[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Smurfalot]

Dude.. physically impossible, even if licensing allowed it. We're talking apples and tractors here. They both come in red and green, but you can't eat a tractor. ORS != Kethane. Kethane is Kethane based, Karbonite is ORS based. There is no option of compatibility at the feature level. Only equivelant would be to create a Karbonite resource in Kethane... but no real point to that, just use Kethane.

Ok fine, I did not mean to p.ss you off...I am just trying to find a substitute for the damn overlay because I like it better than the ORS hotspots.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Smurfalot

[RoverDude]

Ok fine, I did not mean to .... you off...I am just trying to find a substitute for the damn overlay...

- - - Updated - - -

Ok fine, I did not mean to p-ss you off...I am just trying to find a substitute for the damn overlay...

Not pissed, just frustrated - it's not like I am being all mean and refusing to allow some overlay to work... it's that there just isn't any way to make it work. Nor is this about 'principle' as much as it is about allowing the community to build something without being shackled to a license that constricts collaboration.

And for a week. I think we've done pretty well

[Yargnit]

I would argue that ORS's inability to automatically apply itself to other planetary bodies would be a large reason to support Karbonite being able to use the Kethane back-end as opposed to the ORS back end. (Kethane is procedural) Mining becomes a much bigger deal when adding additional planets as i was talking about earlier, because as neat as it is, Kerbin's planetary system is too small to need mining by default. Not being able to have it automatically add to new planets is going to be a huge shortcoming. - The other thought it to use a custom version of ORS that adds this in as well as tweaks the overlay to me more user friendly like Kethanes?

Edit; in case I came off a bit harsh there, sorry, it really is looking great, especially for being so new, just thoughts to make it more viable to broad appeal.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Yargnit

[nismobg]

Not pissed, just frustrated - it's not like I am being all mean and refusing to allow some overlay to work... it's that there just isn't any way to make it work. Nor is this about 'principle' as much as it is about allowing the community to build something without being shackled to a license that constricts collaboration.

And for a week. I think we've done pretty well

Amen to that ! Have a beer , Cheers

[RoverDude]

I would argue that ORS's inability to automatically apply itself to other planetary bodies would be a large reason to support Karbonite being able to use the Kethane back-end as opposed to the ORS back end. (Kethane is procedural) Mining becomes a much bigger deal when adding additional planets as i was talking about earlier, because as neat as it is, Kerbin's planetary system is too small to need mining by default. Not being able to have it automatically add to new planets is going to be a huge shortcoming. - The other thought it to use a custom version of ORS that adds this in as well as tweaks the overlay to me more user friendly like Kethanes?

I kinda feel like I am talking to a wall here

There is absolutly no point to build a mod that fills the same problem space as Kethane that is based on Kethane... because Kethane already has a system that handles mining stuff and turning it into fuel... it's called Kethane. And if that floats your boat, then by all means go for it. A more logical way to address your concern would be procedural PNGs... which is already being worked on for Karbonite. But ORS and Kethane are wildly different back ends.

RE the Overlay... with all due respect, take a look at the SCANSat integration and bear in mind they have two different paradigms. Don't get me wrong... a prettier overlay would be nice eye candy, but with ORS (especially if you use logarithmic resource mapping like Karbonite does) your issue is generally not one in hunting down a binary and limited field... it's about resource concentration. So the overlay experience would also be different.

The lovely bit is... if someone wants to make one, they can. It's an open license project.

[Yargnit]

I guess I was looking at it more as an alternative to Kethanes generally less visually appealing tanks and the sheer number of parts it adds to your game. To be completely honest my preference would be for Karbonite to not depend on Kethane or ORS, for the same reason I don't want to look at scansat integration. I despise mod dependencies. One of the biggest issues I have with KSP mod development ATM is how many mods depend on mods X Y and Z also to work rather than just functioning on their own, but thats an issue for another thread. It was just that by depending on kethane you'd be depending on 1 other mod, as opposed to ORS & scansat both, and the two of those combines still not giving as much functionality as just Kethane dependency. That's all I was getting at. Not trying to be a wall.

[Smurfalot]

The forum is being very buggy for me tonight with lagging, duplicating posts etc.

I get what you are saying, there is no point in making a replacement that has anything to do with the thing being replaced because that defeats the purpose of replacing it.

My main issue is, I have never been able to get ORS hot spots to display so I have always depended on the kethane overlay to show me where things are. No overlay, no way to find resources, no point trying to harvest in the blind. See what I am saying?

[nismobg]

Sorry for not looking around before asking but can you generate resource map for new planets based on the alpha map of the new planet?

[RoverDude]

I guess I was looking at it more as an alternative to Kethanes generally less visually appealing tanks and the sheer number of parts it adds to your game. To be completely honest my preference would be for Karbonite to not depend on Kethane or ORS, for the same reason I don't want to look at scansat integration. I despise mod dependencies. One of the biggest issues I have with KSP mod development ATM is how many mods depend on mods X Y and Z also to work rather than just functioning on their own, but thats an issue for another thread. It was just that by depending on kethane you'd be depending on 1 other mod, as opposed to ORS & scansat both, and the two of those combines still not giving as much functionality as just Kethane dependency. That's all I was getting at. Not trying to be a wall.

Building a resource system from scratch is non-trivial. ORS has a permissive license (I can derive and go to town provided I include the correct notices). Kethane does not. So extension of Kethane is not an option, plus the community needed an alternative. I have less of an issue with depending on things like FireSpitter, ORS, etc. where the licensing is more open than in extending walled gardens where you have to be careful of licensing rules. And I'd say at this point, Karbonite is coming very close to having the same functionality as Kethane (within the bounds of it's analogues) and by the time I am through, will surpass it.

A Kethane depencency simply is not an option due to it's licensing, end of story. Just seems to me this may not be the mod for you, which is fine. Competition and options in the mod space is a good thing, and just as Kethane is not for everyone (and some folks scrubbed it from their hard drives with glee) I respect that Karbonite is not for everyone either. As someone who has to take a resource mod dependency for my other mods (MKS/OKS), I'm a lot more comfortable with ORS (and even more with Karbonite) than I am with Kethane.

[RoverDude]

The forum is being very buggy for me tonight with lagging, duplicating posts etc.

I get what you are saying, there is no point in making a replacement that has anything to do with the thing being replaced because that defeats the purpose of replacing it.

My main issue is, I have never been able to get ORS hot spots to display so I have always depended on the kethane overlay to show me where things are. No overlay, no way to find resources, no point trying to harvest in the blind. See what I am saying?

Use the latest release. No offense, but I've answered this issue like... 20 times now. If you have TextureReplacer there's a config you have to fix till I can make a patch. Otherwise, this is just stock out of the box ORS:

And again... Deposits do not matter. It's just efficiency. It's a lot more forgiving than Kethane. I remain baffled over why folks need an overlay when the entire paradigm of how you gather resources is different.

[RoverDude]

Sorry for not looking around before asking but can you generate resource map for new planets based on the alpha map of the new planet?

No reason why not, it just needs a grayscale. The stuff Arrowstar did pretty much generates random ORS maps. I just need to see how ORS picks up PNGs that I make on the fly.

[Smurfalot]

Use the latest release. No offense, but I've answered this issue like... 20 times now. If you have TextureReplacer there's a config you have to fix till I can make a patch. Otherwise, this is just stock out of the box ORS:

http://i.imgur.com/C2wHCu6.png

And again... Deposits do not matter. It's just efficiency. It's a lot more forgiving than Kethane. I remain baffled over why folks need an overlay when the entire paradigm of how you gather resources is different.

The latest release of what?

[RoverDude]

The latest release of what?

Karbonite. I spent the afternoon going through and updating all of the display thresholds so folks could see pretty orange dots.

[Liowen]

And again... Deposits do not matter. It's just efficiency. It's a lot more forgiving than Kethane. I remain baffled over why folks need an overlay when the entire paradigm of how you gather resources is different.

I think I can shed some light as to why people feel they need one. It is basically they want Kethane without the tracking....that's it. If Kethane had little flowers that popped up for resources they would be asking why doesn't this have little trees? Considering it has only been less than a week I feel it is coming a long great! Function before fashion, what it the point of something that looks good but doesn't what it i suppose to?

I would also challenge those who feel that they could do better to do it, or better yet don't just complain make the source code and have it work. There are things I would like to see, but since I know I cannot compile coding or make models I will hold off asking for them until the base system is in place first, it will make adding in new things later easier.

[RoverDude]

Well next up is Oceanic and Atmospheric resources.

Side note - Laythe, due to the staggering water volume, is going to be out atmospheric and oceanic hybrid planet. Oceanic on Eve, atmospoeric on Jool, land based everywhere else. Should lend some interesting variety.

[jfjohnny5]

Wow! This has come a LONG way in a week. Very impressive. Great work to all that have been combining efforts to make this happen! Really looking forward to where this mod is headed.

[RoverDude]

Wow! This has come a LONG way in a week. Very impressive. Great work to all that have been combining efforts to make this happen! Really looking forward to where this mod is headed.

Thanks... working on Jool and Laythe cloud harvesting next. May have to fork ORS though to allow for velocity-based intakes (or get really creative with the plugin).

[sidfu]

did encounter 1 bug put the karbonite drill->karbonite tank-> epl tank modifed to hold karbonite->refinery->stock fuel tank and keep getting message that couldnt find the resouce path. now this ofcouse is from the bottom up with drill on bottom. was gonan try another cfg of it to see what it was but game crashed when i zoned back into vab ill try again later need a break now.

[Robotengineer]

I should have the intake done tomorrow, Haven't worked on it hardly at all this weekend. I've messed around with the Karbonite alpha's, so many releases in such a short time is a bit hard to keep up with

[Yargnit]

Actually I'm glad you posted that picture, because that's not what my overlay looks like. This is what mine looks like:

Big enormous orange bubbles, not those small dots. & I haven't installed texture replacer besides what u bundle with Karbonite. Also note thet only show up when I'm closish to them. I can't see the ones all the way across the continent like in your picture.

[enneract]

Actually I'm glad you posted that picture, because that's not what my overlay looks like. ...

The other thing to note is that Karbonite does not run out like Kethane does. There isnt x amount of Karbonite at a location, the concentration reflects how quickly it can be mined is all.

Furthermore, you really should look at the SCANSat integration. It isn't a dependency, but it proves a much more (imo) useful tool for mapping any ORS (or even Kethane) resource than the Kethane overlay.

[Qberticus]

Here's an Active Texture Management config for Umbra Space Industries and the ORS files. It's similar to what is required for Texture Replacer. Afaik you can only have one config file per directory so I don't believe it's possible to separate these out for the different mods.

ACTIVE_TEXTURE_MANAGER_CONFIG
{
folder = UmbraSpaceIndustries
enabled = true

OVERRIDES
{
UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/ORS/.*
{
compress = false
mipmaps = false
scale = 1
max_size = 0
make_not_readable = false
}

UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/ORS/png/.*
{
compress = false
mipmaps = false
scale = 1
max_size = 0
make_not_readable = false
}

UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/ORS/.*
{
compress = false
mipmaps = false
scale = 1
max_size = 0
make_not_readable = false
}
}
}

[Mutifex]

I guess I was looking at it more as an alternative to Kethanes generally less visually appealing tanks and the sheer number of parts it adds to your game. To be completely honest my preference would be for Karbonite to not depend on Kethane or ORS, for the same reason I don't want to look at scansat integration. I despise mod dependencies. One of the biggest issues I have with KSP mod development ATM is how many mods depend on mods X Y and Z also to work rather than just functioning on their own, but thats an issue for another thread. It was just that by depending on kethane you'd be depending on 1 other mod, as opposed to ORS & scansat both, and the two of those combines still not giving as much functionality as just Kethane dependency. That's all I was getting at. Not trying to be a wall.

There are a couple of things about the whole compatibility/new planets/karbonite vs kethane functionality debate that I think need to be keep in mind at all times.

1. Neither kethane nor Planet Factory have been updated for 0.24.2 and neither seem to have a licence which allows anyone else to update them in the author's absence at this time. Neither of them are truly functional, though some people do get some mileage out of PF.

2. Resource maps for new planets won't be an issue in a world where there is a popular and widely used resource gathering system based on ORS. They just have not to date because it wasn't entirely necessary. That being said, maps were made for at least a few planet packs to accommodate interstellar so... its really a non issue. The content will be made based on what people use and the demand.

3. Karbonite and Kethane aren't really incompatible. Like you could run both at once just like you may already do now with kethane and interstellar. They simply are not compatible in that they share no systems and will not talk to each other or integrate. While I see no real point in using both, you could.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Mutifex

[Boomerang]

Just a quick question that I might have missed the answer to. I've seen people mention SCANSat integration for displaying the Karbonite concentrations. Is that actually a thing yet (if so, how does one go about making that work?) or is it on the to-do list?

And I've got the massve orange spheres like were posted above, but it's not that worrisome at the moment.

[Mutifex]

Just a quick question that I might have missed the answer to. I've seen people mention SCANSat integration for displaying the Karbonite concentrations. Is that actually a thing yet (if so, how does one go about making that work?) or is it on the to-do list?

And I've got the massve orange spheres like were posted above, but it's not that worrisome at the moment.

It is a thing indeed. You will need the dev version of scansat from here :

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80661-0-23-5-DEV-SCANsat-v-7-0-Real-Scanning-Real-Science-at-Warp-Speed!?p=1169815#post1169815

I THINK the detector is also the scansat object. Someone else can probably confirm or deny this as I haven't got all my satellites in orbit yet on my career save to have all the details.