[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[inigma]

I assume you are talking about the resource overlay bubbles? That is something internal to ORS, doesn't have anything to with karbonite itself. So you would have to go get the source code for ORS and change it there, and from what I have read making those textures transparent is allot harder than it sounds, FractalUK was saying it would take a significant amount of work to get it to do that. So good luck, if you can do it you are awesome!

Cheers

Already on it after I posted last. My progress is documented here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64595-Open-Resource-System-%28ORS%29-Mod-Resource-API-version-1-4-2?p=1437017&viewfull=1#post1437017

I'm stuck now, as I just can't seem to get the darned sphere to be transparent whatsoever. Also, I'm not sure if at this point I should be forking this from Fractal and ORS or with RoverDude with ORSX.

[endl]

what are the operational boundaries for the orbital karbonite collector (the dish)? do you have a tutorial page like for MKS?

[RoverDude]

what are the operational boundaries for the orbital karbonite collector (the dish)? do you have a tutorial page like for MKS?

10% of the max atmo range, so Kerbin is 69k-76k (roughly - shoot for 73)

[endl]

10% of the max atmo range, so Kerbin is 69k-76k (roughly - shoot for 73)

ty, are there any plans for larger karbonite tanks?

[Gaalidas]

Correct. Latest version of SCANSat support this

I've started to wonder if we're ever going to see another stable release of scansat. It's been in the release candidate stage for quite a while and you can't even download it directly from the dev thread's original post. At least they still publish to github, else this would be a nightmare.

[RoverDude]

ty, are there any plans for larger karbonite tanks?

Define larger?

I've started to wonder if we're ever going to see another stable release of scansat. It's been in the release candidate stage for quite a while and you can't even download it directly from the dev thread's original post. At least they still publish to github, else this would be a nightmare.

Better question for the SCANSat thread.

[endl]

Define larger?

i needed like half an orange can geometrically speaking but then i remembered you have tweak scale support and i just used one of the smaller parts for the dimensions i needed.

one more question whats the operational boundaries of the scanner array? it seems to work from pretty far i have a satellite out at 600km do i get better detection if im at a lower orbit?

[RoverDude]

i needed like half an orange can geometrically speaking but then i remembered you have tweak scale support and i just used one of the smaller parts for the dimensions i needed.

one more question whats the operational boundaries of the scanner array? it seems to work from pretty far i have a satellite out at 600km do i get better detection if im at a lower orbit?

Line of sight based, that's it

[MaxShadow]

Nice mod Roverdude! I was using Kethane until I saw this. Wanted to use both but due to memory limitations I decided to keep Karbonite instead. Being able to collect the resource from air and sea is a really good addition. However, land mining feels a bit OP. I just sent to minmus a little ship with two big tanks and three drills, landed it in a good spot (+4000) and started mining. The tanks got filled instantly... Looks like a single mining ship can feed any amount of refueling stations, being the transport the only obstacle. Too bad Karbonite is not edible While this is better than having to change the mining location all the time, it also makes interplanetary travel much more simple and less challenging. If you are using extraplanetary launchpads, it makes you completely forget about getting fuel, forever. I think that the collection rates should be nerfed because Karbonite is also infinite, and that feels really unbalanced.

[forsaken1111]

Instant filling is a bug I am fairly sure. They do not fill THAT quickly.

[RoverDude]

Instant filling is a bug I am fairly sure. They do not fill THAT quickly.

concur. What version of Karbonite?

[piinatsu]

concur. What version of Karbonite?

I concur. On the most recent release, version 0.4.1. The Generator converts Karbonite into other resources way too fast (almost instantly).

[MaxShadow]

concur. What version of Karbonite?

4.0.0... I see there's an update. So it's a bug? Well that's better. At least I know it's not supposed to mine that fast.

[BigD145]

I've seen instant mining in 0.4.1, but only once. Other times it's worked fine.

[RoverDude]

I'll take a look at the rates, they are due for a refresh anyway

[RoverDude]

So theorycraft time (as this is the dev discussion thread).

I'm considering adding a couple of things.

One is consumables - basically drill bits and such - coupled with thresholds on what an extractor can dig out.

Small drills can only drill on the heavier concentrations, but are more consumable efficient.

Larger drills can drill almost anywhere, but are less consumable efficient.

Second is mechanics for 'prospecting' where you have to land and extract samples to unlock portions of the resource map (which can then be viewed from orbit).

A subset (third mechanic) is the idea of resource depletion and amplification. Heavy drills will tend to reduce efficacy over time (but never to zero) in a prospecting area. Additional exploration and deep drilling can tap (increase) the abundance in a prospecting area.

Thoughts?

[PresidentBacon]

So theorycraft time (as this is the dev discussion thread).

I'm considering adding a couple of things.

One is consumables - basically drill bits and such - coupled with thresholds on what an extractor can dig out.

Small drills can only drill on the heavier concentrations, but are more consumable efficient.

Larger drills can drill almost anywhere, but are less consumable efficient.

Second is mechanics for 'prospecting' where you have to land and extract samples to unlock portions of the resource map (which can then be viewed from orbit).

A subset (third mechanic) is the idea of resource depletion and amplification. Heavy drills will tend to reduce efficacy over time (but never to zero) in a prospecting area. Additional exploration and deep drilling can tap (increase) the abundance in a prospecting area.

Thoughts?

(new-ish poster so my post may need to be moderated and get buried under replies)

I think that's great, it extends the life of the plugin, rather than just setting up a base in a high concentrated area and you're done on the resource side of things from then on.

Of course, some people like the simplicity of the original Karbonite concept, it's one thing that largely differs from Kethane. I'm sure you could make it toggleable and have most likely already considered that. But if its something toggleable, couldn't you add it as a strategy in the administration building when .25 is out? Assuming you can utilize the building in that sense. Just an idea, and seems much better to toggle it that way rather than a simple config.

[undercoveryankee]

So theorycraft time (as this is the dev discussion thread).

I'm considering adding a couple of things.

One is consumables - basically drill bits and such - coupled with thresholds on what an extractor can dig out.

Small drills can only drill on the heavier concentrations, but are more consumable efficient.

Larger drills can drill almost anywhere, but are less consumable efficient.

Second is mechanics for 'prospecting' where you have to land and extract samples to unlock portions of the resource map (which can then be viewed from orbit).

A subset (third mechanic) is the idea of resource depletion and amplification. Heavy drills will tend to reduce efficacy over time (but never to zero) in a prospecting area. Additional exploration and deep drilling can tap (increase) the abundance in a prospecting area.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of consumables. Gives a bigger incentive to upgrade our MKS bases to the level of manufacturing spare parts.

For prospecting, I think it's fair to have a low-resolution map detectable from orbit. Enough to tell, say, that one ten-km region is better than another. Then some ground-side mapping within that 10-km area would be needed to find the best place to drill.

[aeroeng14]

Definitely would look forward to the prospecting. Gives a reason for well designed rovers and local exploration, like the rover missions from FinePrint.

[MaxShadow]

I like the resource depletion idea. You could make it so when you start extracting in one spot, it creates an area with a certain radius, where the extraction rate is reduced. The reduction multiplier and radius would raise logarithmically over time. Using another device, or through prospecting, the player would be able to reduce the multipler and radius, but he wouldn't be able to extract in that area at the same time.

About prospecting, it's also a good idea, but taking in account that low gravity moons makes rover driving a real pain, it would be a bit tedious to find karbonite only this way. You could make it so the detector has less maximum effective range, with 0 minimum range. The radius of detection could increase inversely with the altitude, so you get a big detection range when you are landed.

Finally, about the consumables... I personally don't like that idea. It would make the mod harder because you would have to bring spare parts with you, increasing dry weight. And after some time you would need to deliver more (when you could simply send some fuel to your refueling station). You could make more devices to produce these parts, but that would add complexity. With KSP-I and MKS/ORS we have enough resource production

[inigma]

So theorycraft time (as this is the dev discussion thread).

I'm considering adding a couple of things.

One is consumables - basically drill bits and such - coupled with thresholds on what an extractor can dig out.

Small drills can only drill on the heavier concentrations, but are more consumable efficient.

Larger drills can drill almost anywhere, but are less consumable efficient.

Second is mechanics for 'prospecting' where you have to land and extract samples to unlock portions of the resource map (which can then be viewed from orbit).

A subset (third mechanic) is the idea of resource depletion and amplification. Heavy drills will tend to reduce efficacy over time (but never to zero) in a prospecting area. Additional exploration and deep drilling can tap (increase) the abundance in a prospecting area.

Thoughts?

I don't think progressive drilling efficiency reduction in the answer to the cheaty aspects of Karbonite in its current form. I really think you need to consider a more long term development goal of a primary and secondary resource system, with Karbonite the infinite primary resource, but in far rarer quantities and more difficult to extract; and then three other resources that Karbonite can be broken down into and later refineable into consumable resources, but also these secondary resources can be found in finite quantities in abundance in various specific locations in the system. I outlined it here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87335-24-2-Karbonite-Ongoing-Dev-and-Discussion?p=1431008&viewfull=1#post1431008

What are your thoughts on this approach for mainline Karbonite development?

[Covert]

Thoughts on theorycraft:

I am neutral on the idea of drill diversity and finite drill lifespan. The tonnage of X you can mine out per ton of drill bit

should be pretty generous (otherwise why mine at all).

I agree being able to use MKS to go full circle would be interesting.

I am just not sure the interest of this feature is worth the complexity for "casual users" of the mod.

I like the idea of prospecting to get actual densities.

(Especially if actual densities were somehow per save variable instead of totally hard wired).

I am not a fan of resource depletion as a gameplay mechanic. It is hard enough to get a base

network setup - having to "migrate to resources" all the time would be annoying and not fun (at least to me...).

[RoverDude]

I don't think progressive drilling efficiency reduction in the answer to the cheaty aspects of Karbonite in its current form. I really think you need to consider a more long term development goal of a primary and secondary resource system, with Karbonite the infinite primary resource, but in far rarer quantities and more difficult to extract; and then three other resources that Karbonite can be broken down into and later refineable into consumable resources, but also these secondary resources can be found in finite quantities in abundance in various specific locations in the system. I outlined it here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87335-24-2-Karbonite-Ongoing-Dev-and-Discussion?p=1431008&viewfull=1#post1431008

What are your thoughts on this approach for mainline Karbonite development?

Can't recall if I noted it earlier in the thread, but I've traditionally left resource diversity as something to leave for other folks to do as extensions to Karbonite, not something I'd roll into the core (which is why K+ was done as a separate mod).

[RoverDude]

Thoughts on theorycraft:

I am neutral on the idea of drill diversity and finite drill lifespan. The tonnage of X you can mine out per ton of drill bit

should be pretty generous (otherwise why mine at all).

I agree being able to use MKS to go full circle would be interesting.

I am just not sure the interest of this feature is worth the complexity for "casual users" of the mod.

I like the idea of prospecting to get actual densities.

(Especially if actual densities were somehow per save variable instead of totally hard wired).

I am not a fan of resource depletion as a gameplay mechanic. It is hard enough to get a base

network setup - having to "migrate to resources" all the time would be annoying and not fun (at least to me...).

Yep, intent would be to save the variance but use the PNG maps as a base.

RE depletion - the mechanic would be that the more stable you would want a deposit (i.e. given that it never goes to zero, can you continue to extract, even at a high cost), the more infrastructure you would want.

So small hoppers work for scattered but high density deposits. Larger bases and infrastructure can continue to work even if an area is drained to only a trickle, but you would at some point need to have the infrastructure to produce mining supplies, harvest ore, etc. for replacement parts, etc.

[endl]

your proposal sounds awfully similar to armor repair, these are traditionally there for the purpose of slowing down player progress to end game as they are resource sinks. for a game like kerbal thats basically a design space for the imagination i dont think this mechanic is warented unless you wish to limit it to something like career mode. i like the idea of prospecting but thats about it.