[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[Beale]

Let's see... we got 3 stages for a 6,3 ton payload. I will assume the Kvant-1 + tug weighs in at 7 tons (which it probably doesn't), and shoot for 4750m/s for a reasonable margin of error to perform a 51.6 inclination 400km x 400km orbit.

I will also go with stock fuel tank/dry weight ratios, and I will assume the 1st stage has an Isp of 340 seconds, the 2nd one has around 365, and the 3rd one brings us to 370.

I shall also assume that each stage will have about the same delta-V, as IRL. That means each stage needs to have around 1580m/s delta-V.

This is what I came up with:

http://i.imgur.com/OGZzl0P.jpg

Thanks!

But, I am not quite sure how to read the spreadsheet?

Yay, just in time home for the Beta! I love it!

Very good!

But, let's call it some kind of troubleshooting alpha, still need to do the fairings...

What do you need help with?

I think that you should balance the weight of these parts against the stock pods / engines / tanks rather than against real-world values. If you're going for pure realism, the Proton should be almost 3x as wide as it currently is, and the Soyuz should be a 3m wide part. Those sizes don't translate well to the scaled down Kerbal world. I also don't like the idea of making the Salyut parts too heavy.

If you're going for pure realism, the Proton should spontaneously fail 10-15% of the time. The R7 should spontaneously fail anywhere from 10-60% of the time. Protons that are carrying Soyuz spacecraft should catch fire around the engines and then the Soyuz should use its emergency system to fly off the top of the rocket to save the crew two seconds before the rocket explodes. The Salyut should unexpectedly leak fuel from time to time and need to be patched by an engineer. The Salyut should occasionally lose power without a reason and require an engineer to replace the batteries (this actually happened). Oh, and the crew should randomly experience hallucinations of bright orange clouds.

For the engines, I like the slightly "overpowered" values because they match the Kerbal stock engines. The real world engines are lacklustre in comparison.

1st stage 285 / 316

2nd stage 342 / ?

3rd stage 325 / ?

The new Salyut weights are based on comparisons to stock parts, they were really light before, now have more realistic "Kerbal" weights.

The aim for realism here is to just make the Proton perform as you would expect as if it was made from stock parts, not be overpowered, as the last one was way too powerful.

On a side note: I would rather like some of those random failure, but we'll leave that to DangIt

Edited January 6, 2015 by Beale

[CardBoardBoxProcessor]

You should make the Briz-M have the dropaway Dounut tank

Issue is Proton uses 2 stacked single X truss Decouplers. http://www.spaceflight101.com/proton-m-briz-m.html which are very square steel bar ish instead of struct like.

[Beale]

You should make the Briz-M have the dropaway Dounut tank

Issue is Proton uses 2 stacked single X truss Decouplers. http://www.spaceflight101.com/proton-m-briz-m.html which are very square steel bar ish instead of struct like.

http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/4173405_orig.jpg?441

Briz-M, for definite

It will build a nice three-tier of Fregat → Briz-M → Blok-D.

For decoupler / fairings, thanks for pointing that out, eh, a silly mistake on my part

[ZodiaK]

did you see that the paper space program guy might be tackling tantares next?

[dimovski]

Bloody hell you got cBBp watching your thread! cBBp!!!

Anyway, my spread sheet works like this:

ALV-II-I is the name I gave to the 1st stage. 14,43 is the mass of the 1st stage, when full. I didn't include any decouplers or engine mass however. Only the tank. The next one is the empty mass of the 1st stage, 1,60. Next comes the vacuum Isp, 340s. Then the thrust, 450kN. Next comes the core fuel tank cell. For your ALV unimportant, but I usually put this in to know if, for example, the N-IVKMV stage is Blok Sr based or Blok S based. The 2 white cells show the liftoff TWR and TWR at MECO. Same for the next 2 stages. Then comes the vacuum delta-V of all the stages + payload. Here you can't see the payload sadly, but it's 7 tons.

[Niemand303]

In time for my RSSA Salyut-1 launch!

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And a Duna-1 probe.

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[billbobjebkirk]

did you see that the paper space program guy might be tackling tantares next?

I wonder whose idea that was...

[Beale]

Updated Beta with engine fairings.

Well as it turns out, the mesh fairings are a little incorrect, but...

did you see that the paper space program guy might be tackling tantares next?

I've seen it now! Really cool!

Bloody hell you got cBBp watching your thread! cBBp!!!

Anyway, my spread sheet works like this:

ALV-II-I is the name I gave to the 1st stage. 14,43 is the mass of the 1st stage, when full. I didn't include any decouplers or engine mass however. Only the tank. The next one is the empty mass of the 1st stage, 1,60. Next comes the vacuum Isp, 340s. Then the thrust, 450kN. Next comes the core fuel tank cell. For your ALV unimportant, but I usually put this in to know if, for example, the N-IVKMV stage is Blok Sr based or Blok S based. The 2 white cells show the liftoff TWR and TWR at MECO. Same for the next 2 stages. Then comes the vacuum delta-V of all the stages + payload. Here you can't see the payload sadly, but it's 7 tons.

Hehe, cBBp has been here plenty! In fact the guy has been a monumental amount of help during some development

Even as kind as to produce the first stage of the N-1 which I am currently working on texture and fiddling around!

Ah! Thanks for the explenation! Makes sense now!

The fuel value is easy enough to calculate from the masses, the tanks may hold less than stock size equivalents, but DV will be correct

In time for my RSSA Salyut-1 launch!

http://imgur.com/a/MuJeb

And a Duna-1 probe.

http://imgur.com/a/f2QMk

Wow! You are fast!

I like the design of the Duna probe! Need to make some dedicated parts...

I wonder whose idea that was...

Haha, many thanks for the "promotion"

[biohazard15]

I think is your main problem with Proton balancing is thrust.

You simply do not need so much power in its 1st stage. 2700 in ALV-1 was already overkill, but now it's 3000, combined with bad Isp.

In stock, it's not much of a problem. It gets worse if you use DRE or FAR. It gets absolutely BAD if you use both, especially with KIDS.

Here's Sentinel, my Proton-esque rocket. The design dates back to 0.22(sic!!!) and hadn't changed since - simply because it's not needed. It flies perfectly with stock, NEAR, FAR, KIDS, DRE, etc. without any modifications (although I probably should remove these winglets). Payload is in range of 15-30 tons to LKO, depending on mods (15 tons in full stock, more if you add FAR\NEAR).

Note the following:

- With a 20-ton NRAP dummy, its TWR never exceeds 3. It will exceed 3 if you launch something smaller, but I have something cheaper for that.

- When flown to 100x100km orbit, it ends with approximately 750 m\s of Dv in its 3rd stage (again, with 20ton dummy), with FAR and KIDS in "FAR to stock, Atmospheric only" preset.

- The engines are following (from bottom to top): 2400 kN, 1400 kN, 475 kN. 1st stage may appear underpowered, but it's just an illusion - it does its job very good.

That being said: Proton needs a really good nerf to its 1st stage thrust.

[Beale]

I think is your main problem with Proton balancing is thrust.

You simply do not need so much power in its 1st stage. 2700 in ALV-1 was already overkill, but now it's 3000, combined with bad Isp.

In stock, it's not much of a problem. It gets worse if you use DRE or FAR. It gets absolutely BAD if you use both, especially with KIDS.

Here's Sentinel, my Proton-esque rocket. The design dates back to 0.22(sic!!!) and hadn't changed since - simply because it's not needed. It flies perfectly with stock, NEAR, FAR, KIDS, DRE, etc. without any modifications (although I probably should remove these winglets). Payload is in range of 15-30 tons to LKO, depending on mods (15 tons in full stock, more if you add FAR\NEAR).

http://i.imgur.com/Elfj60p.jpg

Note the following:

- With a 20-ton NRAP dummy, its TWR never exceeds 3. It will exceed 3 if you launch something smaller, but I have something cheaper for that.

- When flown to 100x100km orbit, it ends with approximately 750 m\s of Dv in its 3rd stage (again, with 20ton dummy), with FAR and KIDS in "FAR to stock, Atmospheric only" preset.

- The engines are following (from bottom to top): 2400 kN, 1400 kN, 475 kN. 1st stage may appear underpowered, but it's just an illusion - it does its job very good.

That being said: Proton needs a really good nerf to its 1st stage thrust.

That's a good argument there (I'm not really sure why I upped it to 3000...)

So, following the "Sentinel", I think I'll try 2400KN and see how that handles

Unrelated, but who is this little fella?

[ZodiaK]

I think that pod is novapunch

[biohazard15]

Unrelated, but who is this little fella?

http://puu.sh/e9Lo3/e3dfb13d28.jpg

Bootleg Command Module from NovaPunch.

[Beale]

I think that pod is novapunch

Bootleg Command Module from NovaPunch.

http://i.imgur.com/2o2Rkye.jpg

Thanks!

Looks cool!

[dimovski]

Old NovaPunch bootleg capsule?

EDIT:Ninja'd.

[biohazard15]

Oh, I almost forgot - please add some fuel into TLV LES. Currently it burns for half a second, which is barely enough to clear the rocket. I suggest quadrupling it at least (from 15 to 60), which allow a nice 2-second burn for safe escape.

[wasmic]

Oh, I almost forgot - please add some fuel into TLV LES. Currently it burns for half a second, which is barely enough to clear the rocket. I suggest quadrupling it at least (from 15 to 60), which allow a nice 2-second burn for safe escape.

And even that is on the low end of the scale. Take a look at the burn time of various real life escape systems, both Apollo and Orion escape systems have burn times that are much longer. This also provides more of an incentive to ditch the LES as soon as it's safe to do, since they'll weigh more.

[biohazard15]

And even that is on the low end of the scale. Take a look at the burn time of various real life escape systems, both Apollo and Orion escape systems have burn times that are much longer. This also provides more of an incentive to ditch the LES as soon as it's safe to do, since they'll weigh more.

Soyuz T-10-1's LES fired for five seconds with 14g acceleration, and the descent module separated from it at 650m. In KSP, such LES would easily send your capsule into upper atmosphere, especially with FAR.

Since 500m is "default" chute opening altitude in KSP, I say that 650-700m should be the target, maybe up to 1km.

[CrisK]

I managed to use the new Proton to send a TKS to Minmus and land it to fulfill a stations contract. I'm a fan!

I'd be happy to share screenshots. What's the best service to use with this forum? imgur?

What are you guys using in terms of separators or decouplers with the protons? The stock ones ruin the color scheme (and are quite ugly). I've been using the blue TR-XL separators, but at 900 a pop that's an expensive option since separators can't be recovered (even with stage recovery).

[Djolox]

Merry Christmas Eastern Commrades!

(Oh, it is christmas for me too)

[DGatsby]

My new space lab:

Unfourtantly bad action group planning meant my Fuji's service module was detached when I extended the solar panels on the lab. I'll have to use the ATV's engines to lower the orbit enough to let my kerbals reenter in the Fuji, and then hope I can reboost the station into orbit again with the ATV.

[Darth Lazarus]

about the balancing issues of the Proton-redux:

every russian/soviet/ukranian(...) rocket was/is slightly overpowered on liftoff compared to european or murrican counterparts. but yes 3000 on liftoff (for 20 tons) is overkill. why not aiming for something like this

with a 21 ton payload and dV budget of 4500 m/s to 4700 m/s to reach a stable 75 x 75 kilometer orbit:

first stage: TWR of 1.6 to 1.7 thrust ??

second stage: TWR of 1.4 to 1.6 thrust ??

thrist stage: thrust of ~300 for orbital insertion (similar to the real deal)

i got these numbers after watching some KSP streams on KSP TV (mostly with Das Valdez, awesome guy). The "normal" two stage rocket for KSP should have ~ 4.500 m/s dV, frist stage TWR of ~ 1.7 and secodn stage TWR of ~1.5. This is pretty good and teh rocket roars to sky fast, but not to fast. So this could be used as a calculationbase for the new Proton.

about engine weight:

just go with 1.25 to 1.5 tons PER big nozzle. wich means the second stage engine could have a weight between 5 and 6 tons. why such numbers? i just compared it with the stock LVT 30 and 45. so one vissible engine of teh Proton which consists of a nozzle, turbopump and plumbing weights should be similar to the weight of the visual similar-sized stock counterparts.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Darth Lazarus

[SpartanChief]

~stuff~

about engine weight:

just go with 1.25 to 1.5 tons PER big nozzle. wich means the second stage engine could have a weight between 5 and 6 tons. why such numbers? i just compared it with the stock LVT 30 and 45. so one vissible engine of teh Proton which consists of a nozzle, turbopump and plumbing weights should be similar to the weight of the visual similar-sized stock counterparts.

For a first stage engine this is a valid approach, but for 2nd/3rd stage I'd say it makes more sense to stick closer to real world numbers - such as these. Take into account thruster plate/fuel tank reinforcements and something like 2.5 - 3 tonnes for second and 0.8-1.5 tonnes for third stage engine appear reasonable. It might seem really low, but don't forget that those engines are not great at all categories - their ISP curve is considerably worse than in comparable stock engines.

Edited January 7, 2015 by SpartanChief

[AppleDavidJeans]

My new space lab:

http://i.imgur.com/MqysZXr.png

Unfourtantly bad action group planning meant my Fuji's service module was detached when I extended the solar panels on the lab. I'll have to use the ATV's engines to lower the orbit enough to let my kerbals reenter in the Fuji, and then hope I can reboost the station into orbit again with the ATV.

Or you can send up a rescue spacecraft

[Z3R0_0NL1N3]

Beale, as much as I love the Russian pack theme, I think you need to add a few other rockets. Maybe some American ones, or an ESA one (for the ATV). Just a thought. And if you've ever considered making the Dragon... Heh.

Anyway, I'm super-excited about the new Proton! It's awesome!

[biohazard15]

Beale, as much as I love the Russian pack theme, I think you need to add a few other rockets. Maybe some American ones, or an ESA one (for the ATV). Just a thought. And if you've ever considered making the Dragon... Heh.

Anyway, I'm super-excited about the new Proton! It's awesome!

Nah, there's enough stock-alike American rockets already - you've got nearly everything except maybe Atlas (its 1 1\2 stage design is hard to reproduce, so use FASA).