 120 science.

[GoatRider]

I need to go back to the Mun!!! And get more science. I think my first time there I landed in a biome because it was 120 science.

You always land in a Biome. The trick is landing in a different one each time.

[Sirrobert]

I need to go back to the Mun!!! And get more science. I think my first time there I landed in a biome because it was 120 science.

A biome is just how we call regions.

The mun is split up in different biomes, each giving it's own science

[Vahal]

yep, Mün has several biomes like highlands, midlands, poles, canyons, craters... The easier way to land on different biomes is to land in thoses craters, you can't miss them. Another way is to install mods like VOID who is really nice cause it indicates the biome where you actually are and the biome you're flying above for example flying upper atmosphere: Kerbin shores so you know what ground biome is below and if it worths to land. It's especially useful on Minmus I found where sometime you have five differents biomes within a stone's throw... Ok, on Minmus that can be a certain distance

And Scansat map planets and moons to provide nice informations like biomes, altimetry... nice when you want a toal immersive experience (with rasterprop monitor, MFI and the awesome ASET ALCOR for IVA missions)

And when unlocking new sciences part you just have to launch to the previously explored biome a little probe with the new instruments (or if you love rovers, wait and send a rover to make un Münar trip... Be aware that will take a looooooooooooong time)

[Dire_Squid]

Oh yeah... I recall someone mentioned Jets not working in Eve and Duna due to them not having "air"... good points... unless you make solar/xenon-fuelled jets, which require no air intake (thank you, Yogcast Duncan, again).

I actually have made my own, and it KINDA works, but it's a prototype: I need to figure out how to make it not too front-heavy, and to make it balanced enough to fly straight without me babysitting it (aka tending to the controls every 5 seconds).

[Vindelle_Sunveam]

I need to figure out how to make it not too front-heavy, and to make it balanced enough to fly straight without me babysitting it (aka tending to the controls every 5 seconds).

You may want to use the almost weightless structural fuselage for better mass distribution. For the slight imbalances you can come up with, Alt+WASD sets the trim.

[Dire_Squid]

I already have, plus adding SOME weight in the back allows it to maintain altitude.

BTW, after downloading the SCANsat mod, gaining science has been a breeze (both in picture relays, AND identifying biomes before popping my Kerbal's head outside.). After already getting Heavier Rocketry, Specialized Construction, Advanced Exploration and Advanced Landing, now I just need to figure out whether I want to get Specialized Control (better maneuvering bigger rockets in space, AND bigger command pods), Supersonic Flight (better Kerbin Exploration via-jet, and better wings for lifting jets AND rockets, alike), or maybe some Field Science (ROVERS, BABEH!)?

I've already landed on the Mun twice AND returned there (stupidly, the second return sent me almost crashing into the Highlands on Kerbin.. WHY are the Highlands harder to land on than MOUNTAINS!??!!? Makes NO SENSE!), so soon I'd want to eventually make a Mun Base (with rovers and science, lol).

UPDATE: Actually, I MAY have answered my question with a botched mission to Minmus. if these simple Solar Panels can' catch light (at any angle) on missions further from the Mun... I MAY need to invest in Advanced Electrics (retractable Solar Panels, and more potent batteries).

Edited May 26, 2014 by Dire_Squid

[Pecan]

Rovers are useless, bases are useless wings are almost useless, spaceplanes are practically useless or very time-consuming compared to rockets. Wings on a rocket are a waste of mass. Jets don't work on Eve and Duna because those have no oxygen, although they do have air. The only place off Kerbin where jets work, and therefore spaceplanes are worthwhile, is Laythe. For exploring Kerbin - especially if you want to visit and identify the 'anomalies' SCANSat will locate - it's easier and quicker to launch a (sub)orbital rocket than fly a jet.

You can't "make" solar/xenon 'jets', although you can use them on aircraft - which makes them practically useless AND almost immobile. If you use anything but jets on a plane you're better off with a normal rocket ascent-profile (see 'wings on a rocket' above).

A Mun base with a rover will be doubly useless, but you can go for the hat-trick by providing it with a spaceplane landing-strip. The fixed OX-STAT solar panels work anywhere, but less efficiently the further they are from the sun, not Mun. More than one can be useful, and make sure you orientate it properly.

Does that help?

[Dire_Squid]

Rovers are useless, bases are useless wings are almost useless, spaceplanes are practically useless or very time-consuming compared to rockets. Wings on a rocket are a waste of mass. Jets don't work on Eve and Duna because those have no oxygen, although they do have air. The only place off Kerbin where jets work, and therefore spaceplanes are worthwhile, is Laythe. For exploring Kerbin - especially if you want to visit and identify the 'anomalies' SCANSat will locate - it's easier and quicker to launch a (sub)orbital rocket than fly a jet.

You can't "make" solar/xenon 'jets', although you can use them on aircraft - which makes them practically useless AND almost immobile. If you use anything but jets on a plane you're better off with a normal rocket ascent-profile (see 'wings on a rocket' above).

A Mun base with a rover will be doubly useless, but you can go for the hat-trick by providing it with a spaceplane landing-strip. The fixed OX-STAT solar panels work anywhere, but less efficiently the further they are from the sun, not Mun. More than one can be useful, and make sure you orientate it properly.

Does that help?

I WAS going to say "No, and you're a jerk!", but I REALLY don't want to violate the rules, here.

Oh, and check out Yogcast Duncan's playlist of when he played KSP... HE MADE A SOLAR PLANE, which required no air (however, it didn't fly on Duna well enough NOT BECAUSE "there's no air" [since Xenon Gas engines appear to not need air to work], but because it seemed he forgot to put any means to correct its position during re-entry)!!!

Edited May 27, 2014 by Dire_Squid

[Vindelle_Sunveam]

Pecan is right, everything in this game is useless. Uselessness is a necessary condition for the game to be.

On the other hand, I do not know how you play and can assure you : as far as rovers go, they have very interesting features : you can use them until bored provided you have enough batteries to last a full night (hopping probes runs out of fuel). They are lighter than manned missions and do not require return trips (hurrah for DeltaV ! Praise the single transfer window !)

So, you know, whatever fancies you. I almost never put points in the aerodynamics part of the tech tree, some people do not bother with the rovers, or even the expensive science equipment, and none of it is wrong (cf. 1st line of this reply).

[Dire_Squid]

Pecan is right, everything in this game is useless...

Good to know *rolls eyes*

Uselessness is a necessary condition for the game to be.

Downloaded a redundant game.. check *endsarcasm.exe*

On the other hand, I do not know how you play and can assure you : as far as rovers go, they have very interesting features : you can use them until bored provided you have enough batteries to last a full night (hopping probes runs out of fuel). They are lighter than manned missions and do not require return trips (hurrah for DeltaV ! Praise the single transfer window !)

So, you know, whatever fancies you. I almost never put points in the aerodynamics part of the tech tree, some people do not bother with the rovers, or even the expensive science equipment, and none of it is wrong (cf. 1st line of this reply).

Well, with Career Mode being as crippling as it is, I started with rockets, and used jets to further the science points (plus they're kinda fun to fly WITH Kethane mods, as refueling them makes long flights easier).

Hell, without the Kethane Mods, I'd never be able to return FROM the Mun. I've flown to and from the Mun, so far, twice, and earlier I flew a satellite with a Kethan scanner and SCANsat tech toward Minmus (eccentricizing your orbit to match Minmus's is challenging, AND stressful, but fun). The SCANsat science has helped me a lot to further exploration.

You can KIND OF tell how I play (science, plus R&D), plus... me being a sci-fi geek, exploration and science is first... but colonizing is the next step (something that ALSO Kethane makes possible:wink:)

[Vindelle_Sunveam]

Well, seems that you can quite do watever you want. Keep your science in your pocket, and spend it when and of you need it. Designing missions is the best way to know what you need. If I didn't plan to send a rover on duna, I would never have unlocked this part of the tech tree. I almost never sent kerbals anymore :-D

Sorry for the long time. Thinking + Forum makeover combind XD

[Pecan]

...Well, with Career Mode being as crippling as it is, I started with rockets, and used jets to further the science points (plus they're kinda fun to fly WITH Kethane mods, as refueling them makes long flights easier)...

See, now you mention Kethane, it changes almost everything!

I was about to say your attitute didn't deserve an explanation of my previous statements; you're right though, it was a jerk post and I apologise. I stand by my points but I should have made some sort of effort to put them more helpfully. So :-

Rovers are useless without the Kethane mod because it takes so long to get anywhere with them that a) it's nearly always quicker to send another lander, you'll probably give-up halfway anyway. Without Kethane (or similar) bases just really are useless in KSP. I really wanted to build them - and you might too, which is fine - but they get old very fast, especially with problems of docking/linking separate modules. WITH Kethane bases become essential, therefore your rovers become an easy and interesting adjunct. Multiple bases within rover-commute give you a reason to rove and something interesting to look at while you do it. Rovers can even be useful in carrying things between modules/bases. Have you looked at the KAS mod too? It makes connecting bases much more funtional.

'Jets', in the common parlance (to quote wikipedia) are 'air'-breathing engines - specifically they need 'oxygen', so only work on Kerbin and Laythe. 'Planes' using non-oxygen-breathing engines are pretty much defined by using wings for lift, in an atmosphere; so that adds Eve and Duna. However, the advantage of (space)planes is their fuel-efficiency from using jets, which still limits them to Kerbin and Laythe for any practical purpose, hence they "are practically useless" and, even where useful, they take so much time and effort to fly "it's easier and quicker to launch a (sub)orbital rocket than fly a jet".

On Eve the gravity is so great you don't want to spend any time lower than you absolutely have to. Since you can't use jets and don't get any fuel-efficiency from staying in atmosphere with other engines "you're better off with a normal rocket ascent-profile" - that is, going UP and out of the atmosphere as quickly as possible (allowing for gravity-turn to get into orbit). On Duna, in contrast, the atmosphere is so thin that you won't get much lift from a plane unless you carry a ton of wings, making the whole vehicle heavier, harder to build and less efficient. In other words, "you're better off with a normal rocket ascent-profile". If you're not using jets and you're not using wings for lift there's no point in carrying a mass of wings - a reasonably aerodynamic rocket just doesn't need them - which means it isn't a plane at all any more and so "The only place off Kerbin where jets work, and therefore spaceplanes are worthwhile, is Laythe."

I do not dispute the possibility of making a solar/xenon plane, just the utility of it. If you want a challenge by all means go ahead but the wonder is not in doing it well, "but you are surprised to find it done at all". Don't conflate 'jet'/'plane' or 'air'/'oxygen' though (or 'SSTO'/'Spaceplane' for that matter, which a lot of other people do). As a sci-fi geek, I'm sure you appreciate the difference.

You've probably sorted-out your solar-panel issues by now but for the record, they work most efficiently when facing directly towards the sun but not when facing away from it or in the shadow of a ship or celestial body. The OX-STAT panels are simple, cheap and light but fixed in place, therefore it is important to orientate your ships so that the panels facing the right direction. Doing that even these little panels are useful and efficient, being less than a third of the mass of the OX-4W/L (the shielded versions are even heavier). When ships have trouble orientating to the sun the other panels are useful but they still won't worked if blocked OR if they are 'side-on'. While they rotate in one axis they have no freedom of movement in the other two so you still need to consider their placement carefully, if not as much as with the OX-STAT. The best coverage is with three panels orientated at 90-degrees to each other, one per axis. In practice that's usually not necessary though, unless your ship really has no ability to rotate. You will still need more panels the further from the sun, of course, as you'll know.

[Dire_Squid]

Yes, I love using Kethane, I have downloaded the KAS AND Infernal Robotics mods (I use guide rails to lift/lower my landing struts so I can mine, until I can get the bigger Kethane drill).

Your points are VERY valid, Pecan, and they make a lot of sense (and yes, I place simple solar panels all around the circumference of certain areas of my rocket for effective recharge... and my Eve/Duna Probe Rockets I place 6 2x3 panels and deploy them the moment I reach 70K m)... I just wish I could dock without resorting to eventually downloading MechJeb. I try and try, and I can never catch up to/meet up with the other docked ship without being "too late", or "desperately using the thrusters to foolishly trying to catch up to align, only to realize I keep throwing myself out of alignment". I even downloaded the Navball Docking Alignment Indicator.... but no luck. I just wanna experiment with making refueling stations in orbit... That's not too big a desire, is it? lol

And yes, a solar "plane" would, for all intents and purpose, be more like a "powered glider" than a plane or a jet, as I'm basically using xenon, electric power, and HUGE wings to push.

Also, I've experimented with the KAS parts, and, just as a "bookmark", I built a pylon with hoses (and some solar panels and batteries) on the Mun if and when I land a Kethane tank (one of the bigger ones), fill and convert to liquid and oxidizing fuel using a drill and converter, and make a refueling point (and hopefully will be the first of a few I'll make).

I need more science for the bigger drill, and a vertical stack winch and stack port. I've got 550 science, and either I finally get the claws (which is useless to me UNTIL I can figure out orbiting around asteroids, which I can't do, yet) and get either Nuclear Rockets, Advanced MetalWorks (the winch and stack port, the large kethane drill, more building structures, more robotics, the tiny dock for potential rovers, as the regular ones are too big, the quad coupler and the stack separators), Ion Propulsion (dat Xenon), or Large Electrics (giant battery, and giant solar panels)...

... OR should I blow my points and get Very Heavy Rocketry (without them, I CAN theoretically make it to a Jool Encounter, but nothing beyond that, not even an orbit: I've done it once just to see if I could), Advanced Science Tech (the Nosecone and the Gravioli Detector seems to give a lot of science, even on Kerbin, from what I've seen, and that's JUST Kerbin, which could technically get me back all my Science I spent on them, and add more, along the way), or Hypersonic Flight (I can make my Kethane Jet reach up to a little above 20K m, and reach up to speeds, from that elevation, to well over 1100 m/s... but now I want to make it a genuine spaceplane to survive an around the world/semi-off-world flight)?

Edited June 9, 2014 by Dire_Squid