Mods which should be stock?

[sal_vager]

Mergenated threads

[AlamoVampire]

Not one of those except procedural fairings should or will be stock. Ever.

I could be wrong but do I sense a potent dislike for those awesome mods? We need a potent device like mechjeb period. We need more parts than what is stock. Period. We need a good docking aid, both for realism sake and youtube vids. Period. Proc fairings is obvious. The mods i listed in my post are things this game needs in order to be more fleshed out. W/out them we are driving with square tires and flying w/out wings. But thats my opinion.

[Dunbaratu]

Okay my 2 cents. MechJeb should be stock. It provides an autopilot which is a must, it also supplies vital information on most vehicle aspects. Now I already hear you ppl screaming KER does the latter. But KER cant fly MechJeb can, 2 mods in 1, a win. KOS is fine if you can code but a lot of ppl cant so KOS is no good imho.

Yeah, let's just ruin the fun of those people who do like kOS by putting another autopilot in its way as the stock standard.

The reason an autopilot shouldn't be stock isn't because autopilots are unrealistic, but because they should be a choice. Not just a choice about whether or not to have one, but more importantly, a choice about WHICH ONE to have - one somebody else made for you or one you make yourself.

Most of these "these mods should be stock" threads are just a masked way of having an "everyone should play my way" argument.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Steven Mading

[rabidninjawombat]

There lots of mods that would be great in the Stock game, At the top of my list though would probably be Infernal Robotics, Theres just so much you can do when you can fold, move and rotate your payload, That and stock fairings of course, so you can fit your folded payload under it

[AlamoVampire]

Yeah, let's just ruin the fun of those people who do like kOS by putting another autopilot in its way as the stock standard.

The reason an autopilot shouldn't be stock isn't because autopilots are unrealistic, but because they should be a choice. Not just a choice about whether or not to have one, but more importantly, a choice about WHICH ONE to have - one somebody else made for you or one you make yourself.

Most of these "these mods should be stock" threads are just a masked way of having an "everyone should play my way" argument.

Autopilot is unrealistic? I have not laughed hard enough to geyser milk from my nose in decades thanks!!! SO, NASA and its kin fly missions by hand all the time? Theres a person working the helm on each satellite, each probe, everything? Pilots fly airliners by hand take off to landing, military spy drones all by hand 24 hours a day 365 days a year? No. Theres this thing called autopilot, its very real and 100% reasonable to want in game.

And btw forcing non programmers to learn to program is just wrong. Mechjeb is simpler and more user friendly. Which makes mechjeb the best bet. But as ive said twice now 3 times: MY OPINION. You can agree or not i rather dont care but, NEVER assume i am veiling my words. You play your way, i will mine. My posts state what I THINK fleshes this game out. Enough said.

[Dunbaratu]

Autopilot is unrealistic? I have not laughed hard enough to geyser milk from my nose in decades thanks!!!

I said it isn't because of that. IS NOT. Stop engaging in a strawman fallacy and trying to convince yourself I said the exact opposite of what I said, no matter how much mirth that strawman fallacy may bring you. And as to it just being an opinion of the way you play and everyone can just play their own way, my point which still stands is that the entire thread is ABOUT which mods should no longer be a choice but instead should always be present in everyone's game.

There is an enormous difference between arguing why you prefer one autopilot over another for your own play, which is what you claim you were doing, versus arguing that it should be in the stock game so everyone should be required to have it installed too, which is what you were actually doing because of what the thread is about.

And that's why there's always these arguments in threads about what should be stock. Because people *think* they're just saying "this is the way I like to play" when what they're *actually* saying is "this is the way the game should play for everybody."

When arguing for what should be in stock, you *do* need to take into account whether or not the mod makes things mandatory which previously weren't, so you have to be very careful about what you suggest. I'm getting started with RemoteTech 2 and I like it, but I'd never recommend that it has to be in stock because that dictates people's play style and not everyone will like it.

Whereas something like Kerbal Alarm Clock doesn't really dictate play style at all, and can be added without stepping on anyone's toes.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Steven Mading

[AlamoVampire]

Steven Mading I am getting tired of going in circles with you.

1. We need autopilot stock. We need vital readouts on our spacecrafts flight data and DV/TWR among other data STOCK. Kerbeal Engineer Redux does half, and not everyone can code so Kerbal OS is a lesser choice because of that. MechJeb is the best bet because it does Autopilot AND gives relevant and vital data that again SHOULD be stock.

1.a MechJeb if stock would be as it is now. A PART YOU CAN ELECT TO USE. Example: I do not like the Rapier Engine so I never use it. Steve YOU obviously dislike MechJeb, so if it were STOCK you could elect to NOT USE it.

2. Docking Camera speaks for itself.

3. NovaPunch adds parts and in multiple sizes. When did THAT become a BAD thing?

4. Procedural Fairings like the camera speaks for itself.

[regex]

1. We need autopilot stock.

No we don't. MechJeb is a good mod for those who want it, but autopilot is not needed in the stock game; it goes against the spirit of over-eager Kerbals who shouldn't even be told there's an SAS unit on their ship. No Kerbal would let a machine pilot their ship while they could do it themselves.

[John FX]

Err, kOS isn't dead... but I don't think it should be a part of the stock game, either.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68089-0-23-5-kOS-Scriptable-Autopilot-System-v0-12-1-2014-5-18

Why not? It would make no difference at all to people who didn`t use it, the game would play EXACTLY as it does now.

The only difference is you could have the option to write small scripts to do things in response to certain situations like automatically opening your chutes if you are descending, on kerbin, lower than 5 Km and your craft weighs less than 8 tons and nowhere else.

or large scripts that completely automated a mission.

I`d like to see a CPU part which could have some predesigned scripts to replicate some mechjeb features and a readout of pertinent information on the flight screen like Dv, apo, peri, time to each.

also :

Procedural fairings, tanks and wings

KAC

KAS

KER

FAR

RPM

scansat

parts of BTSM (difficulty settings generally also) like the need to plan for electric use

DRE

Antenna ranges to make larger heavier antenna useful

EVE

realchutes

some form of telemetry with the ability to graph data. G-force, dynamic pressure, temp etc

editor extensions

a better science monitor with a live display of available science opportunities

RCS build aid

EDIT : As far as `style of play` or `this is kerbal, that is not`

The only way forward is optional. If the autopilot is a part then you can choose to use it or not. There could also be a scriptable CPU part for those that would like that. All optional, the game would be exactly the same as now if you did not fit either part. One works like MJ, one like KOS...

Everyone plays how they like and so everyone not trying to dictate a playing style to others would be happy.

The way to see if someone is trying to do that is if they would not be happy with an optional, part based system that causes no changes to someone not using the feature.

Edited July 6, 2014 by John FX

[Dunbaratu]

Steven Mading I am getting tired of going in circles with you.

The rest of your post proves you are not telling the truth about this. If you meant it you could just choose not to "correct" my statements (which actually don't need correcting) and walk away.

1. We need autopilot stock.

A claim that supports what I said about what you are doing - dictating play for others.

YOU obviously dislike MechJeb, so if it were STOCK you could elect to NOT USE it.

You wouldn't be able to elect to unload it so it doesn't waste space in your install, and instead use kOS. And I heard the exact same argument from Microsoft back when they killed the superior Netscape by bundling the inferior Internet Explorer and splicing it into the OS in an un-removable way.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Steven Mading

[Dunbaratu]

Why not? It would make no difference at all to people who didn`t use it, the game would play EXACTLY as it does now.

I'm one of the devs for kOS and even I wouldn't even advocate for making it stock, for the reason that I want to compete with the other choices for autopilot based on merits not based on cozy bundling with the base game - a strong marketing force that can override everything else about choosing a solution.

[John FX]

I'm one of the devs for kOS and even I wouldn't even advocate for making it stock, for the reason that I want to compete with the other choices for autopilot based on merits not based on cozy bundling with the base game - a strong marketing force that can override everything else about choosing a solution.

So keep the scriptable autopilot as a mod if you really want and have a stock autopilot part but my post still stands however you say you want the scriptable part (or not), especially the part about gameplay remaining the same if you chose to not use it and that showing a desire for dictating to others.

Just accept that a part that changes nothing for those that don`t use it is unreasonable to object to.

It`s not an either/or case. You CAN have both you know. A stock implementation of some mechjeb features as a part does not preclude anything you are doing with KOS or anything anyone else is doing with scripting missions which seems to be what you are implying.

you can always delete the part from your gamedata folder if it offends you that much and want to save that bit of memory.

I assumed for the sake of the discussion 64 bit was implemented and memory would not be an issue.

So, if it does not stop you from using the scripting language of your choice and writing your own autopilot, is optional and fully removable, and can be made so it does not affect the gameplay, memory usage or clock cycles of someone not using it, what is your possible remaining objection except you don`t want other people to use it?

Would it be OK if it were implemented like that?

EDIT : Wait, is your objection that less people would be interested in your mod and a stock autopilot would dilute your brand and reduce your marketshare? Are you trying to put pressure on here for your own personal gain in some way?

Edited July 6, 2014 by John FX

[Red Iron Crown]

Also do not, I repeat DO NOT say "I want Mechjeb in KSP". Please. Please?

Let's keep autopilot out of this, as the OP asked and the mods are likely to enforce. Maybe some form of autopilot will make it into KSP someday, maybe it won't; for now I think it's enough that there are good mods to choose from if a player wants that functionality.

* * *

Is it wrong to suggest that mods supporting mods be implemented in stock? Things like Toolbar and ModuleManager add functionality to or make possible many mods, if modders were able to depend on them being there with a known version and correct installation then creating mods and troubleshooting their installation would get easier. Not really gameplay altering additions, but making KSP's mod support more robust and capable.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Red Iron Crown
Fixed a typo.

[Dunbaratu]

Would it be OK if it were implemented like that?

Sure, if that could happen, but I'd put the probability of that at about 1%. Implementing both in stock is unlikely. What is more likely is implementing just one in stock and not the other, which is the situation I don't want. I'd rather leave the choice open than bias one choice over the other through bundling.

Bundling kills the competition. Anyone who thinks it doesn't is unaware of the history of computing.

[John FX]

Is it wrong to suggest that mods supporting mods be implemented in stock? Things like Toolbar and ModuleManager add functionality to or make possible many mods, if modders were able to depend on them being there with a known version and correct installation then creating mods and troubleshooting their installation would get easier. Not really gameplay altering additions, but making KSP's mod support more robust and capable.

I can`t believe I missed them. They work so well I had forgotten they were even mods.

An implementation of Toolbar of course should be stock and modulemanager. Toolbar could be expanded to open info displays and other screens, it would be customisable as it is now but with some preset options as stock. Dv readout, orbit info etc could be set as buttons to open and close the displays (or not shown at all)

I`d like that. You could have different info displays for the VAB, SPH and flight. you could set it to only display Dv, TWR etc in the VAB or in flight as well if you wanted.

[Helix935]

NavHud

Enhanced Navball

KAS

FirstPersonEVA

Rasterprop

every stockalike mod

[AlamoVampire]

No we don't. MechJeb is a good mod for those who want it, but autopilot is not needed in the stock game; it goes against the spirit of over-eager Kerbals who shouldn't even be told there's an SAS unit on their ship. No Kerbal would let a machine pilot their ship while they could do it themselves.

Autopilot is a natural evolution of the SAS system. SAS became ASAS and by logic could EASILY become Autopilot. So no its not against their nature but in harmony with it.

[regex]

Autopilot is a natural evolution of the SAS system. SAS became ASAS and by logic could EASILY become Autopilot. So no its not against their nature but in harmony with it.

That's literally a line from the part fluff, that you shouldn't tell Kerbals that's there's an SAS on the ship. Ain't no way a Kerbal would let a machine fly for them if they know about it.

Anyway, autopilots really don't belong in the game.

[AlamoVampire]

That's literally a line from the part fluff, that you shouldn't tell Kerbals that's there's an SAS on the ship. Ain't no way a Kerbal would let a machine fly for them if they know about it.

Anyway, autopilots really don't belong in the game.

I think they are useful and guess what? That works for me. I feel they do belong. And its not fluff to say they are an extension. It is highly reasonable to see it as such.

[Jouni]

The reason an autopilot shouldn't be stock isn't because autopilots are unrealistic, but because they should be a choice. Not just a choice about whether or not to have one, but more importantly, a choice about WHICH ONE to have - one somebody else made for you or one you make yourself.

By that reasoning, all content should be removed from the stock game. It's a logical position, but it doesn't make for a good game.

[MoparGamer]

Just my opinion on the Mechjeb/kOS argument. Why not both? Translate Mechjeb into default type scripts, and allow for custom scripts to be loaded in and used. It would allow us to run the general functions from Mechjeb; without punishing the hard working script writers and their awesomely complex functions.

Personally, the mods I want to see added in are KAS, KAC, KER, Docking alignment indicator, Interstellar(Although it has game changing features, it adds a fun bit of complexity), and more Procedural/stretchy basic parts. I'm not a fan of things like FAR or Deadly Re-entry as the challenge they've introduced to the game is annoying to me. (I'm no Jeb, just a casual KSP player)

Edit: I have never used kOS.

Edited July 6, 2014 by MoparGamer

[AlamoVampire]

I think if you are going to have a docking aid, Docking Alignment Indicator isnt your best bet.

vs the Romafer Lazor Docking Cam:

vs what NASA for example uses:

In all honesty, I think the Docking Camera by Romfarer is by far a better bet. It is more aesthetically pleasing, and more realistic looking. And for those of you who do "Real style missions" the Docking Cam is by far the better option, especially if you post that fun to Youtube.

[Dunbaratu]

By that reasoning, all content should be removed from the stock game.

That does not follow. There aren't two mutually exclusive competing ideas, both implemented, for how an alarm clock should work, for example. If there were, *then* arguing for including one in the stock game but not the other, like AlamoVampire did, would have the same problem.

For the people arguing for just including every competing autopilot mod so you can pick one over the other by which part you attach to the craft, sure that would be fine if it would happen. I don't have the same level of optimism that it would be done in that fair-minded egalitarian way, though.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Steven Mading

[MoparGamer]

For the people arguing for just including every competing autopilot mod so you can pick one over the other by which part you attach to the craft, sure that would be fine if it would happen. I don't have the same level of optimism that it would be done in that fair-minded egalitarian way, though.

I feel like this comment is pointed towards me, so just to clarify. I'm not saying add every autopilot mod into stock. I was saying that if an autopilot mod/feature were to be added; merge them, and take the best traits to create an ultimate autopilot for stock. (The basic functions of MechJeb, and the expandability of kOS)

@AlamoVampire

Either of the docking alignment mods would work for me.

[mythic_fci]

My $0.02. No arguments please, this is just my opinion

A limited version of KAS (Only EVA, no winches), Enhanced Navball, More parts from KSPX (The original modder's been hired by Squad if I recall), A modified version of NavyFish's Docking Alignment Indicator (replaces the navball when docking port is targeted), Kerbal Engineer (For D/V readouts and craft mass), and Procedural Fairings.

To throw in another 2 cents into a "conversation" going on around here, an autopilot shouldn't be stock as the game is meant to make you fly by hand, not have a computer automate the process. Yes, autopilots are real and usable in real life, but they aren't suitable for KSP in my opinion. By the way, even astronauts are trained to fly the mission by hand if required (ex. Computer failure).

In all honesty, I think the Docking Camera by Romfarer is by far a better bet. It is more aesthetically pleasing, and more realistic looking. And for those of you who do "Real style missions" the Docking Cam is by far the better option, especially if you post that fun to Youtube.

JUST MY OPINION: NavyFish's docking alignment indicator is more user-friendly in terms of how to use it to dock easier. Secondly, the second sentence there states "Those of you who do "Real style missions"". Not everyone does these, meaning that for the people who DO, it would be better for them to install a mod and add the function instead of ruin it for those who don't.

Edited July 6, 2014 by FCISuperGuy