[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[ThirdHorseman]

4. I don't like the idea of Karbonite existing as a solid, liquid, AND gas. I totally get it for reasons of simplicity, but I'd really love to see added realism/gameplay by splitting each form into different resources --

There's no reason it has to exist in all three phases, it can remain a solid and yet be found in all three environments. It can be found in large veins in the ground, it can be dissolved in small amounts in the ocean, and it can exist as a particulate in the air.

Something like gold. It can be mined in large quantities in the ground, it can be extracted from seawater, and could exist as a particulate (e.g. gold dust) in the air.

[sober667]

Are you sure about that? I just did a quicksave while flying my plane and it worked fine. Crashed, hit quickload, and there was my plane flying again.

quick save -yes swich to other vehicle - NO if something go into atmosfere more than 2.3km from ur active vessel is vanished end of story only thinks that can do it they must be landed

if u wana absorb fram jool atmosphere u need to fluby and stabilize orbit outside of atmosfere( u could do it just outside so delta v needed will be fractial and u will earn it easly from karbonite)

Edited July 30, 2014 by sober667

[sarbian]

Hey, it seem I missed that thread.

Something is annoying me a bit. Why does it have to be the "A cheerful, license friendly alternative to Kethane!" ?

Yes, Kethane license is really restrictive and I m not a fan of that either, but if your mod is good do you really have to bash an other mod to prove it ? Do you really have to surf on the Majiir hate to have it stand out ?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and what I see in the first post. Damn nice that a mod use ORS more.

But you don't need the Kethane bashing for it to be a good mod

[Doctor Axel]

I concur, actually. It may be time to just let Karbonite be itself, and not "Not Kethane".

[BudgetHedgehog]

I think the OP title was made around the time of the ModStats controversy when people were happy and eager to find something like 'Not Kethane'. RoverDude has said the actual release will have a conventional title/KSP version/date etc so I guess at the moment, the thread title is more of a legacy thing than an actual 'official' title.

That said, now the ModStats controversy has pretty much run its course, a title change along the lines of 'Community-driven ISRU - mining and refining raw resources to fuel!' wouldn't go amiss, I will grant you that.

[ThirdHorseman]

quick save -yes swich to other vehicle - NO if something go into atmosfere more than 2.3km from ur active vessel is vanished end of story only thinks that can do it they must be landed

if u wana absorb fram jool atmosphere u need to fluby and stabilize orbit outside of atmosfere( u could do it just outside so delta v needed will be fractial and u will earn it easly from karbonite)

He said "save with a suborbital trajectory" not "switch control in atmosphere". You can save when on a suborbital trajectory. But yes, I get your meaning. You can't setup a cloud mining operation on Jool and then return to the spaceport or switch control to another flight.

On the other hand, is that confirmed for planets other than Kerbin?

[NoMrBond]

I don't like the idea of Karbonite existing as a solid, liquid, AND gas.

Ice, water and steam, they're all water in different phases. Water can also be split for the cryogenic fuel mix H₂ and O₂

Just because they're all 'Karbonite' doesn't mean they're all exactly the same, different environments (temperatures and pressures) can make molecules behave in vastly different ways

Within our own solar system we have planets which snow metal, gently rain foot wide drops methane or have glaciers of ammonia. Space is an amazing place.

[RoverDude]

It seems that the release planned for the weekend will add the ability to collect Karbonite from Jool's atmosphere, but is there any ETA on when it will be possible to collect karbonite from the ocean?

This weekend, if I get a part in time. Otherwise, this weekend and I'll adapt something at low efficiency. Stock ORS.

Having only read the first few pages and not tried the mod out yet, here are my immediate thoughts.

1. This is an awesome idea, and looks like it could potentially turn into the robust resource system that I always hoped Kethane would turn into.

2. I love the idea of basing it all on openness and interoperability. That's a major thing I haven't liked about Kethane, that it's its own separate thing and doesn't really integrate well with other mods.

3. I like the idea of requiring some kind of detection mechanic to find where the ore is before being able to mine it.

4. I don't like the idea of Karbonite existing as a solid, liquid, AND gas. I totally get it for reasons of simplicity, but I'd really love to see added realism/gameplay by splitting each form into different resources -- perhaps even having unique/multiple resources on each planet -- each having different efficiency, efficacy, and value. Granted, that's not particularly useful right now since there's basically only two fuel types in the game, but maybe that could change in the future...Or maybe at some point this could integrate with Real Fuels?

There's no reason it has to exist in all three phases, it can remain a solid and yet be found in all three environments. It can be found in large veins in the ground, it can be dissolved in small amounts in the ocean, and it can exist as a particulate in the air.

Something like gold. It can be mined in large quantities in the ground, it can be extracted from seawater, and could exist as a particulate (e.g. gold dust) in the air.

Latter is probably more dead on Also taking into account different gravities, environments, etc. Staying out of multiple resources for now, mods are free to add this.

Are you sure about that? I just did a quicksave while flying my plane and it worked fine. Crashed, hit quickload, and there was my plane flying again.

quick save -yes swich to other vehicle - NO if something go into atmosfere more than 2.3km from ur active vessel is vanished end of story only thinks that can do it they must be landed

if u wana absorb fram jool atmosphere u need to fluby and stabilize orbit outside of atmosfere( u could do it just outside so delta v needed will be fractial and u will earn it easly from karbonite)

Correct - less a save and more a switch/rails issue.

Hey, it seem I missed that thread.

Something is annoying me a bit. Why does it have to be the "A cheerful, license friendly alternative to Kethane!" ?

Yes, Kethane license is really restrictive and I m not a fan of that either, but if your mod is good do you really have to bash an other mod to prove it ? Do you really have to surf on the Majiir hate to have it stand out ?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and what I see in the first post. Damn nice that a mod use ORS more.

But you don't need the Kethane bashing for it to be a good mod

I concur, actually. It may be time to just let Karbonite be itself, and not "Not Kethane".

I think the OP title was made around the time of the ModStats controversy when people were happy and eager to find something like 'Not Kethane'. RoverDude has said the actual release will have a conventional title/KSP version/date etc so I guess at the moment, the thread title is more of a legacy thing than an actual 'official' title.

That said, now the ModStats controversy has pretty much run its course, a title change along the lines of 'Community-driven ISRU - mining and refining raw resources to fuel!' wouldn't go amiss, I will grant you that.

Had switched out the intro before, will update the title. I do kinda have to keep the 'difference between this and Kethane' bit, because the sheer number of times I have to deal with 'why don't you just integrate with Kethane' is a bit tiring.

(Edit)

What I will be kinda clear on tho, and do (slightly) take offense to is the accusation of 'bashing' or 'riding a wave of hate'. I can dislike a license, and dislike privacy invasion, and have not made any secret about this. But that's a very, very far cry from disliking a person. Less a 'wave of hate' and more of a wave of 'oh crap... the one tool I needed to get fuel now has something I really don't like mixed in it... Guess it's time to make a second choice'. Simple as that.

Edited July 30, 2014 by RoverDude

[DMagic]

The augers never animated. Long ago I made a MM config that created sparks when the auger was extracting ore, but it uses the KethaneParticleEmitter module so that wouldn't work in this situation.

Do you mean this module: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/65364? There is no reason why it couldn't be included with Karbonite.

[goldenpsp]

So for Karbonite scanning, you just place the detector on any ship and you can instantly see all the hotspots on the map? Is this the final plan for resource scanning, or just a placeholder until a more realistic scanning option (like SCANsat) can be implemented?

Note that since SCANsat has ModStatistics included I assumed that Karbonite wouldn't want to rely on that mod as a resource scanning option...

You may want to at least skim the thread. Scansat has already added support for Karbonite.

[Smurfalot]

The only problem is you end up with very cluttered screens due to the way the part module works... or we are down to a whole rewrite.

A separate GUI for ORS related extraction/conversion might be in order.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/53961-0-23-5-HL-Mods-on-Curse

Should be very doable with HL Airships

Yep...that is what I am planning.

[RoverDude]

A separate GUI for ORS related extraction/conversion might be in order.

Yep...that is what I am planning.

Really a case of using ORS extractors for something beyond their purpose. Likely something I personally won't be tackling because I think we've landed in a good place, but folks are welcome to extend, fork, remix, and improve The best part is that we get to see what folks come up with, and pull in all of the best bits.

[Thomas988]

This looks very promising! Looking forward to seeing more from this mod!

[ThirdHorseman]

You may want to at least skim the thread. Scansat has already added support for Karbonite.

I've been following this mod from the beginning, and I know that SCANsat has support for it. You should read my post more closely, because that is not what I asked. What I asked is:

1) Do you actually need to scan the planet from orbit, or does simply putting the detector on a rover show you all the hotspots across the entire planet.

2) Is this going to be the final method for resource scanning in this mod or will some form of "only use the resources you've discovered" method like SCANsat or Kethane be implemented in the long-term?

I don't want to use SCANsat, but I'm not crazy about the "pop a detector on anything and suddenly see all resources across the planet" method. And since this mod was created so we could avoid using an existing mod that had ModStats, it seems silly to fall back on another mod that does include ModStats for resource scanning.

[Smurfalot]

I've been following this mod from the beginning, and I know that SCANsat has support for it. You should read my post more closely, because that is not what I asked. What I asked is:

1) Do you actually need to scan the planet from orbit, or does simply putting the detector on a rover show you all the hotspots across the entire planet.

2) Is this going to be the final method for resource scanning in this mod or will some form of "only use the resources you've discovered" method like SCANsat or Kethane be implemented in the long-term?

I don't want to use SCANsat, but I'm not crazy about the "pop a detector on anything and suddenly see all resources across the planet" method. And since this mod was created so we could avoid using an existing mod that had ModStats, it seems silly to fall back on another mod that does include ModStats for resource scanning.

1) From what I can tell you need to scan with SCANsat only if you want to have a map of the resource hotspot locations. You can detect from a rover, but the range is fairly limited (based on altitude I think) if you are detecting from orbit, you can see pretty much the whole planet.

2) ORS resources are "everywhere" only the concentrations vary. If you want high efficiency look for hotspots to set up your resource gathering, if you do not care about efficiency just set up anywhere with a flat spot.

3) ModStats with SCANsat or any other mod is not really an issue. It is harmless, but if you are paranoid you can opt out on start up or by changing a single line in a cfg from "false" to "true"-- after which you can delete the .dll if you want to be extra tin-foil paranoid about it. No big deal at all.

[neurotoxin]

@RoverDude

I just wanted to point out that the github link in the OP is incorrect. Its http://www.github/com/BobPalmer/Karbonite and it should be http://www.github.com/BobPalmer/Karbonite

Not a big deal obviously just a QoL issue for anyone wanting to use it. Nice work with this by the way.

[sidfu]

wouldnt it be better on trace elements have where when u refine karbonite that u get small ammounts?

[RoverDude]

I've been following this mod from the beginning, and I know that SCANsat has support for it. You should read my post more closely, because that is not what I asked. What I asked is:

1) Do you actually need to scan the planet from orbit, or does simply putting the detector on a rover show you all the hotspots across the entire planet.

2) Is this going to be the final method for resource scanning in this mod or will some form of "only use the resources you've discovered" method like SCANsat or Kethane be implemented in the long-term?

I don't want to use SCANsat, but I'm not crazy about the "pop a detector on anything and suddenly see all resources across the planet" method. And since this mod was created so we could avoid using an existing mod that had ModStats, it seems silly to fall back on another mod that does include ModStats for resource scanning.

1. Don't need to scan at all, you will see all of the hotspots.

2. Yes, this is how ORS works.

1) From what I can tell you need to scan with SCANsat only if you want to have a map of the resource hotspot locations. You can detect from a rover, but the range is fairly limited (based on altitude I think) if you are detecting from orbit, you can see pretty much the whole planet.

2) ORS resources are "everywhere" only the concentrations vary. If you want high efficiency look for hotspots to set up your resource gathering, if you do not care about efficiency just set up anywhere with a flat spot.

3) ModStats with SCANsat or any other mod is not really an issue. It is harmless, but if you are paranoid you can opt out on start up or by changing a single line in a cfg from "false" to "true"-- after which you can delete the .dll if you want to be extra tin-foil paranoid about it. No big deal at all.

RE your 3: Be nice. Be respectful. Seriuously. And I expect that with the rules have changed for mods, that behavior will be changed. I'd say that given Squad's position is not in favor of ModStat's current mode of operation, it is perfectly reasonable for people to want to ensure there is not a dependency on ModStats.

[RoverDude]

So the cloud harvester is done This required building out a new ORS module adapted from the KSPI bits. The downside is that it's more fun to play with this than code...

New release incoming.

[Smurfalot]

RE your 3: Be nice. Be respectful. Seriuously. And I expect that with the rules have changed for mods, that behavior will be changed. I'd say that given Squad's position is not in favor of ModStat's current mode of operation, it is perfectly reasonable for people to want to ensure there is not a dependency on ModStats.

It is certainly not my intention to be disrespectful, but all this vitriol and paranoia surrounding ModStats is completely unfounded.

However, if you are really that concerned, why not just ask technogeeky to not bundle it with SCANsat? Problem solved.

[RoverDude]

It is certainly not my intention to be disrespectful, but all this vitriol and paranoia surrounding ModStats is completely unfounded.

However, if you are really that concerned, why not just ask technogeeky to not bundle it with SCANsat? Problem solved.

I'll certainly ask. But I daresay that if it was unfounded, Squad would not have changed the rules

In any case. This is not a ModStats thread - I think that horse has already been taken out back and put down. This is a Karbonite thread. Oh... and Jool cloud harvesting with ram scoops is fun. I can't wait to try this with jet engines...

[Boomerang]

Hey, it seem I missed that thread.

Something is annoying me a bit. Why does it have to be the "A cheerful, license friendly alternative to Kethane!" ?

Yes, Kethane license is really restrictive and I m not a fan of that either, but if your mod is good do you really have to bash an other mod to prove it ? Do you really have to surf on the Majiir hate to have it stand out ?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and what I see in the first post. Damn nice that a mod use ORS more.

But you don't need the Kethane bashing for it to be a good mod

Except that it's not really bashing. It *is* an alternative to Kethane that is much more open with regards to what can be done with it. Because Kethane has been *the* name in fairly simple resource mods, it's totally fair for an up-and-comer to compare itself to Kethane so that people know what they're looking at from the title.

It's good advertising, I think. "A cheerful, license friendly alternative to Kethane!" provides a lot more interest and information than, "Karbonite, the new resource mod!"

Also, Roverdude's been nothing but professional and complimentary towards Majiir. And you can be that way without avoiding recent controversy or handling contentious issues with kid gloves.

[Joshwoo70]

I'll certainly ask. But I daresay that if it was unfounded, Squad would not have changed the rules

In any case. This is not a ModStats thread - I think that horse has already been taken out back and put down. This is a Karbonite thread. Oh... and Jool cloud harvesting with ram scoops is fun. I can't wait to try this with jet engines...

Can we have a post for MM configs?

[RoverDude]

Except that it's not really bashing. It *is* an alternative to Kethane that is much more open with regards to what can be done with it. Because Kethane has been *the* name in fairly simple resource mods, it's totally fair for an up-and-comer to compare itself to Kethane so that people know what they're looking at from the title.

It's good advertising, I think. "A cheerful, license friendly alternative to Kethane!" provides a lot more interest and information than, "Karbonite, the new resource mod!"

Also, Roverdude's been nothing but professional and complimentary towards Majiir. And you can be that way without avoiding recent controversy or handling contentious issues with kid gloves.

Thanks

To be honest, at the end of the day kindness is free, So I've tweaked both title and content to retain the original point without (hopefully) making anyone feel bad. I expect at this point once Karbonite hits the streets it will gain some nice momentum

- - - Updated - - -

Can we have a post for MM configs?

What MM configs do you want? I'm confused?

[nismobg]

[Exception]: UnityException: Texture 'UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/ORS/Kerbin_Karbonite' is not readable, the texture memory can not be accessed from scripts. You can make the texture readable in the Texture Import Settings.

In debug log over Kerbin, duno if I should ignore it ?