Non-Overpowered Biomes - Decreasing Science with each Biome

[SkyRex94]

So i think the Biomes are currently way overpowered, espeacially when there will be more in the future.

You can finish Tier 8 in Tech Tree in Kerbin SOI alone (Don't know if also Tier 9, would be 9000 extra).

So if every Planet is about to get Biomes they could either make the Techs far more expensive for Science or decrease the general amount of Science everywhere.

Or they could do it this way: The greatest Step and the most new discoveries are made on the First Encounter/First Landing in a New World.

So you should get exactly the amount of science as it is now for the First Biome you do Science in/Land in. But you get lets say only 50 % of that for the second biome(So for an Experiment-type, where you've got a Report for another Biome of that Body already). And so on, 3th maybe 40% , 4th 30% , 5th 25 %, 6th 20% , 7th 17% , 8th 14%, 9th and more 10 %.

That way it would be rewarded to discover new Worlds and explore the Unknown but simultanously you can get more Science for further discoveries on known Bodies too. Which is more realistic and more fun Gameplay-wise, as people are encouraged to Explore new Worlds but also Rewarded if they want to dig deeper on a favorite place.

What do you think?

[Sky_walker]

You know what's the weird part?

In 0.24 they added science rewards through contracts...

...and at the same time they decreased the amount of science needed to research an entire tree down to 10 098 from 10 348 in 0.23.5.

(or at least - guys at KSP wiki did the math and that's the result they got)

[Renegrade]

So you should get exactly the amount of science as it is now for the First Biome you do Science in/Land in. But you get lets say only 50 % of that for the second biome(So for an Experiment-type, where you've got a Report for another Biome of that Body already). And so on, 3th maybe 40% , 4th 30% , 5th 25 %, 6th 20% , 7th 17% , 8th 14%, 9th and more 10 %.

I agree with this concept wholeheartedly. This would also reduce the "biome grind fatigue" issue, and would also help as other worlds get biomes added.

I think we'd have to work on those numbers a bit, but they're the right sort of idea.

[Clockwork_werewolf]

Yea I like this idea.

The first Mun landing you do should reward you with a lot of science. New players often struggle with getting there and back safely so it should be rewarded. I would say go with first biome 100%, second 50%, third 25%, forth 12.5% ect.

I would also add that every plant a flag on the Mun and transmit data from orbit should have a lowering value. Not like the biomes as repeat business is all that's keeping my cost x 8 space industry alive but still reduced every time. Maybe 80% of old value so first 30k, second 24k, third 19.2k, forth 15.3k ect. It would still be enough money that new players will realise there is a point to leaving a probe or kerbal up there and for it to be cost affective to send up a second craft. But the diminishing returns would mean that players went after new planets rather than grinding science from orbit missions.

Another option for the grinding science from orbit could be that you only get payed is there is actual science to return. New science items and labs would have more of a purpose then.

[StuntMax]

I'm with you.

Ok for the biomes, but there are some details that are frankly ridiculous.. 3 biomes in the range of KSP, plus the shores and the grassland you can reach by WALKING your kerbonaut there? Come on!

And the picometric badlands biome? I spent HOURS triyng to pin down that mo.fu. from the orbit, let alone landing here...

And seriously... 15 biomes on the Mun! 15!

My idea is:

- The number of biomes should be seriously nerfed. No more than 5-7 biomes per body. And NO BS biomes like "runway" or "launchpad". A couple of "plain" biomes near the equator for first landings, a mountain biome to test landing skills in rough terrain, a polar biome to force the player on a polar orbit and not the same old boring equatorial orbit, and a small one to check if one can land in a specific place. That's all.

- Kerbin biomes should give out no science at all for surface experiments. Oh great, Jeb took back a temperature scan and a chunk of grass from the backyard, let's do SCIENCE!!! Hey, Bill got a handful of gravel from the shore 300 m away, HOW EXCITING!

[Sky_walker]

And the picometric badlands biome? I spent HOURS triyng to pin down that mo.fu. from the orbit, let alone landing here...

Ekhm... Badlands biome is fairy large. I never had any problems getting there.

- The number of biomes should be seriously nerfed. No more than 5-7 biomes per body. And NO BS biomes like "runway" or "launchpad".

These are made for new players to learn the game.

Kerbin biomes should give out no science at all for surface experiments.

I agree that the rewards could be smaller, however discovering that ground samples give you science is part of the learning experience.

TBH: I'm fine with biomes as they are. Research tree on the other hand.... could easily have twice as many nodes as it does now (some nodes have so many different techs put together that they don't make any sense at all) and the amount of science should be increased at least times 2 if not more. This should increase career playtime by a good 4 times and give people a reason to land on another planets.

Perhaps then Devs would also get around adding missing biomes on the other planets... at least Duna

[Laie]

So i think the Biomes are currently way overpowered, espeacially when there will be more in the future.

You can finish Tier 8 in Tech Tree in Kerbin SOI alone (Don't know if also Tier 9, would be 9000 extra).

You can finish the tree in Kerbin SOI, and don't have to be too thorough to do so. After my "Mop up the Mun" mission in .235 I had the tech tree filled out and a couple thousand points to spare. I could as well have skipped the last four or five biomes.

So if every Planet is about to get Biomes they could either make the Techs far more expensive for Science or decrease the general amount of Science everywhere.

What do you think?

You seem to start from the assumption that there hast to be a "mid-game" where people already fly big missions, but are not allowed to have all technology. I don't agree with that premise. IMO, it makes sense that the player doesn't have to visit every biome on every body.

I cleaned out Mun & Minums in large part because I thought I had to, not because I actually enjoyed it. Designing a Mission that could touch all Mun biomes in one go was an interesting challenge (for me, at the time), actually flying it was not. After the fourth or fifth landing, it devolved into work.

Ekhm... Badlands biome is fairy large. I never had any problems getting there.

Yes and no. It's not a contigous(?) area, but dotted with other biomes. Getting it for EVA from Orbit can be quite frustrating, and landing too, if you're unlucky.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Laie

[Clockwork_werewolf]

Considering how useless Kerbin experiments are they are worth far less in science than the effort required to get them. They let beginners get the 20-30 science to unlock 2 techs and that's about it unless you fly or rocket off to other parts. Rocketing now costs money and flying takes so much time that anyone is welcome to the 10 science for half and hours flying. Leave the Kerbin science and consider is testing. In a real life example the Russians once tested a rover's life sensing equipment on earth and found nothing. This was very important data meaning the sensor was useless. This "science" data would let them design a better tester just like unlocking tech tree tech.

Also the number of biomes don't need to be nerfed if the value of each becomes less. Making the reward reduce encourages people to find new sources, limiting the rewards FORCES people to get new sources whether they can do it or not. This causes people to get "stuck" and is not a good game Mechanic. If you can easily adapt you have no problem, if you can't then boredom is much better than being stuck for ever and giving up.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Clockwork_werewolf

[SkyRex94]

You can finish the tree in Kerbin SOI, and don't have to be too thorough to do so. After my "Mop up the Mun" mission in .235 I had the tech tree filled out and a couple thousand points to spare. I could as well have skipped the last four or five biomes.

I know. But i meant Tier 9 . Finishing Tier 8 is finishing the Stock Tech Tree, thats what i've said. Tier 9 are the stock-implemented but unused Nodes for Mods(like Automation, Robotics, Experimental Rocketry etc.) and there are 9 Tier 9 Nodes for 1000 each. What i've said is that i don't know if there is 9000 EXTRA Science in Kerbin SOI after getting all the Stock Tech.

[Laie]

Considering how useless Kerbin experiments are they are worth far less in science than the effort required to get them. They let beginners get the 20-30 science to unlock 2 techs and that's about it unless you fly or rocket off to other parts. Rocketing now costs money and flying takes so much time [...]

Why do you insist on making a maximum profit on every mission? After rescuing your next Kerbal, just touch down wherever it pleases you. Even though you don't recover the full cost, you're still making a profit from the rescue. Or, you may consider to actually fund a science mission. You've probably got more money than you need anyway, why not *spend* some of it? You know, for science?

I know. But i meant Tier 9.

Aaah, I didn't get that. I had one of these nodes researched and 7000 points in the bank before I left Kerbin SOI for the first time. I also had some unfinished business: gravity scans can be done in low&high orbit over every biome, and I brought home only a few of these. Some back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that this might, barely, bring in another 1000 points.

TLDR: you can certainly finish all nodes but one; the last one is a close call.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Laie

[Clockwork_werewolf]

Why do you insist on making a maximum profit on every mission? After rescuing your next Kerbal, just touch down wherever it pleases you. Even though you don't recover the full cost, you're still making a profit from the rescue. Or, you may consider to actually fund a science mission. You've probably got more money than you need anyway, why not *spend* some of it? You know, for science?

Because I'm running at x8 base cost now. That's 4200 for a basic 1 man pod (with no parachute or anything).

For a new player they will be very inefficient and I have seen them burn all their money or use 200k for a failed mun mission. This is why they need some easy but boring tech, for in case they need it. Most will not and can just ignore it. Also the biomes are not applied to every experiment meaning only a few of them get all the biomes and new players do not know about all the biomes, where to find them or even that they exist so a health bit of extra is fine when it takes three of them to get a tier 2 (15-20) science tech node.

Also I would like to make it clear I don't bother hovering up all the Kerbin science, I just think it's good that it is there for those that need it.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Clockwork_werewolf

[Sky_walker]

Tiny request: Can we please, stop mixing modded game with a stock game?

It's a topic about suggestions to the game, so let's stick with that - stuff related to the mods should be kept within Add-ons board. Otherwise you only introduce needless confusion.

[Clockwork_werewolf]

I apologize if it seemed like that was my intent. I was answering "Why do you insist on making a maximum profit on every mission?". It also works as a difficulty modifier which I feel makes it as hard as some new players find it.

Experienced players often don't realise that new players can find all of the information it has taken them ten's or hundreds of hours to learn can be overwhelming. Also an experienced player can often do the same thing as a new player for a quarter or less of the cost. This is also why I felt it worth mentioning my cost increase. It makes me struggle as much as some new players.

[CaptRobau]

I could get behind diminishing returns on science, but I think the main problem really is that there are so many experiments you can do at the same time and many of them are biome-specific. If you give people such a wide range of experiments to do, they'll probably do them all because they'll feel like they're wasting a trip if they don't get the maximum benefit out of it. The game should be as free of cringe-inducing situations such as this as possible: 'get a different EVA report when on a ladder then when you are on the surface 1 meter below'. By limiting the situations in which experiments can perform science, you'll make people less prone to subconsciously want to grind. It would also help in making each experiment feel more unique.

Ideally each experiment would only be possible in one of the three main situations (Surface, Flying, Space) and biome-specific in only one of the subsituations (NearSpace, HighSpace, etc.) to maximize uniqueness and reduce grindiness of science. Some examples:

-Mystery Goo only on the surface of atmospheric planets

-Science Jr. only in space

-Atmospheric Science only when flying (over atmospheric planets naturally) and only biome-specific when flying low

[ethernet]

I'd go a little further and also eliminate repeat experiments within a given biome. It's simply busywork to do an experiment multiple times at the same location; it has no gameplay value. But then use the same diminishing returns code that currently applies to same-biome repeats, and make it apply to different-biome experiments. Set the total amount available per experiment, so you'd get something on the order of x3 the base Science after doing, say, 5 repeats at different biomes.

[Guest]

I actually think the current amount of science gain is intended and one of the reasons would be the future interchangeable currencies. Excessive science could give players a revenue stream for funds and rep outside of contracts, which is a good thing, IMO.

[pellinor]

I like the idea of diminishing returns on biomes. An experiment in the first biome gives x% of the available science for the experiment on the current body. The second biome will give x% of what is left, an so on. The number x would depend on the number of biomes, being lower if there are more of them.

This way you are rewarded for visiting several biomes, but don't need to grind all of them for getting most of the science. So the first Mun landing gives great rewards, but you would not want to come back 15 times just to learn that the last corner that was left basically looks like all the others.

Edited July 24, 2014 by pellinor

[ThePan]

Good suggestion, I like that idea.

You can finish Tier 8 in Tech Tree in Kerbin SOI alone (Don't know if also Tier 9, would be 9000 extra).

You can finish the whole tech tree alone with mun and minmus.

Scott manley managed to do so with just 2 launches.

[LostElement]

Yeah, you can unlock everything in the tech tree in two goes.

[SkyRex94]

Good suggestion, I like that idea.

You can finish the whole tech tree alone with mun and minmus.

Scott manley managed to do so with just 2 launches.

Yeah, you can unlock everything in the tech tree in two goes.

So again for you two. I know that. and clarified it just at the end of the first page, if you read it? Here again:

I know. But i meant Tier 9 . Finishing Tier 8 is finishing the Stock Tech Tree, thats what i've said. Tier 9 are the stock-implemented but unused Nodes for Mods(like Automation, Robotics, Experimental Rocketry etc.) and there are 9 Tier 9 Nodes for 1000 each. What i've said is that i don't know if there is 9000 EXTRA Science in Kerbin SOI after getting all the Stock Tech.

[pellinor]

Actually someone already did the whole (stock) tree in one launch. Love that video.

Edited July 24, 2014 by pellinor

[SkyRex94]

So i did a little Research. Stock till Tier 8 (Meaning unlocking ALL Stock Parts) needs somewhat about 11000 Science. With the Added Tier 9 we come to ca. 20000 Science which is nearly the doubled amount. Try that with one Launch.

I referred to Tier 9 because it is the MOST Science you can Spend without using TreeLoader.

For Example i have installed Kethane, but i changed quite a few Configs to make it harder/more realistic (Posted that in Addon Affairs if interested), and besides changed some required Tech to get all the Tier 9 Nodes without having to install another Mod, so i have more Science to spend on.

Apparently it seems even 20000 is'nt quite so much, because i'm now missing 500 Points more to finish all in my current save and i've only been to Kerbin, 3 Mun Biomes, Everything from Minmus, Duna and Ike and some Transmissions from Eve and Gilly.

The Mission from Eve is coming back right know having around 30 Science Reports Loaded and another Mission is on an Encounter Trajectory with Jool already, so there Gazillion of Points to come.

Does anyone know how much Total Science you can get from Everywhere?

And is there a way without a Mod to create one more single node in the Tech Tree?

I would like a "You've seen it all"- Node, without any Parts to unlock, but costing ALL the Science (minus Stock Tree), so you've Explored it all.

With some Contracts yielding Science you don't even need to get everything.

[SunJumper]

A way to do this would be to allocate a proportion of science to the body, and a proportion of science to the biome.

For the sake of argument, imagine an experiment that nets 100 science (halving each iteration), divided by 70% body 30% Biome. The first experiment nets you 100, the second nets you 50. Repeating on another biome would net you 30+17.5 science. The full thirty points is from repeating on another biome, the 17.5 comes from repeating the experiment a third time on the same body. You get 47.5 science from that. You repeat at the same location, and get another 15+8.75 or 23.75 science. And this goes on until you have exhausted the science on the body or gotten bored.