[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[passinglurker]

Why can't they just keep the 1.875-2.5m Gemini?

It would need a titan ii big enough to land on the mun is why.

@beale: Here are some thoughts on gemini though none are perfect solutions.

1. Take the current gemini throw away the service module and paint the lower half of the capsule cone white like the service module. It'll fit to 1.875 and at least look passable from a distance

2. Skip gemini and jump straight to bigG which will scale down to 1.875 cleanly you just lose some crew capacity

3. Make it 1.5m (Big question. will kerbals still it?) and exploit fairings and extra attachment nodes (apparently according to nathan kell they don't cause extra drag after all)

4. 1.25 gemini (kerbal still fit?) With 1.5 SM that has a 1.875 engine fairing.

[curtquarquesso]

Why can't they just keep the 1.875-2.5m Gemini?

It makes replicas difficult, and the 0.625 – 1.875m transition has always looks strange. @passinglurker provides the best reason however...

What if he added a low profile 0.9 to 0.625 meter adaptor and got rid of the parts with 0.625 meter ends? If someone wants to use the 0.625 meter port, all they have to do is put on the adaptor and the part works with the smaller docking port!

Still trades one part for another. Don't want people to drown in adapters and alternate parts. More multi-purpose parts are better.

More's the pity, because the Gusmobile is so cool! And the applications are diverse. We should blame Gus Grissom for having the audacity to marry a space capsule with a Corvette. I've played about with a Munar Gemini programme, but it restricts me to the FASA bubble for the most part. I should revisit it since I've got a better handle on the conjectural hardware that would have made things work.

The fact that they were considering using the Gemini capsule as a moon-lander still blows my mind.

It would need a titan ii big enough to land on the mun is why.

@beale: Here are some thoughts on gemini though none are perfect solutions.

1. Take the current gemini throw away the service module and paint the lower half of the capsule cone white like the service module. It'll fit to 1.875 and at least look passable from a distance

2. Skip gemini and jump straight to bigG which will scale down to 1.875 cleanly you just lose some crew capacity

3. Make it 1.5m (Big question. will kerbals still it?) and exploit fairings and extra attachment nodes (apparently according to nathan kell they don't cause extra drag after all)

4. 1.25 gemini (kerbal still fit?) With 1.5 SM that has a 1.875 engine fairing.

Gemini makes my head hurt. Sheesh. Pick your poison Beale.

Would chopping the SM/Propulsion part into its two components help? One being an SAS, the other being just propulsion? 1.25m capsule, 1.25m – 1.5m Avionics modules, 1.5 – 1.875m Propulsion module?

Gemini Mockup:

Left: 1.5m Capsule, 1.5m – 1.875m SM

Right: 1.25m Capsule, 1.25m – 1.5m Avionics Module, 1.5m – 1.875m Propulsion Module

Edited September 26, 2015 by curtquarquesso

[pTrevTrevs]

The fact that they were considering using the Gemini capsule as a moon-lander still blows my mind.

From what I understand, McDonnelwasn't happy about how NASA gave the contract for Apollo to North American, so they came up with Big G and lunar Gemini in an attempt to usurp North American and make more money.

[_Augustus_]

From what I understand, McDonnelwasn't happy about how NASA gave the contract for Apollo to North American, so they came up with Big G and lunar Gemini in an attempt to usurp North American and make more money.

Gemini would have allowed a direct landing with a Saturn C-3. Big Gemini was designed to fulfill what the Shuttle was meant to do, but unlike the Shuttle it is likely that Big G would have actually delivered what it promised.

And don't forget MOL!

Gemini was pretty superior to Apollo. It was lighter, smaller, and cheaper but still could operate independently for just as long as an Apollo.

Edited September 27, 2015 by _Augustus_

[Guest]

Gemini was pretty superior to Apollo. It was lighter, smaller, and cheaper but still could operate independently for just as long as an Apollo.

With significantly less space for crew and return samples, not to mention the risky scenario of landing on your back. All of which made Lunar Gemini nifty on paper but untenable in reality.

[hraban]

Gemini Mockup:

1.5m Capsule, 1.5m – 1.875m SM

Quick-Building of Gemini-Style

Front port 0.625 m

Backside Capsule diameter 1.5 m

Heatshield 1.5 m

Engine 1.5 m to 1.875 m

Well, 1.5 m diameter is not usable for other parts.

[pTrevTrevs]

Gemini would have allowed a direct landing with a Saturn C-3. Big Gemini was designed to fulfill what the Shuttle was meant to do, but unlike the Shuttle it is likely that Big G would have actually delivered what it promised.

And don't forget MOL!

Gemini was pretty superior to Apollo. It was lighter, smaller, and cheaper but still could operate independently for just as long as an Apollo.

With significantly less space for crew and return samples, not to mention the risky scenario of landing on your back. All of which made Lunar Gemini nifty on paper but untenable in reality.

Yeah, less space for crew, only two seats, a less sophisticated flight computer, a less powerful engine, a lower tolerance f for reentry heating, a primitive docking system... I could probably name many ways in which the production Gemini was inferior to the production Apollo. As for the Lunar Gemini, landing on your back, plus less room for samples, plus much less room for external hardware such as ALSEP, LRV, or that Lunar Flyer thing they thought about using instead of LRV render Lunar Gemini much less capable than Apollo.

Apollo, on the other hand, was considerably versatile, and was used in two different ways (Skylab, ASTP) that weren't originally planned when designing it. And being heavier and more expensive normally comes with being a larger, more advanced ship.

All aboard the Derail Express! Choo Choo!!

[Guest]

Apollo, on the other hand, was considerably versatile, and was used in two different ways (Skylab, ASTP) that weren't originally planned when designing it. And being heavier and more expensive normally comes with being a larger, more advanced ship.

All aboard the Derail Express! Choo Choo!!

Yeah, I was going easy on the kid (only because I needed to make popcorn for tonight's Doctor Who episode). There's a reason there was an Apollo Applications Program and no Gemini Applications Program, despite the best efforts of the Air Force.

Derailing over! Resume normal thread operations.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Jack Wolfe

[Beale]

Really like this mod! One question though, and that is about what the purpose of the Pol cargo block and the other cargo block is.

What do they do other than hold a bit of fuel and electricity? Maybe you should add some space inside to store stuff.

There is not much use for them, it's true

However, if you have KIS installed, it becomes a lot more practical.

Soyuz Solar Panels: Huh. That's a strange limitation. Can you show us in Unity why this is? I'm kinda curious now.

TKS: TKS could use some texture cleanup to match the TKS pod. What's your idea for the docking compartment and docking ports?

Salyut: A Salyut 6 & 7 cabin extension would be awesome! If you're considering 3.75m parts, go SkyLab. SkyLab scales perfectly to 3.75m in KSP. Be prepared to go all the way with SkyLab if you even make parts for it. Heh.

Venera + Probes: More probe parts would be awesome of course. How do you feel about aeroshells for the Venera probe?

Gemini: Gemini just sucks in KSP. No one can do it right because of the odd scaling ratios that always make off-sizes in KSP. There are basically two options for Gemini: 1.25m capsule with 1.25m – 1.5m SM, or 1.5m capsule with 1-25m – 1.875m SM. Those are pretty much the only ways to get the thing looking remotely correct. I favor the 1.5m capsule option, only because Titan II GLV scales to 1.875m in KSP. Big G would become a 1.5m – 1.875m part. You have my sympathies. Gemini is such a pain.

MonoProp Boxes: Wow. I didn't know I needed these! Could they double as KIS containers? That's basically what they were IRL.

Mir Docking Module: I like the 0.9375m version, but it does contribute to the part bloat problem. Is there any way you could make it compatible with both sizes?

Solar panels - Basically only one solar panel module in the config will be active, since we cannot have two sided transforms it's difficult (only able to specify one solar panel transform per module).

TKS - My thoughts exactly. Docking compartment may be flipped (would break saves a little) and docking ports will be remodeled as some kind of new port.

Salyut - Skylab is interesting, but wouldn't be complete without an Apollo capsule.

Venera - Aeroshell is very cool, if can be achieved close with stock fairing module (I doubt it).

Gemini - Below

MonoBoxes - possible use for them I agree.

Docking Module - It would be tricky, part bloat is not great - but I'm committed to provide both 0.625m and 0.9375m parts now, ehh.

What if he added a low profile 0.9 to 0.625 meter adaptor and got rid of the parts with 0.625 meter ends? If someone wants to use the 0.625 meter port, all they have to do is put on the adaptor and the part works with the smaller docking port!

Doesn't look good in some cases with adapters, especially when dealing with curves.

It would need a titan ii big enough to land on the mun is why.

@beale: Here are some thoughts on gemini though none are perfect solutions.

1. Take the current gemini throw away the service module and paint the lower half of the capsule cone white like the service module. It'll fit to 1.875 and at least look passable from a distance

2. Skip gemini and jump straight to bigG which will scale down to 1.875 cleanly you just lose some crew capacity

3. Make it 1.5m (Big question. will kerbals still it?) and exploit fairings and extra attachment nodes (apparently according to nathan kell they don't cause extra drag after all)

4. 1.25 gemini (kerbal still fit?) With 1.5 SM that has a 1.875 engine fairing.

All of those options are really quite unromantic, I can't lie. I cannot be sold on including 1.5m parts (as good as they fit in some places).

Quick-Building of Gemini-Style

Front port 0.625 m

Backside Capsule diameter 1.5 m

Heatshield 1.5 m

Engine 1.5 m to 1.875 m

http://i.imgur.com/Rf103Ga.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/xVk3bzO.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/rjox48U.png

Well, 1.5 m diameter is not usable for other parts.

Nice! But, where does the heatshield connect? It will break the outline of craft unless it is part of the command module.

Close to completion, just to finish Cygnus first.

Balance okay, I think.

1.875m Cygnus, thanks Curtquarquesso!

Edited September 27, 2015 by Beale

[Budgie]

Salyut - Skylab is interesting, but wouldn't be complete without an Apollo capsule.

You are bad. Though I definitely laughed

I think I'm also a proponent of the 1.5m parts. But while Gemini is a cool vehicle and an early 2-Kerbal pod is really useful, I can't say I've used tantares's Gemini capsule before.

[hraban]

Nice! But, where does the heatshield connect? It will break the outline of craft unless it is part of the command module.

I'm not a fan of integrated heat shields. With a separate part, the command module can be used more modular. Realism or not. It may like to look like, I will not rebuild.

BTW ... sorry Beale.

Edited September 27, 2015 by hraban

[DGatsby]

I'm not a fan of integrated heat shields. With a separate part, the command module can be used more modular. Realism or not. It may like to look like, I will not rebuild.

http://i.imgur.com/WXX90ly.png

Wow! I really like that.

[nothingSpecial]

I have heard you guys talking about Skylab and Apollo parts?

With Apollo (already possible), Gemini (already in, and you are talking more), Skylab (where you mentioned it) and Mercury (Tantares+), Tantares starts to become everything-space-race-and-beyond-and-still-perfectly-modular-mod.

I must warn you. That is too awesome. You can't handle it! You madmen!

[pTrevTrevs]

I'm not a fan of integrated heat shields. With a separate part, the command module can be used more modular. Realism or not. It may like to look like, I will not rebuild.

http://i.imgur.com/WXX90ly.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/fRFYmNW.png

BTW ... sorry Beale.

The texture needs some work, it doesn't really look like Gemini, but the model looks good. I think the heatshield ought to be integrated into the capsule. Having it separate would cause part bloat, and would involve adding a large and obstructive fairing, which would ruin the outline of the craft.

[kopapaka]

The fact that they were considering using the Gemini capsule as a moon-lander still blows my mind.

[_Augustus_]

http://img18.rajce.idnes.cz/d1803/11/11509/11509823_4a07bec57533c466448cb56354add4bc/images/BIGMINIMUS.jpg?ver=0

What.

Is.

That.

A true demonstration of what you can do with AIES, Tantares, and OMSK...

[Thraken]

I'm in favor of keeping the gemini capsule at a 1.875 base. I think that 1.875 should be a stock size, but I'm not a big fan of many other sizes.

I believe that OrionKerman had a 1.5 m gemini capsule in HGR (named radish?). Using that capsule always felt wrong, as nothing ever fit it except for the EXACT parts made for it. It took out the creativity. Anytime you grabbed that pod, it was less about "what can I build with this", and more about "I have to build the exact spacecraft that this part was intended for". I believe it is what caused the creation of the Corvus. Corvus is a wonderful (!!!) pod and set of parts, but I just can't get over how I can't see 2 Kerbals fitting into such a small pod.

I guess I'm just saying I'm "team Gemini = 1.875m"

[Divico]

Oh, I like that! Is that released with the current version of Kosmodrome, because I feel that that's a must have for Tantares!

Released.

(Sorry Beale for the thread-hijack, but I have to blame you and OrionKermin for this )

[Guest]

Another vote for a 1.875m Gemini. It's a logical size and allows enough latitude for the Big G and loads of other variations.

[curtquarquesso]

http://img18.rajce.idnes.cz/d1803/11/11509/11509823_4a07bec57533c466448cb56354add4bc/images/BIGMINIMUS.jpg?ver=0

Hah! Nice!

Solar panels - Basically only one solar panel module in the config will be active, since we cannot have two sided transforms it's difficult (only able to specify one solar panel transform per module).

TKS - My thoughts exactly. Docking compartment may be flipped (would break saves a little) and docking ports will be remodeled as some kind of new port.

Salyut - Skylab is interesting, but wouldn't be complete without an Apollo capsule.

Gemini - Below

MonoBoxes - possible use for them I agree.

Docking Module - It would be tricky, part bloat is not great - but I'm committed to provide both 0.625m and 0.9375m parts now, ehh.

Close to completion, just to finish Cygnus first.

http://puu.sh/kpZ3n/9bf8e96c05.jpg

1.875m Cygnus, thanks Curtquarquesso!

Soyuz Solar Panels: Hmm. Regardless, the folding animation and the stowage is changing, right?

TKS: Flipped how?

SkyLab: Heh. I would hold off on SkyLab/Apollo until all other projects are finished, or you're going to get people hounding you for more.

Gemini: @Thraken has some good feedback on 1.5m parts. Easiest solution would be 1.25m Gemini with 1.25 –.1.875m service module. No 1.5m part needed.

MonoBoxes: I'll see if I can get on some KIS configs for them. Is there any way you could put some kind of implied latch/hinge on them to make them look like they could possibly be opened?

Docking Module: Just changing the end size to 0.9375 makes it loose some of it's shape. Could you just radial-Y scale the entire module so that the curve relations on the ends stay the same?

Cygnus: I was a little nervous at first, but the changes make sense. The text and the arrow was relocated to where it is in the PSD specifically so it'd point to the flag decal and give the player a visual orientation reference. I waffled a lot between "bolts or no bolts" for the top quite a bit. What do you think?

[clivman]

1.5 m gemini! Build the ISRO orbital vehicle for 1.875 m!

[_Augustus_]

1.5 m gemini! Build the ISRO orbital vehicle for 1.875 m!

ISRO stuff would be fun to muck around with.

[Beale]

I'm not a fan of integrated heat shields. With a separate part, the command module can be used more modular. Realism or not. It may like to look like, I will not rebuild.

http://i.imgur.com/WXX90ly.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/fRFYmNW.png

BTW ... sorry Beale.

Wow! Very nice texture (and fast!).

With Apollo (already possible), Gemini (already in, and you are talking more), Skylab (where you mentioned it) and Mercury (Tantares+), Tantares starts to become everything-space-race-and-beyond-and-still-perfectly-modular-mod.

A nice thought yes? But, a lot of work!

http://img18.rajce.idnes.cz/d1803/11/11509/11509823_4a07bec57533c466448cb56354add4bc/images/BIGMINIMUS.jpg?ver=0

Ohohoho, very eclectic, but I like it!

I'm in favor of keeping the gemini capsule at a 1.875 base. I think that 1.875 should be a stock size, but I'm not a big fan of many other sizes.

I believe that OrionKerman had a 1.5 m gemini capsule in HGR (named radish?). Using that capsule always felt wrong, as nothing ever fit it except for the EXACT parts made for it. It took out the creativity. Anytime you grabbed that pod, it was less about "what can I build with this", and more about "I have to build the exact spacecraft that this part was intended for". I believe it is what caused the creation of the Corvus. Corvus is a wonderful (!!!) pod and set of parts, but I just can't get over how I can't see 2 Kerbals fitting into such a small pod.

I guess I'm just saying I'm "team Gemini = 1.875m"

Good point, I think a normal size (I'm including 1.875m in that) is best

Released.

(Sorry Beale for the thread-hijack, but I have to blame you and OrionKermin for this )

Very cool!

Soyuz Solar Panels: Hmm. Regardless, the folding animation and the stowage is changing, right?

TKS: Flipped how?

SkyLab: Heh. I would hold off on SkyLab/Apollo until all other projects are finished, or you're going to get people hounding you for more.

Gemini: @Thraken has some good feedback on 1.5m parts. Easiest solution would be 1.25m Gemini with 1.25 –.1.875m service module. No 1.5m part needed.

MonoBoxes: I'll see if I can get on some KIS configs for them. Is there any way you could put some kind of implied latch/hinge on them to make them look like they could possibly be opened?

Docking Module: Just changing the end size to 0.9375 makes it loose some of it's shape. Could you just radial-Y scale the entire module so that the curve relations on the ends stay the same?

Cygnus: I was a little nervous at first, but the changes make sense. The text and the arrow was relocated to where it is in the PSD specifically so it'd point to the flag decal and give the player a visual orientation reference. I waffled a lot between "bolts or no bolts" for the top quite a bit. What do you think?

Yep solar panels will probably stow differently, still tweaking their appearance.

TKS - flip the docking compartment, so the pilot is facing forward (orient Nav-ball correct for docking), (Why does TKS have to fly backwards? Bleh!).

Monobox - Hatch is possible sure.

Docking module - that's not a bad idea at all, I'll try that.

Cygnus - ↓

Only issues I find:

• No way to tell between big and small panels, but this is fixed very easily.
  
• No practical RCS parts for good control
  

Not much change from the models you hand over to game, but I have taken a small opportunity to revamp the Cygnus texture a little.

Foil is removed (I will wait to find what Porkjettian stock foil is going to look like before creating more parts with foil textures).

Edited September 27, 2015 by Beale

[Kaput]

Apollo is already perfectly doable using TKS parts and looks pretty damned good. Only real things missing are a more accurate sized/shaped engine and maybe a bigger docking port/parachute combo.

Small request, could we have an adapter for the Soyuz rocket (R7/TLV whatever its called currently) that can be used instead of new fairing mount that can be used with procedural fairings? Maybe even a module manager patch for the current fairing base would work. The stock fairing model is a pain in the backside to make a remotely accurate looking fairing while procedural fairings does it fine.

[curtquarquesso]

Yep solar panels will probably stow differently, still tweaking their appearance.

TKS - flip the docking compartment, so the pilot is facing forward (orient Nav-ball correct for docking), (Why does TKS have to fly backwards? Bleh!).

Monobox - Hatch is possible sure.

Docking module - that's not a bad idea at all, I'll try that.

Cygnus - ↓

Only issues I find:

• No way to tell between big and small panels, but this is fixed very easily.
  
• No practical RCS parts for good control
  

http://puu.sh/kqnbQ/def7e276f6.jpg

http://puu.sh/kqq1K/6185334bf7.jpg

Not much change from the models you hand over to game, but I have taken a small opportunity to revamp the Cygnus texture a little.

Foil is removed (I will wait to find what Porkjettian stock foil is going to look like before creating more parts with foil textures).

http://puu.sh/kqqas/e4fc272c02.jpg

TKS: It'd be better for external view flying, but possibly not if you actually wanted to use it to dock... Hmm. I'd get some input on that first.

Cygnus Panels: Wow. I really like that. Great touch. I was thinking about trying my hand at circular panels one day... One day...

Cygnus SM: I don't mind not having the foil, there's sound logic on waiting on PorkJet, but I'm not sure about the stripe. I think access panels and stickers might be a better fit. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of UV space for uniquely sided panels.

Cygnus PCM: The bolts look much better. Neat stuff.

Cygnus RCS: You're certainly right about the RCS. How about these?

Just a small, dual jet linear RCS port for either ATV or Cygnus. I usually use the Vostok ones, but they haven't been updated in a while, and they have to be rotated and stuff... For the RCS jets near the top of the Cygnus PCM (they're really difficult to make out in images), a Tantares 3-way RCS block is about right.