[1.1] RemoteTech v1.6.10 [2016-04-12]

[RabidMonkey]

The reason we dont allow it in RemoteTech is because such an action is impossible in the real world. We felt that enabling something that clearly violates the laws of physics would not fit with the theme of the mod.

We need to have a better safety net for when you go out of range and there are a lot of ideas on how to do this. Adding a hack that lets you contact probes with no connection is, in my opinion, just a lazy hack. Which is why i denied the pull request. All of the other options are harder to implement than a simple hand wave of the rules.

Given how common it is on real-world probes to have a backup low-gain antenna that can be used just like this, what if the option was available, but depended on having an omni antenna active? If your probe is dish-only, then you're SOL - poor design decision. If your omni isn't active or you're out of power - too bad, you turned off the backup and you're SOL. But if there is an active omni, available power, and clear LOS to a command station that has the range to reach the probe normally, then it can be used to reorient the high-gain antenna - just like on real-world craft. No other flight control, because this is a super-low bitrate we're talking about, but just enough to point the dish and regain full connectivity. I'd further suggest that the integrated omni in probe cores wouldn't count for this purpose. If you want a backup system, you pay for it in funds, part count, and power.

Thoughts?

[LostOblivion]

Shouldn't omnis be able to talk to dishes even if the dish is out of range? I mean, IRL, the max range is a function of both antennas, unlike in RT where it is only a function of the one with the shortest range.

Edited April 29, 2015 by LostOblivion

[johnsonwax]

I don't think that's how the backup code would work as a dish wouldn't iterate over all possible coordinates. My understanding is that the backup code would have a fallback to point to a specific location. So for instance in the VAB you would pick an existing target (can't be an unlaunched vessel), most likely Mission Control, and if the ship lost connection RT would activate antenna/dish and then automatically enter that default target. If that target (say Mission Control) is blocked, then you still have no control. If that target is no longer in service (you deorbited it, or nothing else is in the cone if you pick a planetary body) then you still have a dead craft.

That would lead to three general strategies:

1) In Kerbin SOI, you'd likely point to Mission Control, and possibly have to wait some hours for your craft to have LOS to Kerbin and to Mission Control. Hopefully you aren't sub-orbital...

2) Outside Kerbin SOI, you'd point to Kerbin and worst case pick up Mission Control, or if you had nothing in orbit, you could tossup a satellite and it would pick up the new satellite in that case.

3) Fail to set a backup, in which case you must make sure you activate/target before you lose control from your fixed antenna, etc.

So in the case of a deep space probe that was set to target a relay in solar orbit near Kerbin, should that relay need to be replaced, you'd set Kerbin as your backup. When you take the relay out of service, the probe loses connection, activates dish, targets Kerbin, picks up Mission Control or some other sat in orbit, and when the replacement relay is up, you can then re-target your probe to the new relay.

The problem with iterating over the target list is that the probe might have a limited number of targets to check, but it would never have that entire list. If a single backup was insufficient, then providing two backups shouldn't be too much harder.

Edit: And yes, I think omni's should be able to talk to dishes, but is that really a common problem? I never launch a dish probe that doesn't also have an omni simply so that I have a suitable recovery option if needed. That basically means that everything has an omni.

Edited April 29, 2015 by johnsonwax

[okbillybunnyface]

Shouldn't omnis be able to talk to dishes even if the dish is out of range? I mean, IRL, the max range is a function of both antennas, unlike in RT where it is only a function of the one with the shortest range.

It was like that in RT, but they changed it to the simplified version in RT2, I believe.

edit: This actually still exists in RT2, but you have to manually enable it in the RemoteTech_Settings.cfg. http://remotetechnologiesgroup.github.io/RemoteTech/guide/settings/

Edited April 29, 2015 by okbillybunnyface

[EVDE]

Does anyone here know an alternative to Remote Tech 2 that does work on KSP 1.0 or does anyone know when a compatible version will be released?

It is a installed by default on my ksp installs but now it doesn't work.

Or is there a 3th party fix or something?

Thanks!

[Mecripp]

This is AntennaRange you don't get the pretty lines but LOS can be turned off or on http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/56440-0-25-AntennaRange-1-4-2-Enforce-and-Encourage-Antenna-Diversity

[Schmonzo]

Does anyone here know an alternative to Remote Tech 2 that does work on KSP 1.0 or does anyone know when a compatible version will be released?

It is a installed by default on my ksp installs but now it doesn't work.

Or is there a 3th party fix or something?

Thanks!

Lol, it has not been 2 days since release, unless you are sponsoring the modders that make this marvellous mod, you should try some patience, they are doing this in their free time. There will be an update eventually and I sincerely doubt that there will be another mod that will be as awesome as this one.

[somnambulist]

Given how common it is on real-world probes to have a backup low-gain antenna that can be used just like this, what if the option was available, but depended on having an omni antenna active?

I was theorycrafting a way to do this but tabled it when the 1.0 release date was announced. Split the antennas into two groups -- low gain telemetry antennas, high gain data transmission antennas. Low gain would be wide-ish angle directional (not omni) with lower power requirements and a prohibitively low mit-rate. High gain would be very narrow beam with higher power requirements but a mit-rate that makes it possible to transmit data in a reasonable timeframe. Telemetry would be much easier than standard RemoteTech but would be balanced by increasing the power requirements for science recovery and requiring direct connections between transmitters.

[vosechu]

I was theorycrafting a way to do this but tabled it when the 1.0 release date was announced. Split the antennas into two groups -- low gain telemetry antennas, high gain data transmission antennas. Low gain would be wide-ish angle directional (not omni) with lower power requirements and a prohibitively low mit-rate. High gain would be very narrow beam with higher power requirements but a mit-rate that makes it possible to transmit data in a reasonable timeframe. Telemetry would be much easier than standard RemoteTech but would be balanced by increasing the power requirements for science recovery and requiring direct connections between transmitters.

This is what I do on al my sats just in case. I always have the small omni, a dts, and then more dts or one giant dish. Then I point one of the dts at kerbin since it's a wide angle. Usually works well for me.

[undercoveryankee]

I was theorycrafting a way to do this but tabled it when the 1.0 release date was announced. Split the antennas into two groups -- low gain telemetry antennas, high gain data transmission antennas. Low gain would be wide-ish angle directional (not omni) with lower power requirements and a prohibitively low mit-rate. High gain would be very narrow beam with higher power requirements but a mit-rate that makes it possible to transmit data in a reasonable timeframe. Telemetry would be much easier than standard RemoteTech but would be balanced by increasing the power requirements for science recovery and requiring direct connections between transmitters.

I was thinking about suggesting a similar approach. Perhaps allow the short-range dishes to double as low-gain antennas with the same field of view but longer range for the low-gain functions.

[vosechu]

Thank you so much mods! I really appreciate your hard work. This is one of my absolute favorite mods! I feel like a real engineer when I use rt2!

[John FX]

I don't think that's how the backup code would work as a dish wouldn't iterate over all possible coordinates. My understanding is that the backup code would have a fallback to point to a specific location. So for instance in the VAB you would pick an existing target (can't be an unlaunched vessel), most likely Mission Control, and if the ship lost connection RT would activate antenna/dish and then automatically enter that default target. If that target (say Mission Control) is blocked, then you still have no control. If that target is no longer in service (you deorbited it, or nothing else is in the cone if you pick a planetary body) then you still have a dead craft.

That would lead to three general strategies:

1) In Kerbin SOI, you'd likely point to Mission Control, and possibly have to wait some hours for your craft to have LOS to Kerbin and to Mission Control. Hopefully you aren't sub-orbital...

2) Outside Kerbin SOI, you'd point to Kerbin and worst case pick up Mission Control, or if you had nothing in orbit, you could tossup a satellite and it would pick up the new satellite in that case.

3) Fail to set a backup, in which case you must make sure you activate/target before you lose control from your fixed antenna, etc.

So in the case of a deep space probe that was set to target a relay in solar orbit near Kerbin, should that relay need to be replaced, you'd set Kerbin as your backup. When you take the relay out of service, the probe loses connection, activates dish, targets Kerbin, picks up Mission Control or some other sat in orbit, and when the replacement relay is up, you can then re-target your probe to the new relay.

The problem with iterating over the target list is that the probe might have a limited number of targets to check, but it would never have that entire list. If a single backup was insufficient, then providing two backups shouldn't be too much harder.

Edit: And yes, I think omni's should be able to talk to dishes, but is that really a common problem? I never launch a dish probe that doesn't also have an omni simply so that I have a suitable recovery option if needed. That basically means that everything has an omni.

All valid points but for gameplay and user ease, automatically checking the list transparently for the user seems the better option to me.

Having to manually set up a backup also sounds tedious. I don't see the point in artificially setting up conditions for failure either.

EDIT : It's like doing a scan over the sky for any signals then using whatever route you find to attempt a relay to KSC. Sometimes there won't be a route so you don't get any control.

Edited April 29, 2015 by John FX

[critic]

What about having lists with comm-sats for particular bodies, you setup your relay lists and the craft cycles through the list trying to connect according to what body it is near. Then there is no need to set particular connection point for each craft, you just set the lists. The current satellite selection list could be re-purposed as the comms list, it already lists all the satellites and their local bodies?

[somnambulist]

I was thinking about suggesting a similar approach. Perhaps allow the short-range dishes to double as low-gain antennas with the same field of view but longer range for the low-gain functions.

That was pretty much the idea. None of this ever got past theorycrafting an attempt to make RemoteTech simultaneously more challenging yet less tedious. I'll probably put some actual work into it once we get a 1.0 compatible version of RT.

[MacroNova]

So, if a probe has no connection and the vehicle is in focus, why not simulate it checking all the other options in the target list until it finds one with a connection?

It's a simulation of backup code on the probe rather than a 'lazy hack', doesn't violate physics and you would only get control if a signal got through which maintains realism. This mode could even use more power.

What's more, it's easy to code

If this is indeed easy to code, I think it's a great solution.

[prog]

I have idea - why not to look at problem from different point of view?

Instead of messing with networking principles imagine some sort of "doomsday device" - satellite with powerful enough dish antenna to reach disconnected vessel and send basic control command like "look at me", effectively overriding all targets for dishes in range to point at "doomsday device" satellite.

That's it - any omni that falls in range of "doomsday device" will be doomed with "look at me" command so care should be taken or you'll screw up everything instead of recovering.

And you'll have no luck if you don't have active omni at disconnected vessel or no probe core there to calculate position of "doomsday device" to point dishes at.

[Drew Kerman]

What's more, it's easy to code

I'm sure the devs are looking forward to your pull request

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Lol, it has not been 2 days since release, unless you are sponsoring the modders that make this marvellous mod, you should try some patience, they are doing this in their free time. There will be an update eventually and I sincerely doubt that there will be another mod that will be as awesome as this one.

Actually, that's a good point. Where's the "Sponsor" button, anyway?

[Heineken]

Don’t mistake my intention RemoteTech is the best mod there is and really makes KSP.

But I’m finding some things a little strange, and would like to have some light shine on by the developers and/or player. But first of all the my opinion of the latest discussion, propes out of range are lost. as of facing the wrong target, well read what i miss in RT. I won’t elaborate why in prospect of reading time

1. kerbal has only 1 space centre (unless to powerful mod), But only 1 coms dish array who’s power doesn’t get stronger with upgrading?
   I find it strange that the KSC has a fixed coms range I really miss the opportunity to buy/build (for other celestial bodies) ground connected coms dish arrays. That also can be ranged upgraded to increase range. (having a small prope sitting next to your TS who is stronger than the TS is really strange!)
   
2. Sending and receiving.
   This is my Major point, of course receiving information requires a connection, but it shouldn’t be that difficult to receive info. Transmitting on the other hand should require a much stronger dish. RT tries this a little with transmitting power but this only applies to science.
   I would love to see the Sending and receiving max range split up. This allows for a lot more specific antenna usages.
   Like:
   

• Omni’s only can receive info they can’t send info. This means u can control the prope but not use it as a relay. (or really nerve relay connection)
  
• Dishes can receive info in a Omni direction (can nerve Omni receiving distance, in favour of also having a omni anntena), but can only send/relay in cone connection (and/or buff receiving in cone connection)
  This would allow for a difference In relay purpose antenna’s /satellite and end stage antenna’s /satellite also it fixes lost connection because it’s the facing wrong target since all receiving info is in a Omni direction.
  

plz shine your light if this is possible, and or a good idea. Or what it needs to become a good idea.

Thx Heineken

Why?:

I hated that my comms array needed receiving and sending antenna’s , 1 facing the relay, and 1 facing the relayed, and then one for the target.

Instead I would like to have 1 transmitting comms satellite in high orbit with strong dish, with a couple in receiving in low for covering the dark side of planet without having each low comms needing big dish antenna for contact with the high comms.

[Sigma88]

Someone soma pages back asked your question number 1 and the answer was that

the reason why the ksc has such a crappy antenna is to make players build a comms network

If I am remembering that correctly.

I actually never noticed how short the ksc antenna was since I never went outside kerbin without a communication network set up

[erendrake]

So, if a probe has no connection and the vehicle is in focus, why not simulate it checking all the other options in the target list until it finds one with a connection?

It's a simulation of backup code on the probe rather than a 'lazy hack', doesn't violate physics and you would only get control if a signal got through which maintains realism. This mode could even use more power.

What's more, it's easy to code

I think that is a reasonable approach. for a start we have talked about simply having the craft raise its biggest dish and point it at kerbin if there are no active antenna. There are many interesting ways of improving RemoteTech to make loosing a craft to disconnect less common through proper planning. Its one of the first features i want to add once we get RT updated to 1.0.

I think we might have a release candidate for people to test pretty soon. RC means that is most likely contains bees that will blow up your solar panels so make sure you back up your saves

[Flayer]

I've been refreshing this thread for quite a while over the past two days. Its the last mod that I need to start my career game. I think I'm willing to risk a release candidate at this point! :-)

[Zeenobit]

I've been refreshing this thread for quite a while over the past two days. Its the last mod that I need to start my career game. I think I'm willing to risk a release candidate at this point! :-)

Same here. I tried playing KSP 1.0 without this mod. I transmitted my first science data, and I was immediately disappointed at how easy it all was.

[ebanoac]

I've been refreshing this thread for quite a while over the past two days. Its the last mod that I need to start my career game. I think I'm willing to risk a release candidate at this point! :-)

Since TAC LS is out I am eagerly waiting for RT and ScanSat to finally begin my career mode.

[Errol]

I can live without scansat for a while because it isn't really useful beyond science collection until you hit the ISRU portion of the tech tree. This is important to get our careers started right. I hope that XM gets updated soon as well.