Koko The Gorilla

[Duxwing]

What do you think of Koko The Gorilla, the research concerning her, and its potential and known implications? Also consider these questions:

-Is Koko self-aware in the sense of being aware of her own awareness? Why?

-Could we test her awareness and its limitations?

-What are the limitations of her intelligence; e.g., can she understand logic, engineer more than simple tools, or perhaps philosophize?

-Could we teach her the scientific method and have her study other Gorillas, her results unbeknownst-to-her compared with those of human scientists?

-Would her intellectual development have differed in the wild?

-If her communication is not merely conditioned imitation, and if this 'real' communication is due to her upbringing, then can she raise another gorilla in her likeness?

-Were she released into a troupe--wild or captive--would she teach them language?

-Could another language-capable Gorilla communicate with her, and what would they discuss?

-Duxwing

[lajoswinkler]

It's similar to a small child. No, I don't think she's capable of having the full sense of self awareness as an adult human being. She probably has a weak degree of such notion, though, just like kids have.

I highly doubt she could learn other adult gorillas sign language or pretty much anything. She could raise smart ones, though. It's like with feral children. If they miss everything in the first five years, they're ruined for life. Brain gets "cemented".

Koko is a precious being that forces us to think more about ourselves.

[Aethon]

I think this will answer the OP's questions. This is Michael, Koko's "brother" and if you can watch him sign the story of his mother's death without crying- you're a better man/woman than I.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Aethon

[PakledHostage]

Another peripherally related and interesting topic is the Apps for Apes program that is being implemented at a number of zoos that house Orangutans. They use iPads to allow the orangutans to interact with keepers and even other orangutans at other zoos. From what I've read about the project, the apes do exhibit sophisticated creativity and behaviors that suggest an understanding of their individuallity.

[Godot]

Actually already magpies have self awareness (insofar as they can recognize that the being in a mirror is themselves and not another magpie)

So yes, I am absolutely sure that Koko is self aware

The only fundamental difference between speech using apes (and other animals, including Grey Parrot Alex) and humans seems to be,

that apes don´t ask questions.

They use tools, they do tasks when being told, they answer questions when being asked ..

they also make requests like "I want a banana".

But they don´t ask questions themselves like "Where do you go?", "What is this?", "How are you?" and so on

Which is defnitely interesting ... i.e. to wonder why this is so

[K^2]

Interrogative mood is a tricky one, though. In English, it's pretty simple, indicated by certain grammatical structures and some key words. But in a lot of languages, it's completely down to intonation in a lot of cases. Try to ask someone a question in another language while knowing just a few phrases and not knowing the key words associated with asking questions in that language. You'll probably resort to making statements that explain your situation and hope the other person understands, rather than manage to ask a direct question.

This might be the case with our attempts to communicate with other species. Or it might be that interrogative mood itself is a higher level linguistic constructs, so it's not natural in their native communication.

I'd expect dolphins to have an equivalent concept. So I think it should be possible to organize a communication scheme where questions can be asked both ways.

[jfull]

I think that a small degree of self-awareness might be quite common among the most intelligent and social animal species. Apes, dolphins, and probably even dogs are likely aware of themselves in both the physical and social sense, and are capable of understanding concepts such as "This Human likes me" or "This Human is upset at me".

However, self-awareness is only the most basic part of true sentience, I think. These creatures don't do things that Humans can do like contemplate hypotheticals, plan for the future, or question the nature of their world; and this is because their brains aren't built for the kind of multi-tiered, high-level thought processes that those kinds of things take.

I think that humans might be the only life to have crossed over a certain critical threshold. Larger and more complex brains obviously contribute to higher intelligence, but once a brain reaches a certain point where it is capable of handling those truly complex thought processes, it causes an exponential jump in the being's apparent intelligence, without requiring an exponential increase in brain size.

...then again, this could all just be my own crazy babble...

[Guest]

I find this subject very difficult, because i want it to be true. I want to think there is something else that can understand us, something that wants to talk and be with us.

I agree with the above poster, however i want to extend slightly. They are self aware, they want things from us, they will respond to things; however, critically, they dont think about WHY more than any other creature, i.e i am hungry, not "i'd love a banana over that orange, however can my human friend afford it? Does he have one? What does he want? Where does the bannana come from? Why dont i like the orange".

[Duxwing]

It's similar to a small child. No, I don't think she's capable of having the full sense of self awareness as an adult human being. She probably has a weak degree of such notion, though, just like kids have.

You mean like a 1-2 year old? All my memories include my being aware of my own awareness--even sometimes exploiting my self-awareness for fun and profit.

I highly doubt she could learn other adult gorillas sign language or pretty much anything. She could raise smart ones, though. It's like with feral children. If they miss everything in the first five years, they're ruined for life. Brain gets "cemented".

Could she teach a baby gorilla sign language?

Koko is a precious being that forces us to think more about ourselves.

I agree--and suggest we should consider writing "who" not "that" to reflect her near-human intelligence.

@jfil We know that at least some Great Apes can do what you said they cannot--"contemplate hypotheticals, plan for the future, or question the nature of their world"--because chimps given an elevated treat and enough boxes to reach it by stacking them will stack the boxes and eat the treat. These structures are too complex to be built on impulse, instead requiring testing of the strength of the materials and answering the question, "What if this stack falls?" lest the stack should by failing hurt the chimp.

-Duxwing

[78stonewobble]

Well I don't think it's near human intelligence, but there certainly is intelligence, with a sort of self awareness. As Linear said it:

"I agree with the above poster, however i want to extend slightly. They are self aware, they want things from us, they will respond to things; however, critically, they dont think about WHY more than any other creature, i.e i am hungry, not "i'd love a banana over that orange, however can my human friend afford it? Does he have one? What does he want? Where does the bannana come from? Why dont i like the orange". "

[lajoswinkler]

You mean like a 1-2 year old? All my memories include my being aware of my own awareness--even sometimes exploiting my self-awareness for fun and profit.

Self-awareness starts between the first and third year for normally developed kids. It doesn't instantly turn from being completely oblivious to being fully aware of one's self, though. It's gradual. Human are remarkably good at it, compared to other primates.

This raises a question if we can even form early memories without being self-aware. It's complicated and would require asking it to a bunch of child psychologists.

Could she teach a baby gorilla sign language?

I can't say that she could, but I don't think there's any obstacle to it. Koko clearly understands the benefit of such knowledge, otherwise she wouldn't use it on her own. I'd say she'd probably try to teach the baby.

I agree--and suggest we should consider writing "who" not "that" to reflect her near-human intelligence.

Yeah, English language is weird with these things. Animals are an "it", yet ships are a "she".

[Duxwing]

Well I don't think it's near human intelligence, but there certainly is intelligence, with a sort of self awareness. As Linear said it:

How do we know that Koko doesn't do those things?

-Duxwing

[CaptainKipard]

This is Michael, Koko's "brother" and if you can watch him sign the story of his mother's death without crying- you're a better man/woman than I.

TIL that not crying means you're a better person. Thankyou Aethon!