[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[ModZero]

Ug lets not bring in discussions of chemical compositions on this particular resource. That gets into the whole: "Is LiquidFuel LH2 or not" debate and trust me we don't want to get into that bag of wind.

I most definitely wasn't going there, in fact the serious component was that maybe it would be useful to stray away from hypothesizing xenon or argon or whatever, into some abstract "noble gas" thingie that would be used in electric engines. And the "more than the K" referred to pronunciation, nothing else.

[Doctor Axel]

This thread is going at break neck speed (which is awesome) so I may have missed the boat on this but with regards to modding this to work with other mods:

I have been creating add-ons for Kethane for a while now which add extra resources, changes the kethane balance to make it harder to use and adding tanks to the kethane converters (to get round the routing issue). This is all done with MM scripts and extra tanks so its a case of the player just picking a choosing which add-on they want and dropping its folder in the gamedata folder. I think this method would be ideal for this mod and I would be happy to help out in creating these if anyone is interested.

To give you an idea my add-ons are located here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/71140-WIP-KSP-0-24-Kethane-Plus-v0-3

I had the same sort of thing in mind (inspired by your K-Plus, actually) - there are a few configs hanging around the latter part of this thread that work approximately like this. AccidentalDisassembly and I both did some Extraplanetary Lanchpads configs, and I kind of sort of wanna look at doing configs for TAC LS and Near Future resources once the aero and hydro parts are out.

I, however, am terrible at this - so if you wanna take what I did and do it better I am all for it. =P

[raziel420]

I think karbonite is perfect, consider it a heavy hydrocabon molecule, possibly with it's own oxygen bonds making it prefect for most fuels (with some refining) with oxy as an extra exhaust output. Could use any number of different hydrocarbon chain sections for a variety of things, plastics, generators (natural gas), refine it to RP-1 (kerosene), or start some serious cracking for hydrogen, could even use the leftover carbon to make "diamond" glass.

[Krevsin]

I think karbonite is perfect, consider it a heavy hydrocabon molecule, possibly with it's own oxygen bonds making it prefect for most fuels (with some refining) with oxy as an extra exhaust output. Could use any number of different hydrocarbon chain sections for a variety of things, plastics, generators (natural gas), refine it to RP-1 (kerosene), or start some serious cracking for hydrogen, could even use the leftover carbon to make "diamond" glass.

That makes sense.

Also, the inefficiencies at conversion might explain how you get Xenon from the blasted stuff. Since you're basically taking in large quantities of dirt/air/liquid, it makes sense that you also absorb some trace elements with it. You can get the trace elements at a very inefficient rate (because you throw away most of the stuff you have to get those few sweet, precious Xenon molecules).

Well, I think we have a handwavy enough way of explaining how Karbonite can be a One-For-All resource.

[RoverDude]

That makes sense.

Also, the inefficiencies at conversion might explain how you get Xenon from the blasted stuff. Since you're basically taking in large quantities of dirt/air/liquid, it makes sense that you also absorb some trace elements with it. You can get the trace elements at a very inefficient rate (because you throw away most of the stuff you have to get those few sweet, precious Xenon molecules).

Well, I think we have a handwavy enough way of explaining how Karbonite can be a One-For-All resource.

Yep, that's exactly why I left the density so high.

So let's talk how we get around the problem of trace stuff plus non-trace stuff.

If we have Xenon be, say, 0.001% of Karbonite or some such thing, we throw out a lot of good rock with fuel in it... but if we make it part of the same conversion, you have some unintended results like the unwanted filling of fuel tanks when you just want Xenon, or the aforementioned waste.

My proposal is that trace extraction has input of Karbonite, but kicks back.... Less Karbonite and your trace element. So it's very slow, very resource intensive, and you diminish what else you can pull from it. But it is doable, and isn't breaky.

Thoughts?

[Doctor Axel]

If it were up to me, I'd make a separate extractor tool for Xenon - or maybe it could only be Aeroscooped.

Alternatively, perhaps running the extractor will extract Karbonite AND Xenon, each independently of each other, based on the ORS concentrations of each at that location. I like that a lot, actually - basically you turn the drill on, and it gives you whatever there is at that location, and whatever you have storage room for. Then if you've set up any extensions that require extracting Ore/Water/Ice Cream/whatever, you just add those things as possible returns when you run the extractor.

EDIT

Actually I am a much bigger fan of my second idea - make the extractor pull anything it detects through ORS, and which your craft has storage available for.

Want to mine water? Just need an ORS definition for aquifer water, and a Karbonite drill. Want to scoop ice cream from the ocean? Just need an ORS definition for oceanic ice cream and a Karbonite ocean harvester. So if you're only using Karbonite, you'll only get Karbonite. If you use Karbonite and TAC and Interstellar and Ice Cream and have ORS definitions for those, you'll get all those as well without needing to change any configs. Super extensible, and super flexible. =)

Edited July 30, 2014 by Doctor Axel

[DuoDex]

Yep, that's exactly why I left the density so high.

So let's talk how we get around the problem of trace stuff plus non-trace stuff.

If we have Xenon be, say, 0.001% of Karbonite or some such thing, we throw out a lot of good rock with fuel in it... but if we make it part of the same conversion, you have some unintended results like the unwanted filling of fuel tanks when you just want Xenon, or the aforementioned waste.

My proposal is that trace extraction has input of Karbonite, but kicks back.... Less Karbonite and your trace element. So it's very slow, very resource intensive, and you diminish what else you can pull from it. But it is doable, and isn't breaky.

Thoughts?

Because xenon can be radioactive (has several radioactive isotopes) this makes sense. Dealing with possibly radioactive stuff usually reduces the value of other stuff pulled from rock. A uranium mine that also contains gold will not produce as much gold as it would if there were no uranium.

[Angelo Kerman]

Yep, that's exactly why I left the density so high.

So let's talk how we get around the problem of trace stuff plus non-trace stuff.

If we have Xenon be, say, 0.001% of Karbonite or some such thing, we throw out a lot of good rock with fuel in it... but if we make it part of the same conversion, you have some unintended results like the unwanted filling of fuel tanks when you just want Xenon, or the aforementioned waste.

My proposal is that trace extraction has input of Karbonite, but kicks back.... Less Karbonite and your trace element. So it's very slow, very resource intensive, and you diminish what else you can pull from it. But it is doable, and isn't breaky.

Thoughts?

Considering how the hydrocarbon refinement process works, where you get a variety of oils, chemicals, plastics and such, I can definitely see having the karbonite refinement process isolate out just what you want from the process, be it oxidizer, monopropellant, liquid fuel- a 3rd party plugin resource- and have the process kick back a lesser amount of karbonite in the process. Having multiple resource extraction processes going simultaneously would represent that hydrocarbon refinement quite well, with diminishing returns. Since I was curious, here's a wikipedia article on the refining process. Specifically, the products you get.

I sense that the Great Karbo Rush is near..

[goldenpsp]

Very excited!. I'll admit I haven't given up my Kethane yet. But mostly because I'm waiting for the rest of the parts for karbonite. Especially the smaller extraction parts. I wish I could help on the project but I wouldn't even know where to begin. I't still confused after reading this entire thread as to how I can get scansat working properly to add karbonite to the map data it scans.

Nice work everyone!

[Smurfalot]

That makes sense.

Also, the inefficiencies at conversion might explain how you get Xenon from the blasted stuff. Since you're basically taking in large quantities of dirt/air/liquid, it makes sense that you also absorb some trace elements with it. You can get the trace elements at a very inefficient rate (because you throw away most of the stuff you have to get those few sweet, precious Xenon molecules).

Well, I think we have a handwavy enough way of explaining how Karbonite can be a One-For-All resource.

Obviously the Khemical formula should be KaH-BO₂M

Enough said

[Targa]

My biggest wish list item: For someone to decompile OpenResourceSystem_1_1_1_USI.dll, and change all references to "sphere" in ORSPlanetaryResourceMapData and ORSResourceAbundanceMarker to "cube", recompile and add it to this plugin. I figured out what Fractal did. He used the Unity engine's built-in ability to create simple shapes and decided to choose a sphere. I don't think he realized that the spheres were comprised of hundreds of polygons. If someone changed this to a cube, we'd not have any framerate issues or lag when displaying the hotspots. Plus, with cubes you wouldn't have the empty gaps between them like you do with spheres - ie: it'd just look better.

[RoverDude]

My biggest wish list item: For someone to decompile OpenResourceSystem_1_1_1_USI.dll, and change all references to "sphere" in ORSPlanetaryResourceMapData and ORSResourceAbundanceMarker to "cube", recompile and add it to this plugin. I figured out what Fractal did. He used the Unity engine's built-in ability to create simple shapes and decided to choose a sphere. I don't think he realized that the spheres were comprised of hundreds of polygons. If someone changed this to a cube, we'd not have any framerate issues or lag when displaying the hotspots. Plus, with cubes you wouldn't have the empty gaps between them like you do with spheres - ie: it'd just look better.

So two quick things - I think the isolated Xenon stuff will be a secondary converter (I will probably use the beautiful model WaRi made for HA since it has more 'gas tank' type stuff):

Second - I'll look at the cube thing and see what's up with that, and if it has promise.

[Ferigad]

Well so far the Mod works good for me. The only issue i got is that i didnt find a good way at the moment to mine the stuff on the mun and shoot it back to my space station around the mun. That stuff seems to be a lot heavyer then regular fuel, could it be? My little mining lander has real issues to climb again when it has a full kerbonit tank with it. With a standart issue fueltank of the same size it doesnt seem to have that issues....

[RoverDude]

Well so far the Mod works good for me. The only issue i got is that i didnt find a good way at the moment to mine the stuff on the mun and shoot it back to my space station around the mun. That stuff seems to be a lot heavyer then regular fuel, could it be? My little mining lander has real issues to climb again when it has a full kerbonit tank with it. With a standart issue fueltank of the same size it doesnt seem to have that issues....

By design. There's a lot of waste and gunk in Karbonite, so it's best to refine it on site into your resource of choice. Granted, with Hollow Asteroids and trace Karbonite in the SOI of certain bodies you'll be able to get it in zero G

[Doctor Axel]

Well so far the Mod works good for me. The only issue i got is that i didnt find a good way at the moment to mine the stuff on the mun and shoot it back to my space station around the mun. That stuff seems to be a lot heavyer then regular fuel, could it be? My little mining lander has real issues to climb again when it has a full kerbonit tank with it. With a standart issue fueltank of the same size it doesnt seem to have that issues....

Yeah, Karbonite is hecka dense. It's probably better to set up your refinery on the surface and launch your products instead - kind of the opposite of Kethane in that regard.

So two quick things - I think the isolated Xenon stuff will be a secondary converter (I will probably use the beautiful model WaRi made for HA since it has more 'gas tank' type stuff): (gas tank)

Shiny =)

I remain attached to the idea of the extractors being able to collect anything defined by the ORS as long as there are parts available to store it - extensibility and all that. And that would mean if there are traces of Xenon where you're mining (according to the ORS definitions), you'll pick up Xenon - rather than having to figure out how it could sensibly be refined from Karbonite.

[RoverDude]

Yeah, Karbonite is hecka dense. It's probably better to set up your refinery on the surface and launch your products instead - kind of the opposite of Kethane in that regard.

Shiny =)

I remain attached to the idea of the extractors being able to collect anything defined by the ORS as long as there are parts available to store it - extensibility and all that. And that would mean if there are traces of Xenon where you're mining (according to the ORS definitions), you'll pick up Xenon - rather than having to figure out how it could sensibly be refined from Karbonite.

The only problem is you end up with very cluttered screens due to the way the part module works... or we are down to a whole rewrite.

[Doctor Axel]

The only problem is you end up with very cluttered screens due to the way the part module works... or we are down to a whole rewrite.

Eugh. Aight, let's not do that =P

[Rakh]

I remain attached to the idea of the extractors being able to collect anything defined by the ORS as long as there are parts available to store it - extensibility and all that. And that would mean if there are traces of Xenon where you're mining (according to the ORS definitions), you'll pick up Xenon - rather than having to figure out how it could sensibly be refined from Karbonite.

The only problem is you end up with very cluttered screens due to the way the part module works... or we are down to a whole rewrite.

Wait, what? Why would that clutter the screen?

[maxrsp]

My proposal is that trace extraction has input of Karbonite, but kicks back.... Less Karbonite and your trace element. So it's very slow, very resource intensive, and you diminish what else you can pull from it. But it is doable, and isn't breaky.

I like this approach far better than having a bunch of extra parts needed to extract / refine other trace elements. Simplicity is elegance

[Doctor Axel]

Wait, what? Why would that clutter the screen?

I think he's referring to the more straightforward way this would be done - just adding all the drillable resources to the existing extractor, which would generate a button for each resource (a lot of buttons).

I like this approach far better than having a bunch of extra parts needed to extract / refine other trace elements. Simplicity is elegance

I tend to agree with keeping part count down. ^^ I am VERY attracted to the idea of having multiple resources that can all be extracted with the same extractors, but I'm already super excited about where this is going and I'll take it in whatever configuration it ends up in. =P

EDIT

I see the ish now, ORSModuleResourceExtraction can't just extract "everything", there has to be a module definition for each resource (and hence a button). That sounds like an enormous pain in the butt to change, so I'm cool with extracting trace elements from Karbonite. ^^

Edited July 30, 2014 by Doctor Axel

[Rakh]

I think he's referring to the more straightforward way this would be done - just adding all the drillable resources to the existing extractor, which would generate a button for each resource (a lot of buttons).

I tend to agree with keeping part count down. ^^ I am VERY attracted to the idea of having multiple resources that can all be extracted with the same extractors, but I'm already super excited about where this is going and I'll take it in whatever configuration it ends up in. =P

Oh. That makes sense, I guess, but would the "less straightforward" way of having only a single button to "extract local resources" really constitute a whole re-write? That seems odd to me.

[Doctor Axel]

refer to my edit to the previous post =P it's actually an ORS limitation I believe, an Extractor module has to have a target resource, it can't just Extract All The Things.

We'd have to talk to the ORS folks about that one.

[RoverDude]

refer to my edit to the previous post =P it's actually an ORS limitation I believe, an Extractor module has to have a target resource, it can't just Extract All The Things.

We'd have to talk to the ORS folks about that one.

Or just branch But 'Extract all stuff' is actually a pretty non-trivial change. But moot point since the design angle is going the direction of sticking to stock extraction rules and having successive processing, and limiting this to a small number of extractors (no more than, say, three things per part).

[Doctor Axel]

Or just branch But 'Extract all stuff' is actually a pretty non-trivial change. But moot point since the design angle is going the direction of sticking to stock extraction rules and having successive processing, and limiting this to a small number of extractors (no more than, say, three things per part).

That too. =P I definitely understand sticking to the stock ORS rules, and I'm cool with that.

Honestly there's like, three resources I'm interested in at maximum - A fuel-type thing (already covered by Karbonite), a lifesupport-type thing (aquiferous Water, probably), and a build-stuff-type thing (covered by EPL's Ore).

[Kervoc]

Thanks for the mod, will try it asap.

Just a heads up: The Github link is wrong, it points to http://www.github/com/BobPalmer/Karbonite instead of http://www.github.com/BobPalmer/Karbonite