[0.25] Realism Overhaul w/ RedAV8R [Terminated]

[NathanKell]

Lilienthal: Huh! Neat!

Gustav's a pretty cool guy, yeah. In fact he features in the background of RftS (Which I will eventually get back to...eventually.) I'm assuming that he and Hugo Junkers got on great (goodness knows they shared interests both technologically and politically).

Re: your TACLS issue, it sounds like you have regular TACLS, not TACLS 0.9 pre#4. You have to use the pre-release, not the version from the OP. Get it here.

[Lilienthal]

Re: your TACLS issue, it sounds like you have regular TACLS, not TACLS 0.9 pre#4. You have to use the pre-release, not the version from the OP. Get it here.

D'oh. Pretty embarrassing: I got the wrong version of TAC LS... 0.8... Thanks Nathan & RedAV8R!

Lilienthal: Huh! Neat!

Gustav's a pretty cool guy, yeah. In fact he features in the background of RftS (Which I will eventually get back to...eventually.) I'm assuming that he and Hugo Junkers got on great (goodness knows they shared interests both technologically and politically).

Interesting. Junkers got Problems with the Nazis. Nice guy. (Hey SQUAD, that's not a political opionion, that's common sense . ) Grandpa used to fly the Ju52/3m - now I like that plane even better!

[frencrs]

For anyone who loves Universal Storage's parts as much as I do simply add:

@rescaleFactor = 1.52

To the parts in your RO_UniversalStorage.cfg file to scale them up to the 4m size of the mk1-2 pod.

[chicknblender]

Hey Nathan, I have become obsessed with RO since we last talked. I am recurrently impressed with the high quality of of this mod. I just wanted to thank you, RedAV8R, and the authors of the various other mods involved for such an amazing product. KSP is new again! (Also, I can put off installing Orbiter for awhile longer. )

My biggest complaint, and it's a minor one, is that I have trouble getting MechJeb to perform attitude adjustments and burns correctly. Even the listed TWR is not always correct. I know that's really R4m0n's project, but I was curious if any of you had any comments on this. (I will admit that I have not read all 111 pages to see if this has been addressed before.)

[NathanKell]

Woo, new converts!

The one time MJ's thrust calculation should be off is if you're in atmosphere and you're looking at the "TWR" in the Delta V stats panel. Click All Stats and you'll get a SLT column (Sea Level TWR). This is because RealFuels corrects an issue in KSP where fuel flow changes based on Isp to keep thrust constant (which is weird; does the turbopump somehow pump harder at sea level?) to real life, where Isp determines thrust and fuel flow is constant.

Not sure why MJ is failing to do attitude adjustment and burns though--although MJ still doesn't know the stock gimbal supports roll, so there's that. (Sarbian is fixing, but on vacation right now).

[Bothersome]

I might can give you something to chew on about using MechJeb to launch and guide rockets to the moon.

When you want to launch a rocket to the moon, you want to do it at certain times that will help with the alignments and timings.

When I launch "into plane of target" (you have to set the target first, let's use the moon as an example), it is best done when a launch sight is crossing the plane of the target and that plane is lined up for flying due east (90 degrees). For example, to go to the moon, you should launch from Cape Canaveral, and when it is aligned with the moon's plane (which is only once per day). You will also only have an optimal timing window of once per moon revolution which I think is every 28 days.

MechJeb, when set to launch into plane of target, holds off launching and sets a timer countdown. But the launch happens when it is exactly aligned. I've noticed that the planes will be off a by a few degrees because MJ is not taking into account the time the rocket needs to get into space. The usual cost is about 50 dV about half way to the moon for a re-alignment. If you do a manual launch, I think a 2 or 3 minute "ahead of schedule" launch might help with the alignment issue.

If you intend to circularize your orbit before burning off to the moon, then the optimal timing thing is mute. On my particular rocket I'm tweaking now, it is designed to go to the moon "in one shot". I won't have a circularizing burn after getting to orbit. It will continue burning until the apoapsis is at the moon's intercept. This is why my timing needs to be optimal.

[HoneyFox]

does the turbopump somehow pump harder at sea level?

I even wonder if, for gas generator cycled engines, the pump can work harder when in vacuum because the ambient pressure is lower and thus the hot gas generated by GG can spin the pump faster.

[Lilienthal]

So, about that kOS script I wanted to make... I found what looks like a good source for creating something like it: https://globaljournals.org/GJSFR_Volume12/6-Computational-Algorithm-for-Gravity.pdf

...but I'm only in Algebra I and starting Geometry I in 2 weeks, so this stuff is very out of my depth. I tried interpreting it, but I'm guessing that there are concepts that I don't know about yet, so I'll wait until later. If someone else wants to give it a shot, I hope that the link I found is useful to you!

pretty bad paper. Simple Euler-Forward with no consideration of stability or error. Might work though.

[TeeGee]

I would first like to than RedAv for fixing the FASA mod in the latest RO update, AWESOME job my friend. Truly appreciate all your hard work!

Secondly, I would like to recommend a few mods for the RO list. 1) Audio muffler 2) RCS sound fx. Now RCS sound fx doesn't seem to be working with RO for some reason, Ill ask why in that thread BUT audio muffler is a fantastic immersion mod that truly makes this experience more engaging. Check them out! (I know muffling audio is not realistic BUT imagine you are IN the spacecraft when you hear those sounds!)

Also, the atmospheric decay mod (im not sure what it is called) is another mod that would be a great addition to this list for maximum realism.

[Ippo]

Hello, I would like to suggest a new mod for the overhaul: Ambient Light Shifter. It is NOT the one to adjust the ambient lighting at will made by blizzy for youtubers, it's an extract from Alternis Kerbol that basically kills the ambient lighting making the space REALLY dark.

As far as I know it doesn't have a forum thread, but it can be found on kerbalstuff complete with the source code.

With this mod, the dark side of the Moon isn't just dark: it is BLACK, as it should be.

[TeeGee]

Hello, I would like to suggest a new mod for the overhaul: Ambient Light Shifter. It is NOT the one to adjust the ambient lighting at will made by blizzy for youtubers, it's an extract from Alternis Kerbol that basically kills the ambient lighting making the space REALLY dark.

As far as I know it doesn't have a forum thread, but it can be found on kerbalstuff complete with the source code.

With this mod, the dark side of the Moon isn't just dark: it is BLACK, as it should be.

Doesn't distant object enhancement do something similar to this as well?

[chicknblender]

The one time MJ's thrust calculation should be off is if you're in atmosphere and you're looking at the "TWR" in the Delta V stats panel. Click All Stats and you'll get a SLT column (Sea Level TWR). This is because RealFuels corrects an issue in KSP where fuel flow changes based on Isp to keep thrust constant (which is weird; does the turbopump somehow pump harder at sea level?) to real life, where Isp determines thrust and fuel flow is constant.

Easy fix! Thanks.

Not sure why MJ is failing to do attitude adjustment and burns though--although MJ still doesn't know the stock gimbal supports roll, so there's that. (Sarbian is fixing, but on vacation right now).

It's more like MJ freaks out with the RCS. It kinda eventually gets the attitude right, but not before burning an absurd amount of hydrazine, and even then it doesn't hold very well. If it was an actual physical device, I would say that the the gain was set too high.

EDIT: Works OK with reaction wheels and RCS turned off. I guess I'll be adding back reaction wheels.

Edited August 24, 2014 by chicknblender

[RedAV8R]

@chickenblender: Ah yes, I know what you speak of. At least with MJ and burns. Turn RCS on and all sorts of problems, turn it off, rely on gimbaled engine and things work great... Obviously this isn't a fault of RO, but the way in which MJ handles itself. Unfortunate for sure. I do recommend you do not add reaction wheels for realism sake. Couple of notes. Ensure you don't have too much RCS. IRL, maneuvering with RCS is done with as few thrusters as possible, which is NOT the way RCS is handled in KSP. KSP will fire both + and - sets of engines, while in real life, just one or the other does. If 4 quads are present, IRL a roll maneuver would only use 2, KSP uses 4. So I recommend trying to keep thruster power at least half of what it would be otherwise, and remember the big Apollo CSM only had 4 quad pods of only 100lb per engine. A much smaller satellite usually only has 1-5lb engines. Or smaller.

[chicknblender]

Thanks for the quick reply, good explanation, and the wonderful mod! I do think that I have been adding excessive RCS -- it's just too easy to add the quad thrusters with quad symmetry and that's what vanilla taught me to do.

A question, though: do the reaction wheels have realistic power and mass? Because if they do, they still have a huge advantage over RCS since they consume no fuel. So why aren't they used more? Complexity/reliability? Cost?

EDIT: First soft landing on the Moon! It's amazing how this mod resets all those old milestones.

Edited August 24, 2014 by chicknblender

[RedAV8R]

Very few manned craft have reaction wheels. A lot of satellites, especially those who require a specific altitude maintained precisely have small gyros. Power/mass of them, not really, just nuked compared to stock, haven't gotten much good info on them besides that for Agena, and even then, pretty tough to duplicate with KSP modeling of it.

[stanleywinford]

I just installed RO and all required mods, and noticed that a few of the engines require pressurized fuel tanks. However, I can't find pressurized fuel tanks anywhere. Is this expected behavior, or did I mess up the installation? (If I did mess it up, I'll reinstall everything and report back on what happened.) Thanks in advance!

[Ippo]

Doesn't distant object enhancement do something similar to this as well?

No, not even close: when I say black, I really mean absolute black. No light source -> no light, period.

With this, landing on the dark side of the moon is absolutely impossible without lamps.

[Bothersome]

What about using radar? Could you land then?

[Lilienthal]

A question, though: do the reaction wheels have realistic power and mass? Because if they do, they still have a huge advantage over RCS since they consume no fuel. So why aren't they used more? Complexity/reliability? Cost?

My understanding would be that reaction wheels can only add a certain amount of torque in one direction, whereas RCS is only limited by the amount of fuel. To explain: If your craft has a tendency to rotate to the left, it can be compensated by the reaction wheels until they reach their maximum velocity, then no further torque in that direction is possible. Whereas in KSP you can add infinite amount of torque using rection wheels, which irl would violate the conservation of angular momentum.

BTW: adding this constraint would be a great feat for realism modding.

[chicknblender]

I just installed RO and all required mods, and noticed that a few of the engines require pressurized fuel tanks. However, I can't find pressurized fuel tanks anywhere. Is this expected behavior, or did I mess up the installation? (If I did mess it up, I'll reinstall everything and report back on what happened.) Thanks in advance!

I might be the blind trying to lead the blind here, but I solved this problem by using procedural tanks and selecting the "service module" tank type. It can also be done with the stock RCS tanks. Just learning how to get the engines to fire has a pretty steep learning curve with this mod.

[RedAV8R]

I just installed RO and all required mods, and noticed that a few of the engines require pressurized fuel tanks. However, I can't find pressurized fuel tanks anywhere. Is this expected behavior, or did I mess up the installation? (If I did mess it up, I'll reinstall everything and report back on what happened.) Thanks in advance!

I might be the blind trying to lead the blind here, but I solved this problem by using procedural tanks and selecting the "service module" tank type. It can also be done with the stock RCS tanks. Just learning how to get the engines to fire has a pretty steep learning curve with this mod.

Nope you are right. If you are building your own launch vehicle using a pressurized engine, you'll have to use Procedural Tanks. Real replica rockets using their associated real engines will be pressurized as required.

[chicknblender]

NathanKell and RedAV8R: You know what would be awesome? Requiring Hullcam and then eliminating 3rd-person camera views except on EVA. Just a thought to add even more to the realism.

[R0cketC0der]

NathanKell and RedAV8R: You know what would be awesome? Requiring Hullcam and then eliminating 3rd-person camera views except on EVA. Just a thought to add even more to the realism.

I just pretend the third person view would be a simulation. Also using only hullcams there will often be parts which you can't right-click on.

[Hattivat]

NathanKell and RedAV8R: You know what would be awesome? Requiring Hullcam and then eliminating 3rd-person camera views except on EVA. Just a thought to add even more to the realism.

I think first EVAs would need to be made more limited and/or resource intensive, like they are in real life, otherwise the ease with which kerbonauts can go on EVAs and use their jetpacks negates most of the added challenge from having no 3rd person camera.

[NathanKell]

Ippo: I've been meaning to add that light changing to RSS for a while (based on Alternis's code; I have permission). I'll, uh, try to remember to do that soon.

Saturation of reaction wheels...hmm, possible to implement. Regarding their stats, I have to look into exactly what units the module uses. I did find *some* stats on reaction wheels / CMGs so they're not baseless, although they're probably still more effective than they should be by an order of magnitude or two.