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Newb questions: LV-1 contract, and bigger SRBs


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I'm pretty new to KSP. A few questions:

1. I have a contract to test an LV-1 engine in orbit. I'm not quite sure how to configure a rocket to do this. Should I use a sole LV-1 as my in-orbit stage engine? Should I use a whole bunch of LV-1s? I've seen pics of people using many LV-1s, but I'm not sure how to attach them -- with radial decouplers?

2. What do people use LV-1s for, anyway? I read that they are sometimes used for satellites, and I found a thread in which they're used in a small-engine challenge.

3. I'm still using the entry-level solid-rocket boosters. Are these enough to get me to the Mun (my next contract)? Should bigger SRBs be a top research priority?

4. My Mun contract doesn't require me to plant a flag. Should I try an unmanned mission?

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Mister Spock
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1. You must be insane if you try this ... the LV-1 has an Isp for Vac and Atm, that is far worse than that of most other engines ... and its low thrust mean that you would have to get a really really huge number in order to be able to get a TWR > 1 for all the fuel that you need to get into orbit, with a stage that uses purely LV-1s

2. Yes ... either attitude control for satellites, or to send ants flying around :D

3. Well, for one, s´SRBs have not the best Isp ... for the other, you need a dV of ~5-6 km/s to get to Mun (not included the trip back) ... for the third, you cannot control their thrust of SRBs while they are running ... so, nope, SRBs may be useful at the start, but they are not really a good solution to get to Mun (and hopefully back ;) )

4. That would be a solution if you already have scientific experiments (like Science jr., or the Goo container ... but remember to add antennas, in order to transit the scientific results back home. You would be missing out on EVA reports and surface samples that Kerbonauts could get you (and which give lots of science) but you could still do manned missions to Mun later

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I just stuck an LV-1 pointing upwards on top of a probe core and it contributed nothing to the mission apart from the test. The test parts don't have to be useful, they just have to be activated and small engines like the LV-1 have almost no penalty as dead weight on a mission.

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I've never used the LV-1 until i had to do the test with it. I launched it into orbit with a probe core and fuel tank and then tested it and used it to deorbit the vehicle. probably won't ever accept that mission again :P I would only recommend using it on ultra (ultra ultra?)light, 0g vehicles.

As for the SRBs. They are pretty good for getting you out of the atmosphere. Especially cause they are cheap and you tend to just chuck away your lower stages. Use them to lift your expensive liquid engines out of the atmosphere. They have very little control so i wouldn't recommend them for space maneuvers. Unless of your course you have a very long straight burn you need to do but even then there are much better engines.

There's a separate contract for planting a flag on the mun. I sent my first mun lander as just a probe. It landed and transmitted science back but now i have a beacon that i can target and help with future landings!!! :D

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I'm pretty new to KSP.

Welcome aboard!

1. I have a contract to test an LV-1 engine in orbit. I'm not quite sure how to configure a rocket to do this. Should I use a sole LV-1 as my in-orbit stage engine? Should I use a whole bunch of LV-1s? I've seen pics of people using many LV-1s, but I'm not sure how to attach them -- with radial decouplers?

With all part test contracts, first you have to meet all the specified conditions of speed, altitude, trajectory, etc., THEN you trigger the part to be tested. So in general, treat the part you're testing as payload. You get this payload into the required position using other parts of the rocket, then you trigger the test part once you're there. Depending on what the test part is, you might then be able to use it for the rest of the mission, or not.

In this case, because you're testing a small engine in orbit, you have the option of actually using the engine. But you'd have to use it as your de-orbit stage. That is, get to the required orbit, test the engine, then use the engine to land with. But as mentioned by others, the part you're testing doesn't have to actually do anything. You don't need fuel to test engines, or intakes, or anything else that actually makes them work. Just performing the test, without the engine actually working, is enough.

NOTE: Be sure to read the contract carefully because there are 2 ways of triggering parts for tests. One way says "normal staging" which is just what it sounds like. Slot the part into your staging list at the appropriate place so the rocket will be in the right position when you hit the space bar. The other method is to right-click on the part, bring up its context menu, and hit the "Run test" button. This is common with things like landing gear and small engines, and the LV-1 has a tendency to use this method a lot. If this is the case here, then it doesn't matter where the engine is in the staging list, and you can actually use it on the way up if you want to.

As to clustering a bunch of LV-1s (or any other engine) under 1 tank, you need the Cubic Octagonal Struts. Which, are WAY up towards the end of the tech tree, so this isn't an option for most of a career game.

2. What do people use LV-1s for, anyway? I read that they are sometimes used for satellites, and I found a thread in which they're used in a small-engine challenge.

They're good for moving small things. Probes, small scooters for 1 or 2 Kerbals on low-gravity planets, etc.

3. I'm still using the entry-level solid-rocket boosters. Are these enough to get me to the Mun (my next contract)? Should bigger SRBs be a top research priority?

Contracts have 2 dates, an expiration date (which is when the offer closes) and deadline (when you have to complete the work). Usually the deadline is 1 or 2 years in the future so there is no rush at all to complete your Mun contract. And if the contract says "Explore Mun", then it has no deadline at all. Bottom line is, you've got plenty of time to unlock a lot more parts before you try harder contracts.

4. My Mun contract doesn't require me to plant a flag. Should I try an unmanned mission?

In general, if the goal of the mission is to gather science, you always want to send a Kerbal. This is because Kerbals can get more science than probes. If you send a probe first, you leave points on the table which means that if you want to get those points, you'll have to send a 2nd rocket with a Kerbal. This is more expensive than just sending a Kerbal in the 1st place. But be sure even the Kerbal doesn't have to back. Send him in a ship with 3-4 each of Goos and Materials, plus every other science instrument at your disposal. Don't just put 1 of each on the ship or you'll leave a large amount of points behind.

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Thanks for the very helpful replies. I did succeed with my LV-1 mission, and I was surprised how much delta-V that tiny single engine supplied. With a small size-100 fuel tank, Kerbal Engineer Redux says it had more than 2000 m/s delta-V -- certainly plenty for de-orbiting. But I'd attached it to a lightweight probe, so maybe that's why. Anyway, after I completed the contract, I had a little fun experimenting with that little engine. First I circularized the orbit, then I made it larger, and I still had plenty of fuel left. It's got a solar panel on it, so I decided to leave it circling Kerbal for a while, just for the heck of it. It's a satellite that does nothing, as it has no science instruments aboard, and no docking ports, but I kinda like having it up there.

Geschosskopf, thanks for all the advice, especially that on manned versus unmanned. I take your point about science accumulation with a Kerbal. I hadn't thought that through. From a role-play perspective, though, I kinda like the idea of sending an unmanned probe first. Plus, I don't have to worry about bringing it back, whereas I'll feel obliged to bring a Kerbal home. So the rocket could be lighter and cheaper, maybe. I've never tried FlowerChild's "Better than Starting Manned" mod, but if/when he updates it to .24, I probably will give it a try, because I like the idea of progressing from unmanned to manned.

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1. I have a contract to test an LV-1 engine in orbit. I'm not quite sure how to configure a rocket to do this. Should I use a sole LV-1 as my in-orbit stage engine? Should I use a whole bunch of LV-1s? I've seen pics of people using many LV-1s, but I'm not sure how to attach them -- with radial decouplers?

I put a decoupler, LV-1, Oscar-B fuel tank, and smallest probe core on top of one of my other parts test missions. Overkill for what it did, I could have just put the engine upside down on top of the craft and not worried about it.

2. What do people use LV-1s for, anyway? I read that they are sometimes used for satellites, and I found a thread in which they're used in a small-engine challenge.

That's the extent of it for me. I use it for fine tuning satellite orbits because I can tweak the thrust down AND use minimum throttle. And I use it when I'm required to use it by "rules" such as challenges or contract completion.

3. I'm still using the entry-level solid-rocket boosters. Are these enough to get me to the Mun (my next contract)? Should bigger SRBs be a top research priority?

To be perfectly honest, I don't prioritize the bigger SRBs. They're more cost-efficient than liquid-fueled engines at the first stage, but beyond that, not so much, and with the current career mode balance, I usually ignore the SRBs and still swim in funds without exploiting the system.

4. My Mun contract doesn't require me to plant a flag. Should I try an unmanned mission?

Handy advice: Whenever you orbit or land someplace new, make a quick trip back to mission control, I think both of those open up new contracts.

Edited by Eric S
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Thanks for the very helpful replies. I did succeed with my LV-1 mission, and I was surprised how much delta-V that tiny single engine supplied.

Congratulations, you've just answered your own question and figured out why LV-1's are useful! You can get a a more technical explanation from the rocket equation. Using small, light engines keeps m1 (final mass) low, increasing the m0:m1 ratio, and increasing overall dV.

PS Welcome to the forums.

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Geschosskopf, thanks for all the advice, especially that on manned versus unmanned. I take your point about science accumulation with a Kerbal. I hadn't thought that through. From a role-play perspective, though, I kinda like the idea of sending an unmanned probe first. Plus, I don't have to worry about bringing it back, whereas I'll feel obliged to bring a Kerbal home. So the rocket could be lighter and cheaper, maybe. I've never tried FlowerChild's "Better than Starting Manned" mod, but if/when he updates it to .24, I probably will give it a try, because I like the idea of progressing from unmanned to manned.

At present, the stock tech tree isn't very hard to unlock. There is way more science available on just Mun and Minmus than you need to unlock the whole tree, so you can afford to leave points on the table there by using probes or crewed missions that don't bring back all the science, and STILL have everything unlocked before the 1st transfer window to Duna comes around. Or you can leave stuff behind on Mun and Minmus and get it from another planet for variety's sake.

HOWEVER, there are a host of modified tech trees out there. These add whole new and obscenely expensive tiers to the tree, and/or adjust costs of existing nodes, etc. And there aren't yet multiple biomes to speak off on anything outside the Kerbin system, so the amount of science you can get from other planets is very low in comparison to Mun and Minmus. Thus, if you play with mods that demand more science points and you don't also use the mod Custom Biomes to make the other planets more productive, you'll begrudge leaving any points behind on Mun and Minmus.

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Ah, I see. I suppose I could first gather some science with unmanned probes, and then return to the same biomes and get more with Kerbils? I guess that would be wasteful, in terms of funds. But would it "leave science points on the table"?

And yeah, I could see playing with mods that increase science costs, and thus the need to be more efficient about gathering science. I assume Interstellar is one such mod.

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Ah, I see. I suppose I could first gather some science with unmanned probes, and then return to the same biomes and get more with Kerbils? I guess that would be wasteful, in terms of funds. But would it "leave science points on the table"?

Not once you've done both missions. You won't get more science in one trip than you would splitting the same number of experiments between two trips. In fact, if the first mission unlocks more science parts, you might even get more science that way.

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Welcome Mr. Spock!

Interestingly, the career game is setup so that it's EASIER to send a Kerbal on a mission at the early stages of your tech tree progress, compared to sending an unmanned probe.

You see, you can send a Mk 1. capsule with a Kerbal an extremely long way and as long as you're not doing anything, you don't use up electrical power. A probe, OTOH, requires a continuous energy input. Try sending one to the Mun without solar panels and you'll see what I mean.

It's almost like they want us to send Kerbals out there to be stranded. Hey, the start screens for the game also suggest the same...

Edited by MajorThomas
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Thanks for your replies. Okay, you guys have convinced me to go manned! Yeah, Major Thomas, I notice that my probes do eat up electricity. I think it's fun to equip solar panels, so I don't really mind that, but if I'm really losing lots of science going unmanned, then I'll go manned. I'll save my unmanned obsession for the "Better Than Starting Manned" mod.

Thanks again. I'm really enjoying this game, by the way. I just spent a couple hours doing my first rendez-vous, and it was a hoot.

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Ah, I misunderstood. Until you get the Negative Gravioli Detector, manned orbital science will blow probe orbital science out of the water because EVA reports are the only experiment that's per-biome at low orbit altitudes, and manned surface science will blow probe surface science out of the water because surface samples are a huge amount of science, unless you get a mod that lets you do probe surface samples.

As for BTSM, I personally found that while it was enjoyable once, it actually had lower replayability than my normal mix of mods for me because it's all about how you overcome a few specific challenges. I found that my missions in BTSM had less variation because of that.

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Ah, I hear ya about BTSM, Eric. I'm going to want to try it once, in any case; I really like the idea of it. So what mods do you play? Some of these mods seem like separate games in themselves -- Remote Tech 2 and Interstellar, for example.

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FAR (probably switching to NEAR, I don't fly enough space planes to feel the need for FAR)+the mod that balances atmospheric ISP so that you don't get cheaper launches.

Deadly Reentry Continued or whatever the current incarnation is.

TACLS: I've heard they've rebalanced the capsules or life support electricity requirements, in 0.23, the Mk-1 capsule with no batteries would need to deorbit before it completed an orbit so that it wouldn't run out of power and kill Jeb.

RemoteTech 2: Not sure if I'll keep this one, I really like it, but almost every mission took more launches for communications infrastructure than for the actual mission.

Interstellar: I'm still learning how to use the higher end engines from this, for now I'm mostly just enjoying the deeper tech tree.

Procedural Fairings (though I try to keep things from looking too silly).

SCANSat

That's about it for the ones that change the game, the rest are just support mods, like Kerbal Engineer Redux, Editor Extensions, Kerbal Alarm Clock.

Before stock tweakables, the combination of DR and RT2 made for interesting probe return missions because it was hard to keep in communication with a probe long enough to deploy parachutes after reentry heat stopped being an issue.

I'm probably going to try EVE and some of the other improved visuals stuff soon too, and I'll also probably add something to increase prices and maybe reduce science returns. Might turn off reverts and quickloads, depending on what level of challenge I find after the other stuff. I might also try using a few other tech trees.

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Ah, I see. I suppose I could first gather some science with unmanned probes, and then return to the same biomes and get more with Kerbils? I guess that would be wasteful, in terms of funds. But would it "leave science points on the table"?

Some points just aren't worth bothering with unless you're totally ..... For instance, Kerbin itself has tons of different biomes but it's a pain (and now also expensive) to visit them all until you unlock most of the airplane parts, and by then they're not worth doing because they pay chump change in science. Plus, science spent chasing airplane parts mean you have less to spend on rockets and advanced science instruments. So I pretty much ignore them all and head for space. I tend to get most of the equatorial ones anyway (at least with crew, EVA, and surface samples) when returning from other missions.

Once you're in space, as Eric mentioned, sometimes Mission A will unlock so new science-gathering tool that makes it worthwhile to go back with a repeat mission. However, there are some limits on how useful that is because not all gizmos work in the same places (thermometers don't work in high orbit, barometers don't work in vacuum), and gizmos that all work in the same place don't all work the same way there (EVA reports and gravity scans work per biome in low orbit whereas everything else just works once in low orbit). So let's say you've already orbited Mun with just a Kerbal, Goo, and Material Bays. You get back and you unlock the thermometer. Do you send another mission to Mun orbit just to take its temperature? No! Not enough points to bother with by itself. Instead, put 2 thermometers on the Mun lander you'll be sending out next. Use 1 in orbit as you pass by and the other on the ground, along with the Kerbal, Goo, and Materials. Thermometers weigh literally nothing and are reasonably cheap so you can carry a lot of them if you want to.

And yeah, I could see playing with mods that increase science costs, and thus the need to be more efficient about gathering science. I assume Interstellar is one such mod.

Yeah, Interstellar definitely adds new science tiers. But there are also other mods add no parts, just rearrange and rescale the tech tree.

On the bright side, however, there are a bunch of other mods out there that add more science to gather. These can be fun in their own right just so you're doing something different. I mean, it's 50-odd Earth days from the start of the game until the 1st transfer window for Duna happens. You can either be productive during all that time or you can warp through it. If you're productive, you can get into a real grind of repeated landings on Mun and Minmus, unless you have some of these "new science" mods.

DMagic Orbital Science adds a bunch of new science parts for orbiters, landers, and rovers, so you can do different things with them, although really they mostly just increase your yield for missions you're already doing. The good thing, however, is that they're all 100% transmittable so aren't penalized for being on probes, and some of them work per biome in orbit.

SCANsat has tools to map planets in a variety of ways, and each of them pays you a little science for doing it (also 100% transmittable). And of course you get biome maps of the planets, so you can then better exploit things that pay per biome in orbit, and land in biomes you haven't yet pillaged. This is especially useful when combined with Custom Biomes, which adds multiple biomes to all the planets Squad hasn't yet worked on.

Station Science adds a bunch of station modules that essentially let you construct orbital science factories. Basically, it gives you an actual purpose for building stations. It creates a slow but constant trickle of science just for existing, plus you can send up other modules that perform 1-off experiments. Then there's the Orbital Materials Science mod, which is an extension of (and requires) Station Science, which adds even more experiments. And of course Interstellar softens the blow of its massive science costs by also providing an orbital science factory or 2 of its own.

Edited by Geschosskopf
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I just stuck an LV-1 pointing upwards on top of a probe core and it contributed nothing to the mission apart from the test. The test parts don't have to be useful, they just have to be activated and small engines like the LV-1 have almost no penalty as dead weight on a mission.

Yes, put it so it point up or to the side, if you test the part with run test they don't even need fuel, you might get missions to test jet engines on mun.

lv1 is mostly for small satellites, an small probe with a two oscar tanks a couple of solar panels, the 48-7S is the other option and is a bit overkill.

Larger SRB is more cost effective and last longer, however I would not use only SRB

Flag planting require an kerbal, they are also the only ones who can do eva and surface samples.

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1) Answered already plenty well

2) I don't find them usefull for much at all, just little gimmicks.

Yes, they are lightweight... but their ISP sucks, hard. But that's not so bad if you can decrease dry mass by a larger % than you decrease ISP, then for sufficiently low dV needs, you end up using less fuel (and for slightly higher dV needs, you can still build the craft lighter, even if it consumes a bit more fuel in the end, which are important considerations for reusable vs single use designs).

*However* the tiny fuel tanks are terrible. The Full:dry ratio of the 1.25 and 2.5 meter tanks is 9:1 for the SLS parts (3.5 meter? I forget), its 8.2:1

For the toroidal, its a pathetic 5.44:1, and for the oscar, its an appalling 5.24:1 ratio.

Bad ISP combined with bad mass fraction, means I'd much rather use a 48-7s.

If you use a good mass fraction tank, you have so much fuel you want to use a higher ISP engine. There are only very narrow cirumstances where the LV-1 is preferable to a 48-7s. Its so narrow that I consider it gimmicky. Also for small, low thrust cases, I'd be tempted to go with ion propulsion

3) SRBs are really only good for your first stage. You certainly can't land on the mun with them, you need a throttleable engine to do that, but you could use a lot of SRBs, and the default liquid engines and tanks as upper stages to do it.

4) it depends, you will want to go manned eventually. Personally, I had docking ports before I landed (I did a flyby with free return trajectory for my first flight into orbit, but that cut it close and I had to get out and push :P ). So I had an orbiting fuel depot, and just landed, took science (evas and surface samples), and rendevou'd with my fuel depot, got tons of science. Later I unlocked gravity and seismic scans, and sent an unmanned probe to fil out the science - no need to collect samples or EVA again.

If you send a probe now, you'll need to send a manned mission later to fill out your science. Maybe by that point you'll have grav and seismic scans, and its just a probe+ manned mission to finish out the biome.

Either way, unless you do a lot of other stuff for science, plan on returning to the first biomes you visit after you've unlocked more tech. If you go manned now, you can go unmanned later, if you go unmanned now, you'll have to come back manned later (assuming you're interested in the science, and haven't maxed out the tech tree with other science sources)

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I'm pretty new to KSP. A few questions:

1. I have a contract to test an LV-1 engine in orbit. I'm not quite sure how to configure a rocket to do this. Should I use a sole LV-1 as my in-orbit stage engine? Should I use a whole bunch of LV-1s? I've seen pics of people using many LV-1s, but I'm not sure how to attach them -- with radial decouplers?

2. What do people use LV-1s for, anyway? I read that they are sometimes used for satellites, and I found a thread in which they're used in a small-engine challenge.

3. I'm still using the entry-level solid-rocket boosters. Are these enough to get me to the Mun (my next contract)? Should bigger SRBs be a top research priority?

4. My Mun contract doesn't require me to plant a flag. Should I try an unmanned mission?

Thanks in advance.

1. is just a part test really. Either find a use for them in orbit, or just plonk one in a suitable position on your craft ^-^. You dont even need to have a use for it, it doesn't even need to propel anything. All you have to do is run it, under the specific conditions :-).

2. I find them very useful for small things. To be honest, i use the LV-1R more, but they're nice if you need small bits of fuel that dont need much thrust. I have a series of small communication satellites weighing under one tonne each. For these i'll usually attach either a can of xenon and an ion engine. It has a low specific impulse, so i usually dont use it if i can use something bigger. Ion engines have awesome specific impulse, but my probes dont usually carry enough batteries or solar panels to keep the engine going for more than a minute at a time, especially on the night side of planets. So i use two radial LV-1R's, cause i always like having some movement options. Even the smaller probe in-line engine is just a bit too big sometimes - lots of power, and it runs through the standard mini grey fuel tank i bring rather quickly.

Also, awesome use for LV-1®'s: Rovers! I put one or two on the back of my rover as an added boost, cause going 10-15m/s is kinda boring sometimes.

3. Solid rocket boosters are generally recommended only for Kerbin stages, usually your first. Most of my ascent crafts dont even have solid boosters, so higher-level boosters aren't a necessity at all. I suggest you instead head for the Skipper 2m in-line engine to get your heavier crafts off the ground.

4. If you bring a Kerbal, you can get more science from the moon ^-^. So unless you really dont wanna bother brining a Mk 1 pod, i advise you bring a Kerbal.

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Thanks for all the further replies. OK, I'll try sending a Kerbil to the Mun. I don't have docking ports yet, so I can't set up an orbiting refueling station, which might mean I end up doing a flyby. But even that will generate some science, as I understand it.

Yeah, Interstellar definitely adds new science tiers. But there are also other mods add no parts, just rearrange and rescale the tech tree.

On the bright side, however, there are a bunch of other mods out there that add more science to gather. These can be fun in their own right just so you're doing something different. I mean, it's 50-odd Earth days from the start of the game until the 1st transfer window for Duna happens. You can either be productive during all that time or you can warp through it. If you're productive, you can get into a real grind of repeated landings on Mun and Minmus, unless you have some of these "new science" mods.

How does one know when transfer windows open? If I set Duna as a target, will the data in Kerbal Engineer Redux give me a clue? It has info on phase angles and such. I wondered this as I was planning my first rescue mission. I ended up pretty much on the opposite side of Kerbin from the stranded Kerbil, so it took a long time to "catch up" to him in a slightly lower orbit.

DMagic Orbital Science adds a bunch of new science parts for orbiters, landers, and rovers, so you can do different things with them... (snip)

SCANsat has tools to map planets in a variety of ways, and each of them pays you a little science for doing it (also 100% transmittable). ... This is especially useful when combined with Custom Biomes, which adds multiple biomes to all the planets Squad hasn't yet worked on.

Station Science adds a bunch of station modules that essentially let you construct orbital science factories. Basically, it gives you an actual purpose for building stations. ... Then there's the Orbital Materials Science mod, which is an extension of (and requires) Station Science, which adds even more experiments. ....

These all sound like great ways to add replayability and depth. I'm already running some "utility" mods -- Kerbal Engineer Redux, Final Frontier, Chatterer, PreciseNode -- so I'm familiar with how mods work. I'll add some of the mods you describe after this first run-through. I also like the sound of the communications network in Remote Tech 2. Lots to look forward to!

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Thanks for all the further replies. OK, I'll try sending a Kerbil to the Mun. I don't have docking ports yet, so I can't set up an orbiting refueling station, which might mean I end up doing a flyby. But even that will generate some science, as I understand it.

You don't need a fuel station to do Mun landings :).

But as to flybys, there are 2 orbital zones, high and low (think 50km is the dividing line). You can do all your stuff in both zones. If you also stop into a polar orbit at low altitude, you can spend a week or 2 there continually doing EVA reports as you pass over each biome.

How does one know when transfer windows open? If I set Duna as a target, will the data in Kerbal Engineer Redux give me a clue? It has info on phase angles and such. I wondered this as I was planning my first rescue mission. I ended up pretty much on the opposite side of Kerbin from the stranded Kerbil, so it took a long time to "catch up" to him in a slightly lower orbit.

I'm not sure KER does this but Kerbal Alarm Clock certainly does. You can create alarms for transfer windows.

There's also the Alexmoon website but it seems to be down at the moment.

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