[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[J3ansley]

One is consumables - basically drill bits and such - coupled with thresholds on what an extractor can dig out.

Small drills can only drill on the heavier concentrations, but are more consumable efficient.

Larger drills can drill almost anywhere, but are less consumable efficient.

Second is mechanics for 'prospecting' where you have to land and extract samples to unlock portions of the resource map (which can then be viewed from orbit).

A subset (third mechanic) is the idea of resource depletion and amplification. Heavy drills will tend to reduce efficacy over time (but never to zero) in a prospecting area. Additional exploration and deep drilling can tap (increase) the abundance in a prospecting area.

Thoughts?

1. I don't mind consumables if it's say ReplacementParts or something that you already have. I'm pretty close to the resource max for my play interests. When I click on an OKS part the infobar already goes down past my screen and on some I can't see half the box.Too bad we can't move those infoboxes around. With that said, consumables, nor the difference with small vs large drills will add any enjoyment to my play. I'll add more X consumable which will make me take more fuel and that's about it. I guess with the small drill limitation, I'd only drop a rover down on the heavier concentration parts and not bother with exploring outside of that area.

2. Sounds promising I guess, but I am not at the level of play where I do much rovering around. So, hopefully I will still be able to get karbonite without this. I tried the K+ surveying and it just increased this time sink of a game by a magnitude which means I don't use K+ at all yet.

3. What exactly do you mean by "Additional exploration and deep drilling"? I think this would force me to placing a singular base with a couple mobile miners spread out and then using the logistics hub more. Maybe if there was a tier'd system with your drills. If the drill had say 100 Basic Machinery or something then it can drill this much area. After the area is consumed maybe you could "upgrade" it with Advanced Machinery and then Spec Machinery too? Maybe have it set up so a straight vertical drill would not need anything, but if you wanted to increase your area of drill then you need to consume Robotics and Adv Machinery. In order to increase the rate (say sim Frakking) then you need to consume Robotics, Spec Machinery and water.

[RoverDude]

your proposal sounds awfully similar to armor repair, these are traditionally there for the purpose of slowing down player progress to end game as they are resource sinks. for a game like kerbal thats basically a design space for the imagination i dont think this mechanic is warented unless you wish to limit it to something like career mode. i like the idea of prospecting but thats about it.

Different mechanic. The goal is not to slow folks down, but rather to differentiate between hitting a high concentration spot vs a low concentration one.

Given that energy is essentially free, as is time, both are ineffective levers (no matter how high the power draw or how slow the rate, it's trivial to overcome). So the intent is to add another lever of cost - where there's a point that digging through 1,000,000 tons of soil for 100 years to get one unit of Karbonite does not make financial sense.

1. I don't mind consumables if it's say ReplacementParts or something that you already have. I'm pretty close to the resource max for my play interests. When I click on an OKS part the infobar already goes down past my screen and on some I can't see half the box.Too bad we can't move those infoboxes around. With that said, consumables, nor the difference with small vs large drills will add any enjoyment to my play. I'll add more X consumable which will make me take more fuel and that's about it. I guess with the small drill limitation, I'd only drop a rover down on the heavier concentration parts and not bother with exploring outside of that area.

2. Sounds promising I guess, but I am not at the level of play where I do much rovering around. So, hopefully I will still be able to get karbonite without this. I tried the K+ surveying and it just increased this time sink of a game by a magnitude which means I don't use K+ at all yet.

3. What exactly do you mean by "Additional exploration and deep drilling"? I think this would force me to placing a singular base with a couple mobile miners spread out and then using the logistics hub more. Maybe if there was a tier'd system with your drills. If the drill had say 100 Basic Machinery or something then it can drill this much area. After the area is consumed maybe you could "upgrade" it with Advanced Machinery and then Spec Machinery too? Maybe have it set up so a straight vertical drill would not need anything, but if you wanted to increase your area of drill then you need to consume Robotics and Adv Machinery. In order to increase the rate (say sim Frakking) then you need to consume Robotics, Spec Machinery and water.

Use the middle mouse button to move the camera and see longer boxes btw Which specific boxes are problematic? I've been on a crusade to reduce the more complex ones.

Anything in this discussion would be an extension for folks into exploring and mining and such (much as MKS is not for everyone unless you really dig base building).

RE item 3 - basically a mechanic where there's variance in concentrations directly affected by the player, both in a positive and negative light. Strip mine an area, it becomes harder to mine (hence the tie in to consumables). Invest in infrastructure and increase output (and reduce the consumables lever).

[endl]

Different mechanic. The goal is not to slow folks down, but rather to differentiate between hitting a high concentration spot vs a low concentration one.

Given that energy is essentially free, as is time, both are ineffective levers (no matter how high the power draw or how slow the rate, it's trivial to overcome). So the intent is to add another lever of cost - where there's a point that digging through 1,000,000 tons of soil for 100 years to get one unit of Karbonite does not make financial sense.

not really they are both progression hurdles, i just dont see it adding much value to something like sandbox. for career mode its definitely cool

[J3ansley]

Use the middle mouse button to move the camera and see longer boxes btw Which specific boxes are problematic? I've been on a crusade to reduce the more complex ones.

Holy moses that trick is amazing. I'm running TAC LS and EL so I think the boxes are longer than your normal run. But for me the longest box is the Assembly Plant. It has 4 lines per MEP output along with the normal "Control From Here" and RT2 SPU lines.

[RoverDude]

not really they are both progression hurdles, i just dont see it adding much value to something like sandbox. for career mode its definitely cool

We'll agree to disagree on game design then

- - - Updated - - -

Holy moses that trick is amazing. I'm running TAC LS and EL so I think the boxes are longer than your normal run. But for me the longest box is the Assembly Plant. It has 4 lines per MEP output along with the normal "Control From Here" and RT2 SPU lines.

Yeah this is why I tried to keep most down to three or less.

[J3ansley]

Different mechanic. The goal is not to slow folks down, but rather to differentiate between hitting a high concentration spot vs a low concentration one.

Anything in this discussion would be an extension for folks into exploring and mining and such (much as MKS is not for everyone unless you really dig base building).

Are you saying this would be an extension of OKS/MKS like Karbonite + is to normal Karbonite? If so, then my vote is absolutely yes.

[RoverDude]

Are you saying this would be an extension of OKS/MKS like Karbonite + is to normal Karbonite? If so, then my vote is absolutely yes.

It would be an extension of sorts, yes. How I tie in that extension depends. I do not want to force people to use MKS/OKS and it's infrastructure, so your flip side is shipping in the consumables. Granted, they will be light enough that it's not much of an issue, but where it does gently nudge people to be a bit more selective and not just land on the first spot they see and start digging.

[helaeon]

It would be an extension of sorts, yes. How I tie in that extension depends. I do not want to force people to use MKS/OKS and it's infrastructure, so your flip side is shipping in the consumables. Granted, they will be light enough that it's not much of an issue, but where it does gently nudge people to be a bit more selective and not just land on the first spot they see and start digging.

My thought is the "cheaty" aspect, and I exploit it like crazy, is that you can land just about everywhere mine karbonite and reliably make fuel fairly quickly in lander sized amounts. Choosing a landing site requiring re-fueling on the surface gets more interesting if it would take a year to dig up enough at site A, but at site B it will take 30 minutes.

So rate of extraction probably needs to be much lower and the concentrations generally lowered, except for some really hot spots. In those cases I think the fields should be a little bigger so a super precision landing isn't necessary.

I'm not a super huge fan of consumable parts like drill bits. Maybe some sort of re-fit kit for certain substrates? I'm thinking like the Cacteye Telescope mod. You could use KAS to pop in a drill module or something, then maybe some kind of mechanic so you don't burn it out. If you're careful you don't have to worry about it though. That would require scouting and prospecting to know what bit to put in (reason to do EVA!), but if you brought a sufficient enough tool kit (weight penalty of course) you could do what I am now - but slower, and you'd need to think about what you're doing after you land, and there would be weight penalty.

Then for bases you'd know what you're doing so you could bring a specialized drill that wouldn't be re-fitable and that would have certain advantages other than not needing multiple kinds of bits.

Just some ideas.

[endl]

i was thinking about the direction you want to take so that mining isnt so brain dead, and i have a counter proposal what if instead of consumables you create an enhancement system. where your mining efficiency starts off low but by interfacing components you can increase it.

for example you have a deploy able that attaches like KAS from a 2ndary site that does stuff like "filters ore". it would make the deploy able large and expand from a radial mounting so it doesnt make sense to slap it onto the same mission vehicle due to the stability problems it would cause but rather design one thats dedicated also it should require a kerbal to interface the two modules.

Edited October 1, 2014 by endl

[forsaken1111]

I like the idea of different kits for different circumstances. Do an initial site survey to determine concentration and local strata and then develop a drill kit to pierce said strata. Maybe even swap kit as you hit different layers until the bore hole is at the lode, whereupon you swap to extraction.

[endl]

I like the idea of different kits for different circumstances. Do an initial site survey to determine concentration and local strata and then develop a drill kit to pierce said strata. Maybe even swap kit as you hit different layers until the bore hole is at the lode, whereupon you swap to extraction.

i love the idea for drill swapping to get deeper/better resource efficiency.

it totally hits all the requirements.

1. not brain dead

2. requires EVA

3. cant just be launched with all the parts.

[gigaboom2]

I have a request. I noticed that the drill does not need to be in the ground to remove karbonite. You van have it sticking straight up and still collect it. Could you make it so that the drill needs to be underground to work?

[forsaken1111]

I have a request. I noticed that the drill does not need to be in the ground to remove karbonite. You van have it sticking straight up and still collect it. Could you make it so that the drill needs to be underground to work?

I believe right now it just checks to see if the vessel is landed. Having it actually check for a terrain collision will be interesting, if its even possible since I don't think the drill bit has a collider at all.

[nli2work]

yea no collider on the drill tips or you won't be able to get into the ground at all. some kind of raycast check is probably the easiest way to check whether the drill is actually pointed at the ground or sky.

[gigaboom2]

yea no collider on the drill tips or you won't be able to get into the ground at all. some kind of raycast check is probably the easiest way to check whether the drill is actually pointed at the ground or sky.

It is possible, the kethane drills need to be submerged. (I have since quit kethane and have become a loyal karbonite-ist)

[RoverDude]

It is possible, the kethane drills need to be submerged. (I have since quit kethane and have become a loyal karbonite-ist)

Yep, it was one of the features cut when making this project launch in two weeks

A Kethane-style transform check would work, but would necessitate retro-fixing all of the drills and doing it in a way that did not hose people over

[smart013]

Sorry for repeating a question thats posted before, but since then there were a lot of changes. So, right now, does the collector get karbonite from anywhere around duna? In orbit, not in the atmosphere. Af if it is still working as intended that there should be none, where and how can i change it in the configs so that the collector can collect (maybe small) amounts of karbonite?

Right now i play with the actual version of karbonite, ors, orsx, kspi (not lite), and everything besides this works great. No k+ installed, because i dont want to lose the option to convert karbonorum for my jump beacons

[RoverDude]

Sorry for repeating a question thats posted before, but since then there were a lot of changes. So, right now, does the collector get karbonite from anywhere around duna? In orbit, not in the atmosphere. Af if it is still working as intended that there should be none, where and how can i change it in the configs so that the collector can collect (maybe small) amounts of karbonite?

Right now i play with the actual version of karbonite, ors, orsx, kspi (not lite), and everything besides this works great. No k+ installed, because i dont want to lose the option to convert karbonorum for my jump beacons

Duna is surface only. You could create a new atmospheric config (don't edit the ones we already have or they will get stomped over) that adds karbonite to duna's atmosphere.

[endl]

is there a resource i can look at for karbonite levels/rates. im trying to figure out why im getting so little fuel from my kerbin orbital collector. do resources dry up atm?

[smart013]

Duna is surface only. You could create a new atmospheric config (don't edit the ones we already have or they will get stomped over) that adds karbonite to duna's atmosphere.

Sorry again, but it tried to make the necessary changes in karbonite and /or CRP Pack, ORS / ORSX, community ressource pack but failed miserably. Whatever i did i could toggle karbonite for collecting, but nothing gets collected in the process. Any help from anyone would be highly appreciated.

On a personal note - if any planet in the kerbol system should have karbonite for athmospheric collection imho its duna. I understand your intention to make a lot of things in and around karbonite (imho) artificially hard and complicated to prevent to get labelled "too easy" or "cheating" by the hardcore crowd, but i as a humble player with only challenging fun on his mind dont like too many restrictions .)

Needless to say that i really admire your work, these are just my 2c worth of critique.

[RoverDude]

Sorry again, but it tried to make the necessary changes in karbonite and /or CRP Pack, ORS / ORSX, community ressource pack but failed miserably. Whatever i did i could toggle karbonite for collecting, but nothing gets collected in the process. Any help from anyone would be highly appreciated.

On a personal note - if any planet in the kerbol system should have karbonite for athmospheric collection imho its duna. I understand your intention to make a lot of things in and around karbonite (imho) artificially hard and complicated to prevent to get labelled "too easy" or "cheating" by the hardcore crowd, but i as a humble player with only challenging fun on his mind dont like too many restrictions .)

Needless to say that i really admire your work, these are just my 2c worth of critique.

Why Duna? Also what Karbonite version? And are you using a particle collector and an atmospheric scopp?

And I'd say less about being 'hard' and more about having some variety

[endl]

are there any additional "rules" to orbital collection for kerbin besides being at 73km? does it matter if your using the regular orbital collector or the advanced one?

[RoverDude]

are there any additional "rules" to orbital collection for kerbin besides being at 73km? does it matter if your using the regular orbital collector or the advanced one?

Collection range is max atmospheric height to max atmo height + 10%, with an added bonus in the config file that the larger collector from K+ has.

[endl]

Collection range is max atmospheric height to max atmo height + 10%, with an added bonus in the config file that the larger collector from K+ has.

EDIT: ok i figured out whats going on its the conversion rates, the build up is so slow it looks like its doing nothing because it instantly converts whatever its trying to make but its not enough for the value to actually be visable, even at higher time warp it still looks like its doing nothing.

can i make a suggestion for better clarity, can you leave the collection rate the same for karbonite but change the conversion rate so that it doesn't use the karbonite until it can make 1 useable unit of whatever this would help trouble shooting design problems much better.

Edited October 4, 2014 by endl

[inigma]

RoverDude can you roll into Karbonite your mini-drill? Karbonite really should have as default parts for all standard scale sizes.