[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

tg626 · January 5, 2015

So, this happened...

This is a probe I launched 2 or 3 days ago. It's a dead hulk on a Solar orbit (fulfilled a testing contract). I've "warped" to/from the Mun a couple times, but I hadn't comeback to see this particular vessel until tonight. I entered the Tracking Station, selected this craft from the list, and clicked "Fly". This "disjointed" vessel is what I found.

It's still one craft, despite appearing disconnected/disassembled. :confused:

EDIT: I just realized, the "upper" part of the core appears to be too small...

EDIT PT2:

And here's what fixes it. NOTE: Technically this is a KSP bug, some reading indicates it MAY only affect a root part (I don't recall if that LFO_B tank was the root part of this rocket or not), the following change fixed it in my current save:

author = Tantares

[COLOR=#ff0000]//MODEL[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]//{[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]//   model = TantaresLV/TLV/TLV_LFO_B/model[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]//   texture = TLV_LFO_A_psd , TantaresLV/TLV/TLV_LFO_A/TLV_LFO_A_psd[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#FF0000]//}[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]mesh = model.mu[/COLOR]
scale = 1

My changes in RED. The "MODEL" container isn't needed in this application, since you aren't referencing anything outside of this directory. (Maybe this has some effect on the texture, I don't know, but by all appearances in game the only effect of my change is that the minish tank has been restored to full size)

Apearantly this is a old old bug in KSP.

I tried all the "rescaleFactor, scale, etc." but if I get the flying craft to load at the right size, the VAB loads the tank too big. Only this change gives me both the flying tank AND the VAB tanks in the correct size.

EDIT PT3:

Found the craft file for the original rocket. Sure enough, LFO_B (aka Tavio SB(2)) was indeed the root part. So that's the source of this "bug" and it's a KSP bug, not a Tantares Bug.

Carry on.

Edited January 5, 2015 by tg626

Chadley123 · January 5, 2015

Development of the refurbished proton looks great, much closer to the real thing. I do have some questions however, Will the Block C engine receive a solid fairing instead of the cross bar pattern thing that Block B has? And noting that the refurbished proton reads ALV-II, does that mean that both protons will be available?

Also, when you say Energia are you referring to the Buran shuttle or is there a different launcher I do not know about?

Keep up the excellent work, Beale!

tg626 · January 5, 2015

I hope the old one here doesn't disappear completely. It may not work with your new "Proton" but it's still a good tank in it's own right.

biohazard15 · January 5, 2015

Another small part.
Maybe it is a little dark...
http://puu.sh/e4Zy1/3d444cddb7.jpg
New Left, Old Right
http://puu.sh/e4Zpn/2a1c9ae4d2.jpg
http://puu.sh/e4ZjJ/d7dd25edf2.jpg
Edit: Update
http://puu.sh/e51Nb/d23e7d8e87.jpg
Integrale Uno trains for a Munar landing.
http://puu.sh/e59Wz/f7c1c1fc5b.jpg

Yeah, it's too dark around the "ribs".

Also, I'm not sure about this "circle" in the middle - right now it looks like it's two small fuel tanks, not one part.

dimovski · January 5, 2015

Meanwhile in the MIK-112:

39.5 meters tall V-II stage mock-up...

The old parts will surely find a use

Niemand303 · January 5, 2015

Another small part.
Maybe it is a little dark...
http://puu.sh/e4Zy1/3d444cddb7.jpg
New Left, Old Right
http://puu.sh/e4Zpn/2a1c9ae4d2.jpg
http://puu.sh/e4ZjJ/d7dd25edf2.jpg
Edit: Update
http://puu.sh/e51Nb/d23e7d8e87.jpg
Integrale Uno trains for a Munar landing.
http://puu.sh/e59Wz/f7c1c1fc5b.jpg

The tank looks nice, but why change the cap? The old orange one was beautiful and more fitting the Proton design.

Beale · January 5, 2015

Looks good
cant wait for when you would release it.

Thanks!

So, this happened...
-snip-
Carry on.

Gah, an annoying bug.

With I am using MODEL{} more and more, it is hopefully next on the fix list for Squad, here's hoping

Development of the refurbished proton looks great, much closer to the real thing. I do have some questions however, Will the Block C engine receive a solid fairing instead of the cross bar pattern thing that Block B has? And noting that the refurbished proton reads ALV-II, does that mean that both protons will be available?
Also, when you say Energia are you referring to the Buran shuttle or is there a different launcher I do not know about?
Keep up the excellent work, Beale!

Thanks

Block C: Yes, solid fairings this time.

ALV-II: The Tantares launchers names, I tried to imitate the naming of the indian launchers. So this is second generation ALV, it's just called II. The old one, I don't really plan to keep it around.

Energia: Yes, the Buran rocket. But, not Buran itself

http://puu.sh/e4Zpn/2a1c9ae4d2.jpg
I hope the old one here doesn't disappear completely. It may not work with your new "Proton" but it's still a good tank in it's own right.

Hard to say, I am not keen to keep old parts hanging around, but at the same time, to break peoples saved ships is not a good thing.

Thoughts? I could rename the new parts ALV_Engine_AA, or similar, so they don't overwrite the old ones.

Yeah, it's too dark around the "ribs".
Also, I'm not sure about this "circle" in the middle - right now it looks like it's two small fuel tanks, not one part.

Thanks for the feedback!

Hopefully reduced the harsh contrast.

The band: I find it quite useful for breaking up the UV map, eh, it is a little tricky to avoid.

Meanwhile in the MIK-112:
http://i.imgur.com/txZ0ztl.jpg
39.5 meters tall V-II stage mock-up...
The old parts will surely find a use

Oh my...

The tank looks nice, but why change the cap? The old orange one was beautiful and more fitting the Proton design.

Yes, I agree I suppose, got to keep the theme.

II also added to first stage

Edited January 5, 2015 by Beale

Beale · January 5, 2015

More!

The third stage fuel tank.

Some more mockup.

Textures:

Edited January 5, 2015 by Beale

Kaput · January 5, 2015

Looking good

Beale · January 5, 2015

Looking good

Thanks!

In Unity, with specular map...

Edit:

Edited January 5, 2015 by Beale

CrisK · January 5, 2015

Beale, I like how you have changed the proportions of the stages. The current 3rd (C?) stage is very large, and it only contains 2/5ths of the fuel that it should given the size. The new design looks more proportional all around.

Last night I noticed that the science orbiters/containers do not actually do anything. Are you planning on adding some sort of experiment to them, mobile processing lab (ModuleScienceLab) functionality, etc? I added it on my own files. ModuleScienceLab is pretty darned buggy.

I've observed some strange behavior with the docking ports. Two "male" docking ports will connect, but undocking causes the uncontrolled ship to explode. Also, FAR appears to treat these docking ports as collisions during reentry and the result is spectacular explosions.

pTrevTrevs · January 5, 2015

Will the next release of this mod include the extras folder with the 3 seat Soyuz/ Soyuz-T and the 1.25 meter Cygnus?

AppleDavidJeans · January 5, 2015

Thanks!
In Unity, with specular map...
http://puu.sh/e6Qlp/389fcbba07.jpg
http://puu.sh/e6Qqh/73ed8bf2d2.jpg
Edit:
http://puu.sh/e6UfX/f2e17103f6.jpg
http://puu.sh/e6UgX/939c719538.jpg
http://puu.sh/e6Uj5/588182ac60.jpg
http://puu.sh/e6UkL/e7ce397d13.jpg

o boy dat looks sxc

Beale · January 5, 2015

Beale, I like how you have changed the proportions of the stages. The current 3rd (C?) stage is very large, and it only contains 2/5ths of the fuel that it should given the size. The new design looks more proportional all around.
Last night I noticed that the science orbiters/containers do not actually do anything. Are you planning on adding some sort of experiment to them, mobile processing lab (ModuleScienceLab) functionality, etc? I added it on my own files. ModuleScienceLab is pretty darned buggy.
I've observed some strange behavior with the docking ports. Two "male" docking ports will connect, but undocking causes the uncontrolled ship to explode. Also, FAR appears to treat these docking ports as collisions during reentry and the result is spectacular explosions.

Thanks!

Science stuff: I take it you mean the Salyut parts? Not sure what to do. They used to have a couple of unique experiments, could do that again. As you say, the science lab module is problematic, so can't really put that in.

Docking Ports: Never ever had this happen :huh: Will try to recreate. Might be an issue with the "dockingNode" setup.

The FAR issue is even stranger, I don't know why it would do that.

Will the next release of this mod include the extras folder with the 3 seat Soyuz/ Soyuz-T and the 1.25 meter Cygnus?

I'll include Niemand's 1.25m Cygnus for sure, but for larger Soyuz, it needs a bit more time (Which I don't really have) and care to get the numbers right.

o boy dat looks sxc

More...

The fuel and weight "is" correct now, the problem is the engines, it always has been, they are basically too light. The second stage engine should probably be closer to 5 tons, rather than 2.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Beale

dimovski · January 5, 2015

I have that bad feeling it's overpowered again...

Atleast it's gorgeous!

Beale · January 5, 2015

I have that bad feeling it's overpowered again...
Atleast it's gorgeous!

No no! Wrong impression :sealed:

This is prior to engine balance, when they are changed, Delta-V for a Salyut payload will hopefully be in the range of 5,600m/s (And it may have less absurd TWR).

I did the maths, and also, the 1st stage engine bells work out to be about 250kg each, which is a bit light.

(I suppose it is a bit rich for me to call dividing a number by 6 "doing the maths").

I hope.

But, many thanks on the looks! I am very happy with how it is now

Currently it does very easily get a Salyut to a 250km orbit with only little of the third stage, but that will change

I'm modelling the 2nd and 3rd stage engine, but cannot find orthographic views of the RD-0210 anywhere...

Edited January 5, 2015 by Beale

dimovski · January 5, 2015

If you could settle with using fixed empty masses, and if you would determine the delta-v of each stage for a Salyut-like payload in advance, you could use Excel to make the balancing for you...

Here's a delta-V excel file I've been using for such stuff... (the second sheet actually has the delta-v stuff, the 1st one is for stage data)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4evtu8u19vgh5ss/Delta-V.xlsx?dl=0

Anyway, I think the best thing to do would be to shoot for a 4450m/s ascent with the KSP equivalent of Kvant-1+tug, which was the heaviest payload ever launched by a Proton.

Now, IRL they had to make some changes to the booster to lift it, but in KSP this should be the max with a perfect, nearly MJ-like trajectory. That way you've got some leeway when launching lighter stuff, like Salyut.

Edited January 5, 2015 by dimovski

Niemand303 · January 5, 2015

Yay, it looks flamin' hot! I need to get home before release!

Beale · January 5, 2015

If you could settle with using fixed empty masses, and if you would determine the delta-v of each stage for a Salyut-like payload in advance, you could use Excel to make the balancing for you...
Here's a delta-V excel file I've been using for such stuff... (the second sheet actually has the delta-v stuff, the 1st one is for stage data)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4evtu8u19vgh5ss/Delta-V.xlsx?dl=0
Anyway, I think the best thing to do would be to shoot for a 4450m/s ascent with the KSP equivalent of Kvant-1+tug, which was the heaviest payload ever launched by a Proton.
Now, IRL they had to make some changes to the booster to lift it, but in KSP this should be the max with a perfect, nearly MJ-like trajectory. That way you've got some leeway when launching lighter stuff, like Salyut.

Hmmm, that seems like a good way to benchmark.

Thanks for the spreadsheet!

Well, I need to get the parts done before I can start any "serious" balance stuff.

Yay, it looks flamin' hot! I need to get home before release!

Thanks!

Speaking of flamin' hot, the engine.

You might feel a touch of Deja Vu, the new engine is really not that different from old (Left).

But, much appearance of higher res texture, while having a much smaller texture, sharing it with the fuel tank.

New (Left), Old (Right), maybe those who are interested can see where I have saved space?

So in reality now, the new Proton will only have 2 1024x1024 textures for the whole thing, good

Edited January 5, 2015 by Beale

TheBedla · January 6, 2015

The redesign is looking great, Beale!

However, I'd suggest you add some "texture" on the main tank between the six radial tanks on the first stage, so far it looks a little blank. Maybe just some panelling like in the other stages? There certainly is something there IRL. I can also seem to see some sort of fuel pipe?

Niemand303 · January 6, 2015

The redesign is looking great, Beale!
However, I'd suggest you add some "texture" on the main tank between the six radial tanks on the first stage, so far it looks a little blank. Maybe just some panelling like in the other stages? There certainly is something there IRL. I can also seem to see some sort of fuel pipe?

Looking at that fuel pipe, it seems to me that it is a part of launch complex (looks like a bunch of wires, maybe ignitor?) and removed before liftoff.

Beale, I think that my configs haven't made it to the latest version of RO even in WIP (dunno why) so I'd suggest adding the configs from GitHub back to Extra_Tantares.

https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/pull/85

Edited January 6, 2015 by Niemand303

Beale · January 6, 2015

The redesign is looking great, Beale!
However, I'd suggest you add some "texture" on the main tank between the six radial tanks on the first stage, so far it looks a little blank. Maybe just some panelling like in the other stages? There certainly is something there IRL. I can also seem to see some sort of fuel pipe?

Looking at that fuel pipe, it seems to me that it is a part of launch complex (looks like a bunch of wires, maybe ignitor?) and removed before liftoff.

Thanks!

Perhaps, if not the pipes and things, that section could use just a little bit more wear and stuff, it is more or less a flat gradient currently...

Beale, I think that my configs haven't made it to the latest version of RO even in WIP (dunno why) so I'd suggest adding the configs from GitHub back to Extra_Tantares.
https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/pull/85

Will do, thanks!

ALV Stuff.

Right, serious time.

Engines, in.

Mass of the Salyut parts has been increased:

Mass of new Salyut parts:

Lower = 2.8 tons
Middle = 2.4 tons
top = 1.1 tons

Salyut parts now have small amount of MonoProp, so I stop slapping myself in the face everytime I forget to include tanks.

ISP of Proton engines has been reduced somewhat, to the point where they are arguably worse than comparable stock engines.

It's still a little overpowered.

Argh, I really need help with this.

So, I have the beta here, if anyone would like to take a look.

Maybe in the end, it's not such a huge problem, but, I think it is still quite possible to pull off a LOK/LK Mun landing with it, which is not good.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Beale

dimovski · January 6, 2015

Let's see... we got 3 stages for a 6,3 ton payload. I will assume the Kvant-1 + tug weighs in at 7 tons (which it probably doesn't), and shoot for 4750m/s for a reasonable margin of error to perform a 51.6 inclination 400km x 400km orbit.

I will also go with stock fuel tank/dry weight ratios, and I will assume the 1st stage has an Isp of 340 seconds, the 2nd one has around 365, and the 3rd one brings us to 370.

I shall also assume that each stage will have about the same delta-V, as IRL. That means each stage needs to have around 1580m/s delta-V.

This is what I came up with:

CrisK · January 6, 2015

Argh, I really need help with this.
So, I have the beta here, if anyone would like to take a look.
http://puu.sh/e9iAR/87ec81f589.jpg
Maybe in the end, it's not such a huge problem, but, I think it is still quite possible to pull off a LOK/LK Mun landing with it, which is not good.

What do you need help with?

I think that you should balance the weight of these parts against the stock pods / engines / tanks rather than against real-world values. If you're going for pure realism, the Proton should be almost 3x as wide as it currently is, and the Soyuz should be a 3m wide part. Those sizes don't translate well to the scaled down Kerbal world. I also don't like the idea of making the Salyut parts too heavy.

If you're going for pure realism, the Proton should spontaneously fail 10-15% of the time. The R7 should spontaneously fail anywhere from 10-60% of the time. Protons that are carrying Soyuz spacecraft should catch fire around the engines and then the Soyuz should use its emergency system to fly off the top of the rocket to save the crew two seconds before the rocket explodes. The Salyut should unexpectedly leak fuel from time to time and need to be patched by an engineer. The Salyut should occasionally lose power without a reason and require an engineer to replace the batteries (this actually happened). Oh, and the crew should randomly experience hallucinations of bright orange clouds.

For the engines, I like the slightly "overpowered" values because they match the Kerbal stock engines. The real world engines are lacklustre in comparison.

1st stage 285 / 316

2nd stage 342 / ?

3rd stage 325 / ?

Niemand303 · January 6, 2015

So, I have the beta here, if anyone would like to take a look.

Yay, just in time home for the Beta! I love it!

[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

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