[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[RoverDude]

Thanks - when the dust settles I'll start getting some links up. It would be lovely to see community maintaned patches that remove Kethane dependencies, but those really need their own thread for the mod owner to support their endeavours

[sidfu]

hey rabid are u using updated epl? cause epl also has a scrap byproduct also now.

[Doctor Axel]

Question - I'm attempting to use Module Manager to add Ore and Aquifer scanning / extracting to the Antenna and Drill parts (was able to get it to work happily when directly modifying the .cfg file so I sort of kind of get the idea...) but I'm not seeing anything changed when I load the game. I'm sticking my .cfgs in my own directory and I'm pretty sure it's loading it right because I'm also adding ORS information in that same directory, and the ORS stuff is being added in fine.

As an example my antenna .cfg looks like this:

@PART[Antenna]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Ore
		mapViewAvailable = true
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Aquifer
		mapViewAvailable = true
	}
} 

Any advice for someone who's kind of an idiot at this? =)

[rabidninjawombat]

hey rabid are u using updated epl? cause epl also has a scrap byproduct also now.

Yea I am, the scrapmetal byproduct, I purposely ignored it in the conversion (I just don't feel liked i needed the extra layer of complexity ) MKS/ORS is complex enough

EDIT(To avoid double Post)

Dr. Axel, your config is fine, but you not addressing the part name correctly, Open the part.cfg files for the part your adding, and look at the name in the file, for the antenna for example its "Karbonite_Antenna" you wanna use the part name as its stated into the part.cfg file

Edited July 29, 2014 by rabidninjawombat

[DuoDex]

I'm using a computer that can't handle running Unity right now (and using Unity daunts me), but I'd be willing to try and and make a .obj model with textures of a electric generator if someone would convert it.

[Doctor Axel]

Dr. Axel, your config is fine, but you not addressing the part name correctly, Open the part.cfg files for the part your adding, and look at the name in the file, for the antenna for example its "Karbonite_Antenna" you wanna use the part name as its stated into the part.cfg file

Ahhh I see. Thought it used the name of the actual .cfg file. I'll try that - thanks ^^

EDIT

That did the trick for the scanner, thanks. ^^ My new modules for the drill are also loading (I see Water Extractor: offline and Ore Extractor: offline) but I still only have an Extract Karbonite button - the other two have no buttons. Guessing I'm missing something?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Doctor Axel

[Smurfalot]

If you are anxious to get it working with scansat right now, I just pulled this from the scansat dev thread.

1. Create a new MM config file in your Karbonite folder. You can name it anything, lets say ScanSatPatch.cfg

2. Paste the following code to the file and save

@PART[Karbonite_Antenna]:FOR[Karbonite]:NEEDS[SCANsat]
{
MODULE
{
name = SCANsat
sensorType = 262144
fov = 4
min_alt = 5000
max_alt = 750000
best_alt = 100000
scanName = Karbonite Scan
power = 0.5
}
}

I did something similar to add the Karbonite Scan and the MKS resource scan to the SCANsat Multispec Sensor.

Can someone double check I am using the right "sensorType" for these and a quick question-- can these two be mixed in the same MM Cfg since they are for different mods? Edit: I went ahead and just broke them into separate cfgs.

For Karbonite:

@PART[SCANsat_Scanner24]:FOR[SCANsat]:NEEDS[Karbonite]

{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Karbonite
		mapViewAvailable = true
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = SCANsat
		sensorType = 262144
		fov = 4
		min_alt = 5000
		max_alt = 500000
		best_alt = 250000
		power = 0.5
		scanName = Karbonite Scan
		animationName = Multi_Antenna
	}

}

For MKS:

@PART[SCANsat_Scanner24]:FOR[SCANsat]:NEEDS[KolonyTools]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Ore
		mapViewAvailable = true
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Minerals
		mapViewAvailable = true
	} 
 	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Aquifer
		mapViewAvailable = true
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ORSResourceScanner
		resourceName = Substrate
		mapViewAvailable = true
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = SCANsat
		sensorType = 114816
		fov = 4
		min_alt = 5000
		max_alt = 500000
		best_alt = 250000
		power = 0.5
		scanName = Resource Scan
		animationName = Multi_Antenna
	}
}

Edited July 29, 2014 by Smurfalot

[The Pink Ranger]

I've got a question about ORS and compatibility with Interstellar.

The KSPI fix adds "OpenResourceSystem_1_1_0.dll" while Karbonite adds "OpenResourceSystem.dll" to the same folder. Should I delete one of these? I think Interstellar might be preventing the Karbonite extractor & converter from functioning properly.

[Mutifex]

I've got a question about ORS and compatibility with Interstellar.

The KSPI fix adds "OpenResourceSystem_1_1_0.dll" while Karbonite adds "OpenResourceSystem.dll" to the same folder. Should I delete one of these? I think Interstellar might be preventing the Karbonite extractor & converter from functioning properly.

Yeah just one of them. Whenever in doubt, go with the one from interstellar as it was interstellar that introduced ORS. Mod authors using ORS simply redistribute those files for people who perhaps don't use interstellar.

[elfindreams]

Ok here are the MFT config and the PP configs as well as a placeholder texture for the PP.

Hopefully someone with better skills can take a stab at making a texture for it, I just made cut up something from the base tank and matched up the sides and whatnot so it tiled.

https://docs.google.com/a/elfindreams.com/file/d/0B8a1K8EUgZmVcGRFU1lrWnphUVU/edit?usp=drivesdk

[dlrk]

Is there any reason to use Karbonite if KSPI ISRU is being used for fuel?

[elfindreams]

Is there any reason to use Karbonite if KSPI ISRU is being used for fuel?

Karbonite and the ISRU are different even though they both use ORS. Karbonite is a Kethane analog so it mines a "magic resource" that is on all the planets that can be converted to fueld and monoprop just like Kethane. ISRU is more "realistic" in that it has specific inputs for specific conversions that only exist on specific bodies, etc.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Ok here are the MFT config and the PP configs as well as a placeholder texture for the PP.

Hopefully someone with better skills can take a stab at making a texture for it, I just made cut up something from the base tank and matched up the sides and whatnot so it tiled.

https://docs.google.com/a/elfindreams.com/file/d/0B8a1K8EUgZmVcGRFU1lrWnphUVU/edit?usp=drivesdk

If you want, I had already written a PP config for Karbonite including tech limits. Posted it many pages back. It creates tanks slightly heavier than and with the same amount of Karbonite per volume as the one provided with the mod.

Here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/ProceduralKarbonite.cfg

[RoverDude]

Yeah just one of them. Whenever in doubt, go with the one from interstellar as it was interstellar that introduced ORS. Mod authors using ORS simply redistribute those files for people who perhaps don't use interstellar.

Actually, the stock KSP-I install is broke, so use KSPI-experimentals. Both that modder and I fixed ORS, but his covers both my case as well as KSP-I, so I'll be switching us over to KSPI-experimentals till Fractal updates the main ORS stuff. Already sent a patch request and an offer of assistance.

Is there any reason to use Karbonite if KSPI ISRU is being used for fuel?

Probably not tbh, as noted, two different processes. I'd say KSP-I is a lot more realistic, Karbonite is a lot simpler and more 'mass market' if that makes sense.

[PeterDracos]

One thing I've noticed and decided to point out in the thread. At least as of 0.0.5, there's a key difference between Kethane and Karbonite infrastructure. That difference is density. One unit of Karbonite is a LOT denser (and heavier) than Kethane. 1.1 units of Karbonite, which is about how much it takes for 1 unit of LiquidFuel, is more than twice as heavy as 1 unit of LiquidFuel. What does that mean?

Don't put your Karbonite refinery in orbit, if you can help it. It's easier to mine and convert on the ground than in space. And unless RoverDude changes the conversion ratios or densities by a lot, that's not gonna change.

Which, to be fair, is not a bad thing. Right now, with conversion rate still not throttled by drilling rate, it's faster to fill fuel tanks than karbonite tanks. Once 0.0.6 comes out and that's no longer the case, drilling and refining facilities are still gonna be more interesting* to assemble on the ground than in orbit.

* 'interesting' in this case could also mean 'difficult,' 'complicated,' or 'explodey.'

[dlrk]

Gotcha, I'll use the KSPI resources then, with MKS. Can I safely remove Karbonite, or is it an MKS dependency?

[Mutifex]

Actually, the stock KSP-I install is broke, so use KSPI-experimentals. Both that modder and I fixed ORS, but his covers both my case as well as KSP-I, so I'll be switching us over to KSPI-experimentals till Fractal updates the main ORS stuff. Already sent a patch request and an offer of assistance.

Ahh yeah i forgot to specify the experimentals version, though I am pretty sure that is what he has as the file I have is named similarly. Thank gods interstellar has someone looking after if in fractals absence. I would cry without my orbital power stations microwaving everything in sight.

[RoverDude]

Ahh yeah i forgot to specify the experimentals version, though I am pretty sure that is what he has as the file I have is named similarly. Thank gods interstellar has someone looking after if in fractals absence. I would cry without my orbital power stations microwaving everything in sight.

Or, thank gods Fractal gave us a permissive license

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Also, in case anyone finds them useful, here are updated versions of the two patches I wrote for EPL compatibility. They do the following:

1. Adds the ability for the Karbonite converter to transform Karbonite into Metal for EPL. It does it at about 60% efficiency.

2. Adds KarboniteResourceConverter modules to EPL parts so that the complete manufacturing chain is available with only Karbonite and EPL installed. The larger the part, the more efficient it is at converting stuff. Smelters convert Ka to Metal somewhat more efficiently than the Karbonite converter part, since they don't discard ScrapMetal, which can be reprocessed into Metal. Smelting takes more about 5x the electric charge of Karbonite's included conversions to LiquidFuel/MonoProp etc.

3. Adds the ability to drill Karbonite to EPL drills and Baha's EPL drills, but I have no idea how to animate them.

Link 1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/KarboniteConvert_EPL-Metal.cfg

Link 2: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/Karbonite_EPL-Patch.cfg

These probably work, but if they don't, let me know!

Edited July 29, 2014 by AccidentalDisassembly

[RoverDude]

One thing I've noticed and decided to point out in the thread. At least as of 0.0.5, there's a key difference between Kethane and Karbonite infrastructure. That difference is density. One unit of Karbonite is a LOT denser (and heavier) than Kethane. 1.1 units of Karbonite, which is about how much it takes for 1 unit of LiquidFuel, is more than twice as heavy as 1 unit of LiquidFuel. What does that mean?

Don't put your Karbonite refinery in orbit, if you can help it. It's easier to mine and convert on the ground than in space. And unless RoverDude changes the conversion ratios or densities by a lot, that's not gonna change.

Which, to be fair, is not a bad thing. Right now, with conversion rate still not throttled by drilling rate, it's faster to fill fuel tanks than karbonite tanks. Once 0.0.6 comes out and that's no longer the case, drilling and refining facilities are still gonna be more interesting* to assemble on the ground than in orbit.

* 'interesting' in this case could also mean 'difficult,' 'complicated,' or 'explodey.'

Density will not change, because the loss in mass accounts for waste, and does make some things more interesting. That being said, drilling overrun is already fixed

Gotcha, I'll use the KSPI resources then, with MKS. Can I safely remove Karbonite, or is it an MKS dependency?

Yep there is no dependency - MKS has no dependency whatsoever for a fuel source, it just supports Karbonite if it's there.

[BrutalRIP]

RoverDude i cannot get karbonite to work unless i change your texture replacer .cfg to read like this

TextureReplacer

{

keepLoaded = ^UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/ORS/

}

TextureReplacer

{

keepLoaded = ^UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/ORS/

}

then it works fine

[RoverDude]

RoverDude i cannot get karbonite to work unless i change your texture replacer .cfg to read like this

TextureReplacer

{

keepLoaded = ^UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/ORS/

}

TextureReplacer

{

keepLoaded = ^UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/ORS/

}

then it works fine

I am learning to hate TextureReplacer. Let me try that version of the config in my next patch.

[Doctor Axel]

Also, in case anyone finds them useful, here are updated versions of the two patches I wrote for EPL compatibility. They do the following:

1. Adds the ability for the Karbonite converter to transform Karbonite into Metal for EPL. It does it at about 60% efficiency.

2. Adds KarboniteResourceConverter modules to EPL parts so that the complete manufacturing chain is available with only Karbonite and EPL installed. The larger the part, the more efficient it is at converting stuff. Smelters convert Ka to Metal somewhat more efficiently than the Karbonite converter part, since they don't discard ScrapMetal, which can be reprocessed into Metal. Smelting takes more about 5x the electric charge of Karbonite's included conversions to LiquidFuel/MonoProp etc.

3. Adds the ability to drill Karbonite to EPL drills and Baha's EPL drills, but I have no idea how to animate them.

Link 1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/KarboniteConvert_EPL-Metal.cfg

Link 2: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/Karbonite_EPL-Patch.cfg

These probably work, but if they don't, let me know!

Nice. ^^

I'm wary of making Metal a product of Karbonite, though, especially if Ore is a thing in so many other places... I've been having a look at making Ore acquirable through the ORS/Karbonite system, so fuel mining and metal mining would be separate but functionally similar operations.

I THINK I've successfully added Ore to the ORS planetary resources by stealing it from MKS. From there I'd just need to make the EPL work like Karbonite detectors for ORS Ore, and the EPL drills work like Karbonite drills for Ore... right? (don't get your hopes up about me doing this with any kind of speed because I suck at it. =P)

Either way, I am using these configs in the mean time.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Nice. ^^

I'm wary of making Metal a product of Karbonite, though, especially if Ore is a thing in so many other places... I've been having a look at making Ore acquirable through the ORS/Karbonite system, so fuel mining and metal mining would be separate but functionally similar operations.

I THINK I've successfully added Ore to the ORS planetary resources by stealing it from MKS. From there I'd just need to make the EPL work like Karbonite detectors for ORS Ore, and the EPL drills work like Karbonite drills for Ore... right? (don't get your hopes up about me doing this with any kind of speed because I suck at it. =P)

Either way, I am using these configs in the mean time.

I would imagine so. My thinking was that, at least in the absence of other mods like MKS, Karbonite is essentially an Ore. It's just that it can also be converted in to LF/OX/MP.

[Robotengineer]

The air scoop is almost done.

tell me what you think about that, I can still do some changes, particularly on the rear grill.

Again, feedback is very useful to me. @RoverDude, do you have an idea about when you will need this?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Robotengineer
Grammar. Resized.