It's in alpha, The fallback excuse

[Puddin]

Even if they took the game as it stands right now with 23.5 and called it complete and done. I would be happy with that. That would also mean that their accountability goes up as they are making a statement that the game is done and any they release later is fixing issues or adding content rather than just working on the game.

[sal_vager]

It's not done yet, it's still in development.

[KasperVld]

I paid for a product. A product that is not yet finished. Squad is finishing this game to adhere to the word they gave us when we purchased the game that it would be finished. In essence I paid for them to finish the game. That is an investment by every definition.

I'm going to have to stop you there, indeed you paid for a product but you paid for it as it was when you bought it. Nowhere does Squad give their word that it will be finished. In fact when you look at the terms of service you agree to when purchasing the game it says:

Please keep in mind:

• Squad is not under any obligation to release any updates, expansions or titles at any time. Each release may very well be the last one.
  
• Squad is under no obligation to implement any given set of features prior to the final release for KSP or any future title. All posted lists of planned features are unofficial and do not imply a promise by Squad to deliver anything listed in them.

(full terms of service available here.

This of course doesn't say or even imply that the game won't be finished, but my point here is merely that you did not buy a full game, nor did you 'invest' in one. You paid for KSP as it was at the time you bought it, and nothing else

[KerbinExplorer]

So reading around the forums I see one thing keep popping up constantly about bugs or issues. Everyone like to repeat that the game is still in it's alpha stage... Since 2011. Now I'm not here to bash the game at all and with 705 hours currently clocked in through steam I would say that I definitely got my moneys' worth out of the software. As with everyone here I have been eagerly awaiting the .24 patch and it got me thinking, "Why is this still alpha in alpha development?" The patches are getting fewer and father between just as with any other release of game after it has actually been released.

KSP has made the top 5 selling list on steam so obviously people think the software is done enough to pay for. So why keep the alpha stage going for so long? I'm thinking it is simply a convenient excuse. "Oh the aerodynamics are all messed up? All good it is in alpha and will get fixed eventually."

"The game lags when building stations? All good it is in alpha and will get fixed eventually."

"----Insert issue here--- All good it is in alpha and will get fixed eventually."

Now that being said I see nothing wrong with a game releasing early and many factors can play into this such as budget limits, Publisher pressure, administrative calls, ect. But the game at some point needs to actually make it out of its' early development phase and actually call it a finished product. We can only speculate as to how many copies have been sold of KSP but as of now and since 2011 the developers have completely skipped accountability in maintaining or finishing the software by simply adding the phrase "the game is in alpha stages". If someone has a legitimate complaint the primary thing that person is told is that the game isn't finished and that they will just have to wait.

What gets me mainly is that there is no timeline or contract with a purchase like this. It should work out like "I give X dollars and you give a finished product by x time". Think about it logically, Would you be happy with contractor that you hired for your roof if they kept saying 3 years after you paid them that "it is all good that it leaks as I'm still not done with it." After paying for the unfinished software the development team essentially becomes contractors finishing up on the software that you already purchased.

So given that I have already laid out cash for the said software then people frown on asking when it will be done or when the next patch will come out. After all that person is just asking how far along their investment is. If you hired someone to build a car for you would you not ask them at the very least occasionally when that car would be done? After all you already paid for it and you need to make sure your investment is going to pan out. A lot of people including myself look at this game as an investment especially with the marketing scheme they use as the game gets more expensive the closer it gets to being finished. I took a risk, bought a game early in it's development, and now I expect to be told how this risk is panning out.

It is issues like these that arise when you decide to release a game early.

I think you hit the nail on head and I have to fully agree.

[Puddin]

@sal_vager

lol just repeating what the devs say isn't getting anywhere. and you seem to be missing the point. You pay a tire center to put new tires on your car. Keep in mind you have already handed them the money. They tell you that you can drive your car around while they are getting it done but if it leaks then you will just have to wait for them to finish. Ok so you just wait for them to finish. 3 years later they still aren't finished, your tires still leak and you are not allowed to inquire about when it will actually get done. If you do ask when it would be finished you get scolded. Do you not see anything fishy here at all? Perhaps they did get it done and they are just telling you that it isn't done in case anything goes wrong they can just say "it wasn't finished yet"

[sal_vager]

Your analogy does not apply here, this is software development and software can remain in development even after "release" (look at all the Windows updates)

It still does not change that KSP is not finished yet, you have paid for a copy and that copy will be updated periodically as development continues, you have already stated that you are happy playing KSP, I say you'll still be happy as updates are released and add new features and content.

You can gripe over semantics regarding "alpha", that's fine, but you are not going to change the fact that KSP is still in development.

[Puddin]

@sal_vager

Here in the readme that was released with the last update

===================================================================================================

Disclaimer:

THIS SOFTWARE IS CONSIDERED TO BE IN ALPHA STATE, AND MAY CONTAIN BUGS. SQUAD AND SQUAD STAFF TAKE NO

RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DAMAGE OR LOSS OF DATA THAT MAY OCCUR AS A DIRECT OR INDIRECT RESULT OF USING

THIS SOFTWARE, AND CANNOT GUARANTEE ANY DEGREE OF PERFORMANCE OR STABILITY, OR EVEN THAT THE SOFTWARE

WILL BE USABLE AT ALL. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

(not that any of the above should happen anyway, but it's good to be on the safe side)

====================================================================================================

That is where the devs call it alpha themselves. If you continue to read that paragraph you see the accountability issues I'm talking about?

[Alshain]

@alshain

I would propose you re-read the very first paragraph in this post.

But obviously you don't feel that way, because you spend 3 more paragraphs explaining X dollars for X blah blah blah....

[sal_vager]

Okay thanks for finding that, the readme needs updating.

Buy you mention accountability issues, such as?

[Sandworm]

"Alpha" is used as an excuse to stop people complaining. But when software is under development, is not that the most important time for complaints. That is the only time where input might actually mean something. Once development is over, once KSP is "done", there will be no point in complaining about anything as everything will be locked down. So this is the time for screaming.

[Vanamonde]

If this phrase is an "excuse," as you say, what is it supposed to be an excuse for? How is it an excuse to say that a game which is still in development is incomplete? That's simply the fact of the situation.

But the game at some point needs to actually make it out of its' early development phase and actually call it a finished product.

The fact that the game has not been completed as quickly as you would like does not mean that it never will be. It's not done. Yet. New versions and content may not be coming as quickly as you would like, but that doesn't mean they aren't coming.

What gets me mainly is that there is no timeline or contract with a purchase like this.

In essence I paid for them to finish the game.

If you do not like that aspect of the purchase, the time to object would have been before you legally agreed to the purchase terms, but you were indeed told up front that these were the terms.

Squad is not under any obligation to release any updates, expansions or titles at any time. Each release may very well be the last one.

You are getting exactly what you were told you were buying: a work-in-progress with no announced completion date and no specified pace of development. If any of this is a surprise to you, you did not actually read those terms before agreeing to them.

Also, why does squad have a "testing team" for a "alpha release" for "alpha" version of a "alpha stage game"?

Because they are responsible software creators who are trying to limit the number of bugs players experience while playing with their product.

So this is the time for screaming.

There is never a good time for unproductive baseless ranting. There are, however, entire forum sub-sections devoted to reasonably stated bug reports and development requests.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Vanamonde

[J3ansley]

I don't really follow the house, car or tires analogy. In each case you list, the purchaser is typically not allowed to use the item at all. If Squad said, you can't download at all or this was a pre-purchase type deal then yes they would all apply. Since, I was able to immediately download and play I feel like i moved into my house and I can see what sheetrock needs to be finished and whatnot. Luckily, they allow me to go to Home Depot and pick up additions to how I want my house to be and I can change it as I see fit while they fine tune my plumbing and electrical. Plus, I bought my house for half off!

I am just trying to say I am having trouble finding validity in your complaints. Especially when you say you are happy with the product you currently have.

[sal_vager]

Complaining isn't terribly constructive though, what's gotten Squads attention most often are proof of concepts and ideas too good to not implement, one example would be multiplayer (now planned) or spaceplanes (thanks to Chads aerospace pack)

[Monger]

Kerbal Space Program uses what is known as a "waterfall" development model. In this model, every key stage of development has a "reality check" with the interested party/parties on how well the progress of the software meshes with the expectations and needs of said party/parties. Changes in development focus and scope occur based upon this feedback.

This is actually the definition of the OPPOSITE of the waterfall model.

Waterfall is defined by stages that - once they are completed - are never revisited again. These stages usually are (roughly): Design, implementation, test, release. So the design is never changed once that implementation begun.

Squad follows more of a an scrum process: test and develop at the same time, always hold close contact to your customer, and release every sprint once it is stable.

The main issue here is, that sprints should be short (a month), always stable and complete. Actually, the quality of KSPs releases are a lot better this year, but there are still a lot of technical issues.

Also, a lot of features were revisited multiple times, although the game is still far from complete, so a lot of time was wasted on features with questionable quality.

So, yeah, Squad made a lot of mistakes. Then again, there are a lot worse indie developers, and at least Squad has improved a lot in the last year.

[Tarophon]

Puddin, let go of the old/traditional way of thinking about game development and get with the times. KSP, Prison Architect and many other early access games follow a new format where you buy a game in active development, not knowing exactly when 1.0 will come out. The result is games like KSP with tremendous replay value after each new update, and as you've said we frankly have all got more than our money's worth of game already. As per your analogy; we've bought tires 3 years ago and we're driving happily with them for 3 years. The best thing is: instead of wearing down the tires get BETTER every few months!

I really don't understand your need for 'accountability', what game-breaking bugs are you afraid of? Aren't the devs constantly making improvements? Isn't KSP already a great game? What of companies like EA who take zero responsibility at "1.0"? What would the 1.0 add to your experience?

[Puddin]

Accountability of a game is exactly that. Once the game is done it is in that state that it will be judged as a final product. For it's flaws and highlights. Once it is done some gamers will be upset that features that wanted wasn't included. It is at this point the developers themselves will have their talent judged by other developers and publishers. Reviewers will tear into the game for it's flaws or will hail it for it's triumphs.

That isn't the only issue though. Say they have a piece of code in there that crashes everyone's systems or even just a good chunk of players systems. They would be responsible for fixing this lest they suffer an enormous backlash. This can be avoided though by simply saying that this isn't done yet and then they can fix it at their leisure rther than having it forced to the front of production.

Mods have become a massive pain as well as it seems like every other update breaks a bunch of them. Alot of the time I spent playing went up in smoke once I downloaded the new update for the game.

Squad is not under any obligation to release any updates, expansions or titles at any time. Each release may very well be the last one.

It is because of crap that this that the developers put in there themselves that make me think this game simply won't leave alpha stages so it can always be told that the game isn't finished yet when an issue arises.

[Kasuha]

The 'alpha phrase' is not an excuse. It's description of state of things.

There's a lot of things to be implemented, balanced, and bugfixed.

And there's only so many developers of this game.

They just can't do everything at once. They get to choose what to do between released and they're implementing, balancing, and bugfixing things in order they consider suitable.

In my opinion, the game is better playable than many other games already declared 'final' long ago. There are bugs and annoyances but most of the time it's possible to live with them. And there's always chance they'll get fixed somewhere in the future.

[sal_vager]

Unfortunately Puddin, you cannot please all the people all the time, no matter what happens there will be some who will be disappointed.

The game is in development, so yes addons will break, saves may become incompatible and things will change as well as improve, all I can say is what I've said already, Squad are going to see this out and finish KSP.

Exactly what it looks like at 1.0 is not set in stone, but is limited by development man-hours and funds.

You want to hold Squad accountable but you really can't, you are on a train ride that's still rolling, just hold on and enjoy it

[moeggz]

It is because of crap that this that the developers put in there themselves that make me think this game simply won't leave alpha stages so it can always be told that the game isn't finished yet when an issue arises.

Which is entirely possible, and within Squad's legal rights. KSP was, and in some ways still is, a gamble. You paid a reduced price for an incomplete product. If it were to become a 1.0 game with the next update I agree accountability would go up. But the scope of the game would either diminish or cost you more for future DLC. I play with mods too and I agree that updates breaking mods are annoying, but it has to be expected when a game goes under such great change per update. If you wish to complain about a product after buying it that makes sense. But to complain about it not conforming to standards that the company explicitly told you it has no obligation to meet doesn't make sense to me. A more constructive option would be to report your bugs and make suggestions to squad then to ask them to redefine the game before they think it is ready, IMO. If I'm misunderstanding your argument please let me know, I'm all for constructive debate.

Edited July 6, 2014 by moeggz
Grammatical error

[turkwinif]

@sal_vager

lol just repeating what the devs say isn't getting anywhere. and you seem to be missing the point. You pay a tire center to put new tires on your car. Keep in mind you have already handed them the money. They tell you that you can drive your car around while they are getting it done but if it leaks then you will just have to wait for them to finish. Ok so you just wait for them to finish. 3 years later they still aren't finished, your tires still leak and you are not allowed to inquire about when it will actually get done. If you do ask when it would be finished you get scolded. Do you not see anything fishy here at all? Perhaps they did get it done and they are just telling you that it isn't done in case anything goes wrong they can just say "it wasn't finished yet"

You use a tire center as an example, but your example backfired immediately (in bold) since you said that you first paid them, and then after paying them they told you about any issues that may arise. Squad tells you the terms of service (as provided by KasperVld) before you even purchase KSP. If you did not read the terms of service before purchasing KSP, that's your own fault (not saying that you didn't read them).

EDIT: Whoops, appears as if I completely missed two more pages in this thread. Didn't mean to repeat anything anyone said past page 3, sorry.

Edited July 6, 2014 by turkwinif

[PwnedDuck]

I'm going to have to stop you there, indeed you paid for a product but you paid for it as it was when you bought it. Nowhere does Squad give their word that it will be finished. In fact when you look at the terms of service you agree to when purchasing the game it says:

(full terms of service available here.

This of course doesn't say or even imply that the game won't be finished, but my point here is merely that you did not buy a full game, nor did you 'invest' in one. You paid for KSP as it was at the time you bought it, and nothing else

This is another fallback I'm tired of. Every time a complaint is made about the game, somebody always jumps up and shouts "Ha! You should be grateful Squad even bothers to work for a living! You dare to think it was ever implied that the barely functional mess of a game you purchased back in .14 would ever be worked on."

Yes, Squad are well within their legal rights to just snort all our money up their noses and go and live in Mauritius or something. But a lot of people would be angry and disappointed. Nobody bought the game with anything other than an expectation (or more or less absolute desire that) it would be finished, even if they did legally speaking. It's in alpha (or whatever word you want to use, it isn't finished), Squad doesn't have to develop it beyond alpha. But I'd really like them to and whenever I complain about a descision they make it's just me further explaining exactly what it is I'd (or anyone else complaining) like.

[Maxander]

They give out updates regulary with a considerably high quality compared to many other early access games i have purchased.

Unlike most early access the current state at each update could be the last and i would still consider it a great game.

Sure its not done, there is faults but in the end they have delivered exactly what the said they would, a work in progress.

I will only be disappointed if they say they are done without completing the scope they have planned.

Fortunatly so far i seen nothing but they increasing the scope with new features that was not initialy in the plan.

The release model with prerelease qa on each update probably take a huge amount of time they could have spent on adding features and parts but i rather have something polished to play with while they work instead of a barely working normal alpha or beta.

[Synapse86]

Squad have done great things with KSP and nurtured an exceptional community but OP is right about their lack of informative news. Just look at the .24 release. What do we have? More updates would be great.

The whole "alpha" thing is just deceptive behavior or as we like to call it now "marketing", Squad are game developers not heroes of social justice so I'm on the fence about that. And apparently some people think it is fine to be an arse so long as you don't break the law? Sigh.

Regardless I just enjoyed several hours of making ion gliders and launch systems, Kerbal Space Program is an awesome.

[Reicht]

Alpha is a game until all systems are in place (Current vision wise), beta until all content using those systems are in place, then gold once bug squashing has been performed on that content complete status.

Addendum: Puddin sounds like someone who has never worked on a game or software product, as such I suggest OP educate themselves before speaking so brusquely.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Reicht

[sal_vager]

News.

More news.

More stuff here.

And here.

And even here.

Oh and don't forget here.