KSP Community CubeSat

[dharak1]

That appears to be the measurement for Phobos. I just ran the numbers and we would have 1.92 Kilos of thrust.

[Oafman]

The great advantage we have over the likes of NASA is that, whilst they have to conduct through and expensive testing, we can just prove the concept in KSP, and it is bound to work in the real world....

[R0cketC0der]

The great advantage we have over the likes of NASA is that, whilst they have to conduct through and expensive testing, we can just prove the concept in KSP, and it is bound to work in the real world....

No, it isn't. Real life is different from ksp in extremly many ways and if we would use it as a mission planning tool, the mission would be bound to fail.

[dharak1]

Also we don't get our goals changed every couple terms.

[bsalis]

I say just focus on permanent LEO, with a camera and basic sensors.

That is ambitious enough, affordable with some crowdfunding, and should have a good chance of success.

[N_las]

No, it isn't. Real life is different from ksp in extremly many ways and if we would use it as a mission planning tool, the mission would be bound to fail.

I am pretty sure his remark was not serious.

[RRG]

We should definately begin with a LEO probe, possibly with an engine,to keep it in orbit for as long as possible, get some experience, and perhaps even rendezvous with a retired satellite to take some pictures.

[Nicholander]

Yes, earlier I suggested doing a debris de-orbit tech demo.

[mythic_fci]

Not very well. I can't seem to squeeze the right D/V out of stock parts, so I'll need to redo the configs.

[dharak1]

The first goal and mission is for sure LEO. We can take pretty pictures and test stuff.

[Duxwing]

No, it isn't. Real life is different from ksp in extremly many ways and if we would use it as a mission planning tool, the mission would be bound to fail.

I think he was joking.

--

LEO seems the limit for whatever funding the forum could provide. A possible additional source of funding for such extended missions as Lunar orbit would be SQUAD, which could advertise KSP via the craft, and we could also compete for other grants. An interplanetary mission would require legal and financial advice and services to prevent us from unwittingly breaking the law and protect our huge sums from embezzlement and mismanagement. The mission also would require such extensive ground support as high-power transmitters and high-gain receivers, expert astronomical knowledge, and competent pilots. Getting--not to mention funding--this support would be extraordinarily expensive without extraordinary budgetary assistance.

-Duxwing

[mythic_fci]

The first goal and mission is for sure LEO. We can take pretty pictures and test stuff.

I know that well. Earlier I recommended a 2u Cubesat which would test basic propulsion, computer, sensor, and transmitting systems to be sent into LEO.

[christheman200]

I just spotted this thread, and I've got to say that it seems genius.

What I love about KSP is that its community is filled with people who dare to try the "impossible".

I'm currently working on an automated landing water rocket on a thread in the science labs here http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84593-Curiosity-Style-Egg-Drop-Lander/page9

From what I learn in this project, I might be able to give you guys some actual help.

Keep going with this project. I vote for a Phobos flyby, because if we can even manage to pull off a cubesat launch, I think we can use our collective minds to do whatever we want.

[lajoswinkler]

Low Earth orbit is the best we can hope for. I'll be glad to help with localized PR and material behaviour knowledge, if it's neccessary.

I hope Squad will recognize this because it's a true opportunity for them.

This could maybe be done using Kickstarter and Squad's input, but I think we should contact Elon Musk, too. If this was 100,000 USD worth of a mission, I doubt he'd be reluctant to donate at least half of it.

Kickstarter only... it will not happen. KSP isn't that popular yet.

[Nicholander]

So you think the ultimate mission which we can do is still in LEO? I doubt that. Yes, LEO will have to do with our first mission, but for our ultimate one I think we can at least go for GTO or a Lunar fly-by or impactor.

[Error404brain]

That look awesome but for what I know space is a scary place. Radiations, solar flare, high energy electrons,... So how will u protect the craft ?

A launch to venus sound way moar feasible since the thermal shield needed could be directed to the sun during the transfer, and thus prevent spending weight in shielding.

It would need something like 3k from LEO (2.5 to interplanetary and 0.5 to raise the perige), wich is feasible.

ANd we could get found for to study the venus athmophere via a ballon hide behing the thermal shield who would fall back in venus. The interplanetary craft used as a relay and would study the magnetospher of venus + weather.

I don't believe that either squad nor musk would spend the price of that sat just for pub. So we need to make science otherwise we won't achieve anything else than LEO

PS: Sorry for my pitoyable english. Feel free to insult me for it.

PS2: Aye first post on the forum \o/

[Sky_walker]

If this was 100,000 USD worth of a mission, I doubt he'd be reluctant to donate at least half of it.

I laughed.

LEO seems the limit for whatever funding the forum could provide.

I doubt forum can provide funding for a proper solar panels alone, not to mention LEO satellite. Kickstarter or large external sponsor would be necessary to even buy components, not to mention anything more than that.

So you think the ultimate mission which we can do is still in LEO? I doubt that. Yes, LEO will have to do with our first mission, but for our ultimate one I think we can at least go for GTO or a Lunar fly-by or impactor.

The ultimate one might be just as well a mission to another galaxy. It doesn't matter much if you won't be able to even make a functional LEO satellite that will have some value in it other than being a flying rock. Focus on task at hand instead of jumping to some borderline impossible ideas.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Nicholander]

It seems that you think we're not planning to do a KickStarter. We are.

[Kryten]

Pocketqube format is going to be a better fit financially than a cubesat.

[SciMan]

Hmm, most of the problem I can see with a Jupiter (almost said Jool there) or Saturn mission on a even a 6u CubeSat frame would have to be "being heard" or getting a signal back to Earth that has enough power to be detected by the people that sent the probe in the first place. Even out at Mars orbit its best if you can be heard directly from earth without having to use one of NASA's space probes that's already out there as a radio relay. Heck, that might be a thing that our CubeSat could do if we don't end up landing on Phobos, after the primary mission is done. Provided we put a big enough radio on it, that is. Which brings me to an idea I had for a clever way to solve that problem and also actually reduce weight of the communications systems.

Radio antennas cost mass, and so do transmitters. Good thing the ion engine would need an RF power source as well, because a radio transmitter is just an appropriately modulated RF power source operating at the right frequency, fed into a well matched antenna.

See a similarity there? I do.

My idea is basically to spec a communications-grade radio transmitter capable of 80W (plus some overhead for the sake of reliability) so that we can also use it to drive the ion engine. Because an RF powered ion engine in operation generates a lot of RF interference, it would be hard to use the data radio at the same time as the ion engine anyways, so we don't really lose any capability. Since we won't be driving the ion engine all the time, a RF switch would be used to connect the transmitter to either the ion engine or the communications antenna as needed.

Using one transmitter to do the job of two should save mass, but further study into that would be needed.

As far as the antenna is concerned, Voyager 1 can still be heard to this day, and it's high-gain Cassegrain antenna is only connected to a radio with 20W of transmit power. We have 4 times that much power available, at least for short bursts. Dish antennas are heavy, but we don't need all that power so we can use an antenna type that is lighter, but less efficient at turning RF power in a cable into RF waves in space.

Being able to use a smaller antenna because we can just shove more power out of it to compensate also saves mass, but it requires that the first part of my idea works, too.

So what does everyone think?

Good idea, or am I getting into "good at everything, best at nothing" territory?

Edited July 15, 2014 by SciMan

[Sky_walker]

Basic Hardware

• MCU/Computer - Needs to be able to survive radiation. Fortunately, there are some very reasonably priced MCU options that can survive space radiation for a few days. Basic mission wouldn't need much, but it's something that will have to scale up if we go for anything more advanced.
  
• Receiver/Burst Transmitter - Power limitations will prevent reliable continuous signal, but burst transmissions of sufficient power are entirely within reason.
  
• Camera - Ideally something that can survive radiation as well. But it's not as critical for the camera on a short mission. Image degrading over time is something we can probably live with. Of course, it might bite the dust all together, but hopefully not before we get some use out of it. At very least, it will need to take a few pictures of the sky after the launch to establish orientation of the cubesat. After that, gyro-integration can take over.
  
• Optical Gyros - Maintaining orientation will be important for taking any pictures. Potentially for receiving/sending radio communications and getting extra power from the solar panels as well.
  
• Reaction Wheels - Ditto. Nothing fancy here, though. For basic mission, I don't expect picking up enough rotation to need anything more than a weight on an electric motor. This is another component that will go from really cheap to really expensive rapidly as we try for more complicated mission.
  
• GPS - An unlocked GPS unit will give us all the tracking we need for basic mission. It will be useless if we go past LEO, however.
  
• Solar Panels - For basic mission, that's the most expensive part of the hardware, and it will remain among the most expensive even as we scale up.
  

The total cost for this basic kit is going to be under $10k.

And the ground station is where? What about infrastructure? C&C? How are you going to send commands and receive your pictures from space? What's the transmission rate you can hope for? What will be your comms window? Doppler effect?

You really need to know such things, as even basic ground station is easily over 10k euro, and even then I'm not sure if you'd be able to do anything more fancy than sending some very basic commands - and you want to transfer an entire photographs from space. You have no idea how much of a challenge is that - and it becomes much, much more expensive once you think about anything further away than LEO.

It seems that you think we're not planning to do a KickStarter. We are.

Not me, the Duxwing guy.

[Nicholander]

So you mean a smaller version of the CubeSat? I'm still for the CubeSat. (We can put for instruments and stuff)

[lajoswinkler]

I laughed.

Why? Musk has decided to donate to the opening of Tesla museum. Why shouldn't we think he wouldn't agree on helping a KSP CubeSat mission?

So you think the ultimate mission which we can do is still in LEO? I doubt that. Yes, LEO will have to do with our first mission, but for our ultimate one I think we can at least go for GTO or a Lunar fly-by or impactor.

It depends on the popularity of KSP. Unless this starts rolling like a snowball down the hill, nothing will happen, not even one mission.

Let's say the first mission is a success. If the second one is putting the satellite in solar orbit, it would be cool, but it would have low PR value. The public wants photos. So, either a lunar impactor that sends photos before the impact, or a highly eccentric Earth orbit which would supply the public with images of Earth at various distances.

But that's a dream right now; let's stick to the initial mission. Low Earth orbit is realistically the best we can hope for, and the chances of it happening are very small, but large enough to try this out.

Other options for first mission have miserable chances so they aren't worth talking about.

[Sky_walker]

Size of a satellite should depend on what do you want it to do. Not on "what you think".

Do the maths. It's not religion, it's science.

Why? Musk has decided to donate to the opening of Tesla museum. Why shouldn't we think he wouldn't agree on helping a KSP CubeSat mission?

You should scale down your ego.

What you're apparently trying to do here is nothing more than a flying rock with a camera strapped to it. It doesn't have any scientific value and as much value for PR purpose as every other cube sat ever sent to space. If not less (ie. the first satellite of Estonia easily got much more PR value than whatever you can do here).

How exactly are you going to convince Musk to give you even a 1$, yet alone: cover any serious share of expenses? Think about it objectively, cause you're right now so very much hyped on a project that you loose a grasp on reality.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Nicholander]

Hmm, most of the problem I can see with a Jupiter (almost said Jool there) or Saturn mission on a even a 6u CubeSat frame would have to be "being heard" or getting a signal back to Earth that has enough power to be detected by the people that sent the probe in the first place.

However, radio antennas cost mass, and so do transmitters. Good thing the ion engine would need an RF power source as well, because a radio transmitter is just an appropriately modulated RF power source operating at the right frequency, fed into a well matched antenna.

See a similarity there? I do.

My idea is basically to spec a communications-grade radio transmitter capable of 80W (plus some overhead for the sake of reliability) so that we can also use it to drive the ion engine. Because an RF powered ion engine in operation generates a lot of RF interference, it would be hard to use the data radio at the same time as the ion engine anyways, so we don't really lose any capability. Since we won't be driving the ion engine all the time, a RF switch would be used to connect the transmitter to either the ion engine or the communications antenna as needed.

Using one transmitter to do the job of two should save mass, but further study into that would be needed.

As far as the antenna is concerned, Voyager 1 can still be heard to this day, and it's high-gain Cassegrain antenna is only connected to a radio with 20W of transmit power. We have 4 times that much power available, at least for short bursts. Dish antennas are heavy, but we don't need all that power so we can use an antenna type that is lighter, but less efficient at turning RF power in a cable into RF waves in space.

Being able to use a smaller antenna because we can just shove more power out of it to compensate also saves mass, but it requires that the first part of my idea works, too.

So what does everyone think?

Good idea, or am I getting into "good at everything, best at nothing" territory?

I think that is a good idea indeed. But would we still be using ion propulsion for the Jupiter or Saturn missions? That would require insane amounts of solar panels! Though I don't know how much RTGs cost, they're probably not cheap.