[0.25] Realism Overhaul w/ RedAV8R [Terminated]

[Woopert]

Here's a sample of the CFG for the part. Tell me if you'd like anything changed. I also somehow found who the manufacturer for the adapter is -- it's Teledyne (surprisingly never heard of them before). blackheart612 did 99% of the CFG work, I just did the tweaking to it. Oh, and glad you were able to make the Pyrios more accurate. Will you be using ModuleManager to add the upper parts to the booster? You could use a stretched orange tank for the LOX tank and could add a white nosecone; that would be very nice!

http://www.teledyne.com/news/tdy_02042014.asp

// --- editor parameters ---
TechRequired = metaMaterials
entryCost = 20000
cost = 6000
category = Structural
subcategory = 0
title = SLS Launch Vehicle Stage Adapter
manufacturer = Teledyne
description = This adapter connects the core stage of the Space Launch System (Block I) to the Interim Cryogenic Propulsion Stage, or ICPS (also known as the Delta Cryogenic Second Stage, or DCSS)

// attachment rules: stack, srfAttach, allowStack, allowSrfAttach, allowCollision
attachRules = 1,0,1,1,0

// --- standard part parameters ---
mass = 0.600
dragModelType = default
maximum_drag = 0.2
minimum_drag = 0.3
angularDrag = 2
crashTolerance = 12
maxTemp = 800
breakingForce = 250
breakingTorque = 250

MODULE
{
    name = ModuleDecouple
    ejectionForce = 200
	explosiveNodeID = top
}

Edited August 18, 2014 by Woopert

[HoneyFox]

Hey NK & RedAV8R, come to say that I'm pretty impressed by that NSTAR ion engine in RO. I mean the realistic thrust value of it. You are really aggressive on that, I thought tweaking it to something like 0.005kN was already weak enough to be a good balance between reality and game-play (even if it's used with my OMS plugin)

And now those Near Future's ion engines are just like cheating.

[Bothersome]

Just like to pipe in and say I've been enjoying RO quite a bit lately. I've been playing under the 64bit version of KSP though. I didn't know we weren't supposed to. (I'm guilty of just skimming the read-me files.)

I've pretty much had no errors or crashes that I can say were related to any of the mods that I've installed. The only non-standard thing I did when installing the mods is, I went though each one and deleted the older Module Manager DLL file. I only wanted one installed and it is at version 2.2.2 at the moment. I took out all the older versions from some of the older mod packages. When I first tried RO and some of those mods installed together, I was having a game lockup problem. So then I went in and took out the older versions.

Here is my current mods that seem to be working well under 64bit...

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157

[D:\Steam\steamapps\common\Kerbal Space Program\MODS]

RealSolarSystem7.2

Advanced Jet Engines

DeadlyReentry

EngineIgnitor

RealChute1.2

MechJeb2

RealFuels

FerramAerospaceResearch

KerbalJointReinforcement

RemoteTech

TacLifeSupport

TweakScale

RealismOverhaul

ProcFairings

I would just like to say, thanks to all you excellent mod makers out there. You have done a fine job. You work improves with each day it seems.

As far as game play is concerned, I found it a bit frustrating at first to get a working rocket ship to put my first satellites up. I realized that I needed some first link from the Command Center. So I had to use a manned ship to take up the first satellite. No problem. But not understanding and getting my head around what RemoteTech mod was doing made it a little confusing. After a while and through some experimenting, I finally got my head around the gist of it all and think it's a pretty nice system. I would have thought though that the dipole antenna would transmit further than only a million meters. A dipole is actually pretty sensitive for longer wave signals if you take into consideration of metal structures that can throw off the SWRs and whatnot. The long whip can reach 8 million, so the dipole should probably reach about half that. Depending on the frequency used. And since the dipole is smaller it must be using a higher frequency and therefore would punch through the ionosphere better. But hey, I'm rambling again. Point is, these things make it a little frustrating for the newbie, but their function is definitely worth the learning curve. Keep up the good work.

Now, anyone know of any places I can look at some example craft of successful launch vehicles and other stuff for RO?

[HoneyFox]

snipped...

Now, anyone know of any places I can look at some example craft of successful launch vehicles and other stuff for RO?

There was once a thread that share rockets using RSS/RO, in the General Discussion section IIRC. But i wonder if .craft files are provided or just some screenshots.

[mecki]

There is a Tutorial and how-to Site linked on the OP of the lastest RemoteTech.

and there is a Craft file show/exchange thread for RSS launchers somewhere (it was linked to quite a few pages earlier, I will look for the link later.

[mecki]

Here is the Realism Overhaul Craft Repository

[Bothersome]

Thanks a bunch, I'll go give it a looksee.

I did manage to make a fairly small rocket finally just for lifting to orbit a small satellite.

BTW, I still don't like how extended antennas blow off on the way. They come loose way too easy. The dipole doesn't have enough range and the whip falls off at about 70m/s even while it set up to wind-vane. I guess they didn't have a way to take into account the orientation of the antennas.

[RedAV8R]

Hey NK & RedAV8R, come to say that I'm pretty impressed by that NSTAR ion engine in RO. I mean the realistic thrust value of it. You are really aggressive on that, I thought tweaking it to something like 0.005kN was already weak enough to be a good balance between reality and game-play (even if it's used with my OMS plugin)

And now those Near Future's ion engines are just like cheating.

Thank you HoneyFox! BTW grab the latest git and all but the Aerojet 73F SRB has a thrust curve on it now. Since all efforts, short of contacting ESA, has failed in providing a thrust curve the EAP thrust profile is a bit of a WAG, but fuel consumption, burn time, and max and average thrust all match real world figures, so while it may not be real, it's better than nothing.

Thanks a bunch, I'll go give it a looksee.

I did manage to make a fairly small rocket finally just for lifting to orbit a small satellite.

BTW, I still don't like how extended antennas blow off on the way. They come loose way too easy. The dipole doesn't have enough range and the whip falls off at about 70m/s even while it set up to wind-vane. I guess they didn't have a way to take into account the orientation of the antennas.

If you know more about radio and what not, we'd love to get some good info from you. For the most part, the RT2 stuff is a WAG, none of us have radio experience, and so any good info would be extremely helpful, feel free to send me a PM and we can talk more about it if you are interested.

Edited August 18, 2014 by RedAV8R

[Bothersome]

I don't have any electronics reference books on it anymore. I put all those in storage about 20 years ago. I'm just remembering from my old HAM days. Some of the basic things are a little hard to forget. I think you have the antennas feel pretty good, but the dipole, in my mind is set a bit weak. And whips wouldn't catch much air to break them off but will burn off real fast in a re-entry type situation.

I'd doubt the game engine is going to allow you to mimic real antennas and radio propagation much. Nor simulate ionosphere reflection for lower frequencies. Basically, a whip antenna for space travel, let's assume you want a full wave antenna (highest frequency possible for a given length antenna), and based on the appearing length of the whip, I'd say you are at about 90MHz. Well into the FM band of common radio. So you wouldn't have ionosphere bounce and reflection problems at that frequency. To receive any good signal from say the Moon's distance, you'd need a good "Moon Raker" antenna (one with many direction focusing elements, sort of like a large TV antenna but with vertical and horizontal elements). You'd need about 500 to 1000 watts for HAM operator type transmissions or maybe about 100 watts for NASA and super sensitive and tuned equipment. That is if you using a 90MHz transmission for the long whip. Higher frequencies (the kind reflectors and dishes use) can use way less power because the energy is focused more. But in the game (RT mod), you have more power being used for bigger dishes and to get further. This is common misconception about radio. To transmit, you need power but it can come from a small antenna. Even the smallest dish can transmit across the solar system given enough power. Probably about 200 watts at 10Ghz. But to receive from long distances, you do need large dishes. The large reflector is like a large magnifying lense for radio waves. You have to gather more of that energy to focus it onto a small little wire inside the feed horn. The bigger the dish, the more energy you collect (provided it's shaped right).

To get more immersive on RT, we need movable and tracking antennas. I know, that's probably not an easy thing to do. But it's something that would bring out the coolness of RT. And the dishes, should have at least point in the direction of where you want to communicate.

I know that is the maker of RemoteTech to do most of that. But as far as RO is concerned, If it were up to me, I'd just make the dipole go about 4 million meters and make the dipole and the whips stick a little better to their mounting, but weaken the heat factor perhaps. (I have not tried a re-entry on any of these yet, so I don't know if they burn up too quick or not at all)

Edited August 18, 2014 by Bothersome

[Shurikeeen]

Why I need ~4000 m/s delta-v to get 100x100km orbit around Kerbin? D:

Edited August 18, 2014 by Shurikeeen

[jandcando]

Hey, everyone! I've been enjoying realism overhaul so far without any problems, and I would like to point out that after I downloaded AIES I now have 2 LEM ascent engines and 2 LEM descent engines. I do like the AIES ones better because they are slightly lighter, but what should I do with the stock ones? Just delete them? I also just downloaded Hakari's Rocketdyne F-1 engine and now I have two of those.

I also would like to know where I can get a singular Rocketdyne J-2 engine so I can complete my Apollo 11 replica. If none exist, I would suggest converting the current stock F-1 into a J-2.

Edited August 18, 2014 by jandcando

[Woopert]

FinnishGameBox: the real Earth (it's not Kerbin anymore with Real Solar System ) is much bigger and thus requires more Delta-v to reach orbit. This is not as hard as it seems, though; the modifications from Realism Overhaul give the engines the proper thrust (which may be more or less than the stock KSP engines), efficiency (usually much higher than stock KSP engines), mass, and size as their real life counterparts (or at least, the engines that look like them). Good luck!

jandcando: check out the FASA pack, it has what you're looking for. It also has F-1, RL10, Apollo SM engine, LEM engines, and many others (like Titan SRB's, Titan II GLV engines, Redstone and Atlas engines, etc.)

Edited August 18, 2014 by Woopert

[jandcando]

FinnishGameBox: the real Earth (it's not Kerbin anymore with Real Solar System ) is much bigger and thus requires more Delta-v to reach orbit. This is not as hard as it seems, though; the modifications from Realism Overhaul give the engines the proper thrust (which may be more or less than the stock KSP engines), efficiency (usually much higher than stock KSP engines), mass, and size as their real life counterparts (or at least, the engines that look like them). Good luck!

jandcando: check out the FASA pack, it has what you're looking for. It also has F-1, RL10, Apollo SM engine, LEM engines, and many others (like Titan SRB's, Titan II GLV engines, Redstone and Atlas engines, etc.)

FASA isn't on the list of supported mods list yet. But this is in alpha, so I should probably lower my expectations for its content...

[Woopert]

FASA isn't on the list of supported mods list yet. But this is in alpha, so I should probably lower my expectations for its content...

FASA is supported but it's a WIP still. The J-2 has already received the Realism Overhaul modifications and will most likely work; RedAV8R just hasn't set any guarantees as it still needs to be tweaked a bit.

NovaPunch 2 also has a J-2 but is WIP as well.

[jandcando]

FASA is supported but it's a WIP still. The J-2 has already received the Realism Overhaul modifications and will most likely work; RedAV8R just hasn't set any guarantees as it still needs to be tweaked a bit.

NovaPunch 2 also has a J-2 but is WIP as well.

Ok I'll give it a try. I could also really use FASA's launch clamps for my Saturn V!

EDIT

It would seem FASA crashes the game at the moment.

Edited August 18, 2014 by jandcando

[JMac]

I don't have any electronics reference books on it anymore. I put all those in storage about 20 years ago. I'm just remembering from my old HAM days. Some of the basic things are a little hard to forget. I think you have the antennas feel pretty good, but the dipole, in my mind is set a bit weak. And whips wouldn't catch much air to break them off but will burn off real fast in a re-entry type situation.

I'd doubt the game engine is going to allow you to mimic real antennas and radio propagation much. Nor simulate ionosphere reflection for lower frequencies. Basically, a whip antenna for space travel, let's assume you want a full wave antenna (highest frequency possible for a given length antenna), and based on the appearing length of the whip, I'd say you are at about 90MHz. Well into the FM band of common radio. So you wouldn't have ionosphere bounce and reflection problems at that frequency. To receive any good signal from say the Moon's distance, you'd need a good "Moon Raker" antenna (one with many direction focusing elements, sort of like a large TV antenna but with vertical and horizontal elements). You'd need about 500 to 1000 watts for HAM operator type transmissions or maybe about 100 watts for NASA and super sensitive and tuned equipment. That is if you using a 90MHz transmission for the long whip. Higher frequencies (the kind reflectors and dishes use) can use way less power because the energy is focused more. But in the game (RT mod), you have more power being used for bigger dishes and to get further. This is common misconception about radio. To transmit, you need power but it can come from a small antenna. Even the smallest dish can transmit across the solar system given enough power. Probably about 200 watts at 10Ghz. But to receive from long distances, you do need large dishes. The large reflector is like a large magnifying lense for radio waves. You have to gather more of that energy to focus it onto a small little wire inside the feed horn. The bigger the dish, the more energy you collect (provided it's shaped right).

To get more immersive on RT, we need movable and tracking antennas. I know, that's probably not an easy thing to do. But it's something that would bring out the coolness of RT. And the dishes, should have at least point in the direction of where you want to communicate.

I know that is the maker of RemoteTech to do most of that. But as far as RO is concerned, If it were up to me, I'd just make the dipole go about 4 million meters and make the dipole and the whips stick a little better to their mounting, but weaken the heat factor perhaps. (I have not tried a re-entry on any of these yet, so I don't know if they burn up too quick or not at all)

Your numbers are (essentially) correct, but actually high. Voyager, at 15 billion km (15Tm) uses what NASA generally refers to as a 20w transmitter and the highest number I can find is 23w with a 3.7m dish to the 34m DSN on Earth. Even the early Russian space probes topped out at about 100w radios, but they tended to have a radio for every system.

Remote Tech is designed to add challenge and complexity to a game, and does a good job at that, but it doesn't remotely model real life to the point that I've considered removing it from my RO install a few times. Some of that is because of RT and some of that is because of KSP. The entire satellite network to use deep space probes is... well... inherently flawed, but on the other hand there's no other reason to launch satellites so I kind of like it. (Earth should effectively have unlimited range antennas and range should only be determined by the antenna on the spacecraft and there should be a different calculation of Earth - Spacecraft and Spacecraft - Spacecraft because Earth has bigger antennas and better computers and thousands of watts to throw at transmissions).

As far as targeting dishes, Kerbal has no way to, say, send a low powered signal to go to 3-axis stabilization (and has no idea of any other kind of stabilization) and also no way to plot that stabilization in regard to point in space (ie point at Earth). RO lets you just say that a dish is targeted at a location. I'm okay with that workaround.

My personal feelings about RT: I like that it forces you to think about communications, I just think it forces you to think about them in a way that is nearly incompatible with RO's mindset of not just making a more realistic KSP but we seem to be headed almost toward making a real space sim. RT implements them in a gamey way, and the one concept that it implements that more follows reality is the signal delay, but there is no way to really build an entire mission in current tools (kOS comes close, but runs into both its own issues and KSP issues). Ideally we would want an RO specific communication plugin and I am not even remotely volunteering to write it with my current workload. It's a little bit like requiring Kethane to produce fuel for your rocket because fueling rockets at the start was actually often hard, you could be modeling that exotic fuel is hard but you'd be modeling it in a gamey way.

Radio engineering aside: I can orbit pretty much anything with a dipole using a [steep] loft trajectory and have actually never made a manned flight in RO because I'm uninterested at this time. You either have something not configured per RO (such as didn't get the RT settings config that changes distances and puts earth stations at launch points) or you aren't making a steep enough ascent to stay in line of sight of your launch facility. Steep ascents were pretty much the name of the game in early rocket testing to deal with that and then came downrange radio stations. AIES also has an antenna that I'm pretty much addicted to for near Earth flights that has an always active and an extendable mode. The RO specific RT settings also allow more antennas is better so you can always just, very realistically (no offense, Red/NK, I did read your commentary rationalizing it as more equipment, bigger antennas, etc but Omni.... truly omni doesn't actually matter about antenna size and RT (yes another niggle about RT) treats antennas as truly omni) add more antennas to get more range.

[Woopert]

It would seem FASA crashes the game at the moment.

You're probably out of memory! Try this: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/59005-0-24-Release-3-3-1-Active-Texture-Management-Save-RAM-without-reduction-packs!

[Bothersome]

JMac, That's some good information you posted there about the radio equipment. I think you know a little more about than me.

I'm getting remote crafts to orbit just fine now, I've got enough low orbit sats to allow me a connection on the (what I call WIFI) omni-directionals. I didn't know adding more omni antennas would help on the range. I guess RT is using the idea of a broadband access point that has multiple antennas has better range. That would work for a few maybe, but adding more omni antennas would give diminishing returns at some point. Or at least it should.

I think my system is working correctly, It's just that the dipole was a bit short on range when the short whip could do 4M, you'd think the dipole could do at least the same.

Oh and two other problems I've found...

1. The whip and the extendable round antenna fall off a parked car when switching craft. It does this when parked on the runway or on the grass someplace. I can't keep those antennas attached. I'm using the car as a relay point on the ground. I've put landing legs on it and have it now sitting on the legs instead of the wheels hoping that, that will prevent the jolt from knocking off the antennas.

2. The RD-856 engine says it has infinite restart. Yet I can only get 1 ignition out of it. Bug?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Bothersome

[jandcando]

You're probably out of memory! Try this: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/59005-0-24-Release-3-3-1-Active-Texture-Management-Save-RAM-without-reduction-packs!

No, I already have a texture management mod installed, and I checked the crash report when it happened and the cause of the crash was not memory related.

[RedAV8R]

@Bothersome: #1, I'll take a look at strength here in a bit, #2, I can't replicate just 1 ignition...perhaps you are loosing fuel stability and need a ullage maneuver.

@Jmac and Bothersome: Thank you guys for your input! We'll see what we can do. I agree RT is a bit 'gamey' at this point, BUT it is also WAY better than simply being able to lob satellite after satellite into the air, do maneuvers, and enjoy simultaneous actions thanks to some signal delay. I will say we do have plans for better implimentation, but it's a ways off at this point, more pressing concerns at the moment.

@Woopert: Looking forward to the SLS adapter, I had mentioned a think to him at one point, but then got caught up in updates and such, THANK YOU for pressing ahead. Would you at least mind dropping me a PM and a link to the work, I'd appreciate it!

@jandcando: Without a log we can't figure out WHY FASA crashes what you've got and therefore can't fix it, I've got a release here soon of an update to RO that should fix a few things for sure.

Edited August 19, 2014 by RedAV8R

[HoneyFox]

Thank you HoneyFox! BTW grab the latest git and all but the Aerojet 73F SRB has a thrust curve on it now. Since all efforts, short of contacting ESA, has failed in providing a thrust curve the EAP thrust profile is a bit of a WAG, but fuel consumption, burn time, and max and average thrust all match real world figures, so while it may not be real, it's better than nothing.

Here you go, but the confidence is not VERY HIGH.

http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:527191/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Check Appendix A Page 116 (on the paper) or 132 (in-browser viewer), there is a thrust profile of EAP.

[jandcando]

Just a question, are FASA's Saturn IB/V - APS Flight Packs supposed to need ullage? Because I thought they were ullage motors on their own.

[RedAV8R]

Just a question, are FASA's Saturn IB/V - APS Flight Packs supposed to need ullage? Because I thought they were ullage motors on their own.

No, they aren't, they are pressure fed from their own integrated tanks...I see though the 'PressureFed' option got turned to false...incorrectly in the configs. If you want to get serious though, there were also 2 solid motors used as well for ullage for the first start.

[RedAV8R]

Here you go, but the confidence is not VERY HIGH.

http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:527191/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Check Appendix A Page 116 (on the paper) or 132 (in-browser viewer), there is a thrust profile of EAP.

You are an angel! My confidence is a bit higher than yours considering 1, it's a thesis, you'd have to be a moron to use bad data (though there are plenty out there), and 2, combined with 1, the supervisor works with EADS Astrium...the maker of the darn thing (or at least a big partner) you'd be an even bigger moron to use bad data when your supervisor works in the place who makes the thing.

NOW...anything on the Aerojet 73F:P

[Guest]

That's great! With that data, you could make a realism pack for Yogui's ESA pack. Both Vega and Ariane 5 are listed there, and Diamant was a liquid rocket (only the final stage was solid, and thrust curves are simple on those). I'd do it (already tried, once), but I won't have time for KSP until late september.