Why I hate 64-bit

[Vilheim]

x64 is something that has been heading down the pipeline for quite some time, and really is a necessary addition. Will this split some mods that have dependence on the version? Yes, it will. But fact of the matter is that most mods will actually have zero dependence on whether you are running an x64 or an x32 version of the game.

Other than mods, I fail to see how having an x64 version and an x32 version will cause any sort of division within the community. And frankly, that's just up to the modders, not Squad, in terms of how much time they are willing to put in to make their mods work on both versions, should their mod be dependent upon the version. If a modder doesn't want to code for x32 anymore, tough. It's his/her mod, and he/she doesn't owe you anything.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Vilheim
Edited for correctness

[Guest]

Also, Mihara's mods seems to run on 32bit. In general, I don't see why you'd write a plugin in such a way it can only run on one or the other. He tests his mods on 64bit, because it's what he has. I'll test my mods on 32bit only until I get a new computer, because I'm simply not going to dual-boot just for KSP (or bother my technophobic mother who still runs an outdated, 32bit system ). It won't divide the community, at least IMO. It might cause some mods to "require" 64bit because of oversized textures crashing the 32bit version, but there are ways of mitigating that with other mods (though really, Squad should fix their moronic texture loader. It's badly written and no amount of bits will fix this).

Edited August 1, 2014 by Guest

[cpast]

You quoted me out of context. I was referring to mods: If a mod worked on Windows, it also worked on OS X and Linux. That was the beauty of a platform-agnostic game. Now mods are being compiled specifically against particular versions (64-bit or 32-bit) and aren't going to work across platforms.

No they aren't. Mods are compiled for any CPU; plugin DLLs do not have either x86 or x86-64 instructions, and instead have CIL/MSIL (which is then run by Mono). While it is possible to put in the header of a .NET/Mono program that it only targets 32-bit or 64-bit, it is normally only done for executables, not DLLs. Even then, it's not that it actually uses native instructions, it's that the header says "always run as 32-bit" or "only run as 64-bit" (Any CPU is "run as 32-bit on a 32-bit system, 64-bit on a 64-bit system); this is just because loading native code libraries (which *do* have to be compiled for x86 only or x86-64 only) only works on a process of the same type.

Furthermore, any mod that did use x86 or x86-64 instructions (as opposed to CIL/MSIL) would already be incompatible with any operating system other than the one for which it was compiled. Any plugin for which that is not the case uses an intermediate language, and then there's pretty much no reason whatsoever to compile a DLL to anything other than "Any CPU" (the executable file is different, but plugins don't have that).

[GusTurbo]

I feel like you're looking at this the wrong way. Squad was trying to bring the community something it had been asking for for a long time. If the problem is that some modders will only use 64 bit, then your grievance is with the modders, not Squad.

[styckx]

I feel like you're looking at this the wrong way. Squad was trying to bring the community something it had been asking for for a long time. If the problem is that some modders will only use 64 bit, then your grievance is with the modders, not Squad.

And has been said. It's only Windows.. Linux 64bit doesn't have this dependacy problem. It's just that Win 64 is in such an experimental state that some of these dependency issues are arising. People seem to forget (except those that use it) that Linux has had a 64bit client for a while now and none of us stomping our feet about communities being split.. Because it never happened and isn't happening. This Windows thing will be a non-issue in a few releases.

[Russoft]

split the community?! I'm on windows 7 64 bit but refuse to start using the 64-bit version of KSP until I'm confident that they've worked out the kinks. I'm sure a lot of windows players are still on 32 bit.

[Alshain]

It's only been a couple weeks. By the time 0.25 rolls around, I would bet you lots of money that the list is much longer.

And yet, your still unable or unwilling to name one, despite Padishar's multiple requests.

[Fiddlestyx]

I found the problem. Mac, not built for gaming.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Fiddlestyx

[pxi]

I found the problem. Mac, not build for gaming.

You'd be surprised how often I've been tasked with making someone's Mac behave like it's Windows counterpart, because "that's what all the other machines in the office do". It's often a non-trivial affair, because, well, OSX is not Windows.

The straightforward answer in many cases, would be to simply install Windows, but of course, the end-user almost never wants that, because then their Mac wouldn't be a Mac, would it?

Now, to swing this rambling to a point:

@LameLefty: Why, if 64-bit KSP is so important to you, have you not considered installing either Linux or Windows on your Mac?

I'm not trying to be nasty, but the 64-bit thing is a Unity thing, not a KSP thing. You can either rage about it, or do something constructive to solve the problem. Your choice.

[Motokid600]

I had a rocky start with 64bit, but now that I got it running it's just.. amazing. I find it more stable the 32bit ever was. Just the finicky right click is the only problem. But I'll take for being able to flood my gamedata with more mods then I know what to do with.

[Volcanix]

I don't really get the problem of 32-bit. I'm playing KSP on the Early 2014 MacBook Air 13', and the game never crashed. And yes, I've got a couple of mods installed, Kethane, KAS, KER and FinePrint. Everything works fine. Excepting that my laptop goes really hot and sounds like an airplane <.<

[Greenfire32]

First, you post thread about hating 64-bit support.

Then you comment in same thread:

KSP has never been the most stable game, especially when memory gets above 3.2 gigabyte and mods are taken into account.

You do realize that 64-bit support will completely alleviate this problem, don't you?

And as it stands right now, 64-bit KSP is extremely "beta" and waaaay less stable than the traditional 32-bit KSP.

TL;DR

You're complaining about nothing and 64-bit doesn't quite work yet anyway so calm down.

[Robotengineer]

I am currently revisiting x64 for Mac, and may have found a solution. There is a Mac x64 UnityPlayer included in the latest Unity versions, and I have been trying to get them to work. I have been able to run the x64 executable and it runs, it just doesn't give enough extra memory to be practical. Up to 2.28GB's of ram from 2.

[Lysergic]

Yeah, I haven't started 64 bit. Why would I? With my mods KSP is still rock solid. Haven't ever had it crash. (Did get a bug from a mod the day .24 came out, but... thats not exactly unexpected).

[weezl]

This. This right here. By going Win-only with this 64-bit release, Squad has instantly bifurcated the fan-base and cut Mac users out of a lot of the fun. Part of what attracted me to this game back when I started playing (0.19) was that the releases were platform-agnostic and basically if it worked for Windows, it also worked for Macs and on Linux boxes.

Sadly, this is no longer the case and it both saddens and angers me.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57603-0-24-2-RasterPropMonitor-putting-the-A-in-your-IVA-%28v0-18-1%29-27-Jul?p=1322065&viewfull=1#post1322065

First, if you knew how difficult cross platform development was, you'd say no such thing. The fact that Squad has stepped up to even try to do this is an incredible comment on their capabilities as software engineers.

Second.. 64 bit support on windows is a requirement pushed by their customers.. and I'm without a doubt sure that the vast majority of their customers are on Windows. Which means their requests will be preferred. I know you like your Apple.. I get it.. but requirements for any program (game or otherwise) is driven by the majority of the player base.. not by a minority.. Squad is trying to get things done for all platforms, that is to their credit. You used the word 'intentional' in one of your posts. That, to me, is inexcusable given how they are actually trying to support what are going to be for them much much smaller (and much less profitable) portions of their user community. Don't spit in their face for it. It doesn't reflect well on you, and shows no respect for a team who has your best interests at heart.

Third: you complaint is with the mod developers.. but keep in mind.. cross platform development is difficult.. WAY more difficult than you can obviously imagine. I have a hard time believing most mod developers will be able to do true cross platform development. I've personally done it a lot in the last 30 years.. and any thing you can imagine about fixing a bug or implementing a feature on just one platform is tremendously magnified when its 5-6 platforms (win 32/win 65/mac 32/mac 64/Linux 32/Linux 64). And yes.. I'm listing 32 and 64 as different on each.. BECAUSE THEY ARE. Each has its own set of problems that you must be aware of as a programmer to get things right. This is why I'm so impressed with Squad.. and I'm a professional saying this..

If you don't like being treated as a 3nd class citizen on the Mac, then move to a better platform. You are railing against a reality that WILL .. NOT ... CHANGE. Mac is never going to be the mass market device for games.. Those would be consoles.. Mac is never even going to be even a 2nd class platform for games.. That would be Windows PCs. Look at the installed base numbers for the platforms if you doubt me.. its easily searchable on google. According to current reports, for Mac installed base is just at 6%.. Windows is 90 ish.. and a very very small portion is Linux. This is an inescapable reality of the platform. Complaining about it will change absolutely nothing. If you want choice in games.. choose consoles or PCs.. or get ready for constant disappointment. There is no other alternative.

Macintosh has earned a niche in certain areas where it has traditionally done better.. This is why there is a 6% market share of Macs. PC games, unfortunately for you, is NOT one of those areas.

Edited August 1, 2014 by weezl

[Levelord]

split the community?! I'm on windows 7 64 bit but refuse to start using the 64-bit version of KSP until I'm confident that they've worked out the kinks. I'm sure a lot of windows players are still on 32 bit.

I for one had to revert back to 32 bit because the 64 bit was highly unstable on my high end PC.

[LethalDose]

I'm actually surprised this discussion has been largely about Squad & and the modders but I don't think anyone has mentioned Unity yet. I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the lack of a 64-bit version of for OSX and, until recently, Windows was due to Unity 4.3.3 being unstable in those environments.

64 bit support on windows is a requirement pushed by their customers

I think it's good to remember how Squad got convinced to release the windows 64-bit version in the first place. It wasn't so much "pushed" on Squad by the customers as it was the community figured out how to do it without them (or at least activated latent 64-bit features in released code). A few weeks to a month before 0.24 dropped, this thread go started with instructions on how to hack KSP to run in 64-bit mode. Squad saw that 64-bit of their own game was going to happen with or without their support, so they just got behind it and made it official.

I adore OSX, and I wish it software support to make it competitive with windows, but it doesn't, and this is an example. It's unfortunate that 64-bit Unity 4.3.3 isn't stable for Macs (or, really, stable enough), but that's it.

So OP, the modders don't deserve your ire and Squad doesn't deserve your ire, at least not on this issue (Yeah, I said it. Mark the freaking calendar). Your gripe is with Unity, well, life.

[tygoo7]

Uh, I'm playing my 0.24 career mode just fine with a bunch of mods on 64-bit and the only problem I have are random crashes here and then.

[JDCollie]

I'm actually surprised this discussion has been largely about Squad & and the modders but I don't think anyone has mentioned Unity yet. I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the lack of a 64-bit version of for OSX and, until recently, Windows was due to Unity 4.3.3 being unstable in those environments.

I think it's good to remember how Squad got convinced to release the windows 64-bit version in the first place. It wasn't so much "pushed" on Squad by the customers as it was the community figured out how to do it without them (or at least activated latent 64-bit features in released code). A few weeks to a month before 0.24 dropped, this thread go started with instructions on how to hack KSP to run in 64-bit mode. Squad saw that 64-bit of their own game was going to happen with or without their support, so they just got behind it and made it official.

I adore OSX, and I wish it software support to make it competitive with windows, but it doesn't, and this is an example. It's unfortunate that 64-bit Unity 4.3.3 isn't stable for Macs (or, really, stable enough), but that's it.

So OP, the modders don't deserve your ire and Squad doesn't deserve your ire, at least not on this issue (Yeah, I said it. Mark the freaking calendar). Your gripe is with Unity, well, life.

This. Squad just got behind what was already happening in the community. I was already running 64-bit on Windows well before .24 released, and if they somehow removed official 64 bit support (somethind I doubt would happen) I'd go back to running the hacked way anyway.

I'd love for our Mac brethren to join in the bugginess, but right now that isn't an option. Sorry, but if you don't like it, go talk to Unity about it.

[Eric S]

This. This right here. By going Win-only with this 64-bit release, Squad has instantly bifurcated the fan-base and cut Mac users out of a lot of the fun. Part of what attracted me to this game back when I started playing (0.19) was that the releases were platform-agnostic and basically if it worked for Windows, it also worked for Macs and on Linux boxes.

They still are platform-agnostic. I'm aware of exactly one mod that embeds native code in the .dll, and other than that, it's all non-architecture-specific intermedate code, including 32-bit vs 64-bit. What you're seeing in that comment is the fact that if a mod has problems running in 64-bit mode, it's almost definitely a problem in the 64-bit windows compatibility of Unity or KSP itself and there just aren't many 32-bit specific bugs in Unity or KSP at this time. If a mod works in 64-bit mode, there's little chance that it will fail in 32-bit mode for any reason other than running out of memory. So, this particular modder has decided to test just in 64-bit mode that rather than test in 32-bit mode then do further testing in 64 bit mode or test in 64-bit mode then do seemingly-pointless additional 32-bit mode testing.

[Robotengineer]

This. Squad just got behind what was already happening in the community. I was already running 64-bit on Windows well before .24 released, and if they somehow removed official 64 bit support (somethind I doubt would happen) I'd go back to running the hacked way anyway.

I'd love for our Mac brethren to join in the bugginess, but right now that isn't an option. Sorry, but if you don't like it, go talk to Unity about it.

There is a potential Mac 64-bit hack. I've messed around with it some and if some people would want to test it, its basically just like the Win-64 hack.

[sndrtj]

Er, if there are two versions available, doesn't that mean it will work everywhere? I've been going on the assumption that a 64-bit only release is meant to work around the myriad issues the win64 version of KSP has, for all other versions the 32-bit mod version should work. If a mod has only one version available, I assume it doesn't need anything special for win64.

I find it hard to imagine the portion of modders only supporting win64 is anything but vanishingly small.

Ermm.. Two versions means twice as much code to maintain, package/build, and distribute. That 6 times as much "attack surface" for any errors or bugs to occur. You generally do NOT want two versions of something. It downright increases mess.

[styckx]

Ermm.. Two versions means twice as much code to maintain

No it doesn't...

[Vonar]

Well no, no I don't. I play on a Mac and KSP has never been the most stable game, especially when memory gets above 3.2 gigabyte and mods are taken into account. But really, any perceived benefits of 64-bit aren't really the point. The point is, it's causing mod makers like Mihara to ignore 32-bit versions and is thus splitting the game's core fanbase in a way that is potentially very destructive.

Certainly it's his choice. But Squad's decision to release a Win-only version of the game allowed him to make that choice in the first place. That's my biggest beef.

(Love your Toolbar, by the way. I couldn't imagine playing without it).

This is the beauty of 64 bit, and why you should love it instead of hate it as once you get above the 3.2 gb - 3.5 gb limit that was imposed by the 32 bit version you can keep on going. My machine runs a windows operating system and has 24 gb worth of ram and there were times in the 32 bit version where the game was crashing because of the artificially imposed ram limit that was a staple of 32 bit programs.

I haven't kept up with developments in the Mac world for a very long time, but I've got to ask does the modern mac operating system have 64 bit support? and how much ram does your mac have?

[RoboRay]

This. This right here. By going Win-only with this 64-bit release, Squad has instantly bifurcated the fan-base and cut Mac users out of a lot of the fun. Part of what attracted me to this game back when I started playing (0.19) was that the releases were platform-agnostic and basically if it worked for Windows, it also worked for Macs and on Linux boxes.

But you were fine for all those months that 64-bit KSP worked only on Linux, so long as Windows didn't get it.

Edited August 1, 2014 by RoboRay