A Modding Community Divided.

[Tiberion]

Then how do I do it, hum?

Leave the modders alone, we were talking before you even knew Kerbal was a thing. There's no division, we're not Nuclear powers who need mediation. Quite frankly each mod author needs the flexibility to distribute and support their mod on their terms, because its already a lot of work and more hoops to jump through means less mods.

If you really and truly think there is an issue with people finding mods, then start indexing them. There have been many threads listing the active mods. It just takes someone to spend the time curating it; so there is your cause. Recruit some helpers. if one person gets tired of doing the work, hit the Quote button, copy the post and make a new one and carry on.

I think you'll find it to be a thankless job, much like modding can be sometimes.

[AlphaAsh]

Ok. Let's try something different.

Why do you make mods?

Because I like adding extra content to my games. Because I'm an 'artist' with a huge ego and like an audience and because every attempt I've made to profit from said art or work professionally as said artist has resulted in me being in conflict with other artists and managers and then being miserable, underpaid and always skint. When I make mods, none of that matters. I answer to no-one except myself first, then my audience. And they're an audience. Not customers. Big difference.

I think you're under the impression that most modders want as many players playing their mods as is possible. I think you might be wrong. I make mods for me first, then players who want them. I don't worry about those who aren't playing them.

I've been modding games for nearly two decades. I've tried working with teams of modders and it typically didn't end well. I've worked in communities of what can be only described as over-entitled a-holes who refuse to download anything if it isn't as p*** easy as possible to install and use and is as good as any professional content.

Stop trying to change the modders. Pick some of the current initiatives that are attempting the sort of things you want then and go back them up.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Your summarising of ferram4's post #15 as "-lots of hate-" is totally inaccurate and totally out-of-order. You are not going to convince modders of anything other than to ignore you if you continue as you are...

Perhaps we might be more inclined to believe that if you cut out the shouting (caps) too...

I perceived his post as hostile and.... You know what? I have had a long day. Lets cut to the chase

You guys HATE me. You guys HATE every single person who walks in here and says "OMG This is screwed up!". I don't know WHY you guys don't like us. Is it that you don't want to find solutions. I don't know.

But I like you guys (apart from the posts where you try to rip me a new one). Your mods are fantastic. Each and every one. I don't think a single mod author that has posted yet has not had their mod in my gamefolder. AND I WANT ONE THING: Some way that those mods can be easily found and browsed though, by those that enjoy KSP as much as you do.

Was I pissed when I wrote the start of this thread? Yes. Should I have said some things differently? Always. And do I know there have been other threads about this? Yes, I am not a (complete) idiot.

But I am jumping from thread to thread, from the community library to the mod manager discussion to the KerbalStuff thread. I see projects that, with some active discussion with you guys here, the big players, could get a massive boost.

As always I started with my foot in my mouth. Let's start over shall we?

Hello, I'm OS. Let's talk about KSP Modding and how to make it better.

[Boomerang]

As purely a user of mods, I have zero problem with the current system. I run a modded game. I know the dozen or so mods that are 'must-haves' for me if I'm starting a new save/game version. Googling the mod name+ksp is a bit of a silly way to find them, but that's because the forum search isn't much better than SpacePort's was. That's not an issue that the modders can control.

And even now, when I'd say that I'm happy with the array of mods I have, I still occasionally find ones that are new to me via the forums or reddit. And I like that. I can understand the convenience of having one great depository that you could hunt through once for all your mods then be done with that process, but I think that takes the fun out of it.

I'm pleased that the modders have options. And if you run adblock or something similar, you really shouldn't have any trouble from any of the hosts out there as far as ads/pop-ups. What difference does it make if I get one mod from Mediafire, one from Curse, another two from Dropbox? The forums are the best central location because of the space it creates for creators to showcase features and for users to post public feedback. Where things are hosted doesn't matter.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Leave the modders alone, we were talking before you even knew Kerbal was a thing. There's no division, we're not Nuclear powers who need mediation. Quite frankly each mod author needs the flexibility to distribute and support their mod on their terms, because its already a lot of work and more hoops to jump through means less mods.

If you really and truly think there is an issue with people finding mods, then start indexing them. There have been many threads listing the active mods. It just takes someone to spend the time curating it; so there is your cause. Recruit some helpers. if one person gets tired of doing the work, hit the Quote button, copy the post and make a new one and carry on.

I think you'll find it to be a thankless job, much like modding can be sometimes.

If you actually read what I am trying to do, you would see my end goal is TO LEAVE MODDERS ALONE. I just need some input from you all.

Stop trying to change the modders.

I don't want to change you. I want to talk to you. Understand what you do. That was the point of the "Why do you make mods?" question. It was not to make a point about users getting your mod.

I want to understand, so we can come up with solutions. Maybe YOU have an issue with something. Maybe there is a solution that makes things easier on you AND helps getting the mods to the users. Don't know if we don't talk about it.

Edited August 5, 2014 by sumghai
Consolidated consecutive replies by the same poster

[Brody Peffley]

If you actually read what I am trying to do, you would see my end goal is TO LEAVE MODDERS ALONE. I just need some input from you all.

To be sincerely kind. The caps are in sense making you shout at us. Nobody likes to get shouted now do we? Your end goal is to leave modders alone but your bugging them right now. Let me tell you. Over the last 2 years i've been playing KSP. The mods have gotten incredibly better. Also I never had trouble with finding mods either. Can you at least talk to us without using caps please? Even though I do not make mods. Mods are what keep the entertainment of the game going. Mods are like the 2nd leader. While the main game is the 1st leader. And I believe that creating mods is probably easier then you think. It only requires a 3d modeling software like blender and unity in order to make a mod. But this is coming from a person that is not a professional.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Brody Peffley

[Boomerang]

If you actually read what I am trying to do, you would see my end goal is TO LEAVE MODDERS ALONE. I just need some input from you all.

It sounds like you need a cause to shout about and you've just happened to have picked this one.

Is the current system a bit thrown-together, ad hoc? Of course it is. Because outside of the forum structure provided by Squad and the two official hosts that have existed, the way the the entire system functions, between authors, hosts, and users, has been determined overtime by the choices and behavior of thousands and thousands of different people who have generally done what works best for them and others who share their immediate interests.

It's a very organic system. It's far from perfect but it works very well for the people who use it and judging by the growing popularity of the game, it's easy enough for newcomers to figure out if they're willing to rub a few braincells together.

If people dislike what you're saying, it's because you're shouting about this problem like it's going to be the downfall of the game and you're the first one to realize it. I think we're generally all aware of the short comings of how things are now, but for the most part, it works. And because of the thousands and thousands of people involved, no amount of wishful cat herding is going to change things in the way that you see fit.

Edit: The whole 'let me help you!' along with the shouting is making you sound incredibly patronizing. This may not be your intent, but you talk as if the mod authors themselves are these poor, helpless souls in desperate need of your guidance. And I really don't think anything could be further from the truth.

And condescending to some of the people who have the greatest knowledge of the community as well as experience with the entire process that you want to change isn't going to get you anywhere.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Boomerang

[AlphaAsh]

Maybe YOU have an issue with something. Maybe there is a solution that makes things easier on you AND helps getting the mods to the users. Don't know if we don't talk about it.

Sorry chap, I don't have any issue with regards to mod distribution. I have an 'audience', a user-base and have very little concern about if it gets bigger or how quickly. My concern is with producing fun content and trying to find a way around the game's limitations and to utilise its freedoms to squeeze as much fun out of it as I can. The fact that others get to enjoy that too and maybe tell me I rock000rz or whatever, is icing on the cake.

[TheAlmightyOS]

*This is my apology to the entire thread for using CAPS. I tend to use them for emphasis. It was not meant to taken as shouting. I am sorry and I will remove all caps from my posts when I get a chance. Thank you*

[Brody Peffley]

*This is my apology to the entire thread for using CAPS. I tend to use them for emphasis. It was not meant to taken as shouting. I am sorry and I will remove all caps from my posts when I get a chance. Thank you*

Thank you. Now we will listen more

[TheAlmightyOS]

Edit: The whole 'let me help you!' along with the shouting is making you sound incredibly patronizing. This may not be your intent, but you talk as if the mod authors themselves are these poor, helpless souls in desperate need of your guidance. And I really don't think anything could be further from the truth.

And condescending to some of the people who have the greatest knowledge of the community as well as experience with the entire process that you want to change isn't going to get you anywhere.

ok. This. Right here. Guys, this is what is happening to me. My communication skills are nill but I really want to help out here

Last things and then I got to go for tonight

1) I know you guys know about this issue. I know this issue has been talked about. I still firmly believe that some communication about this issue backed up with action in a few of the community projects could go a long way.

2) I do not want to change what the Authors do. I do not want to change how they post. I do not want to change their host. I want to, well, learn from them. Learn what they like about the current set up. Learn what they do not like. find solutions for everyone

3) I know I have pissed off most of you in my various threads but I really do not want to be the enemy. I am just a good guy who see's a problem and wants to fix it. I want to be your friend. Hell, I eventually want to mod KSP like I did Fallout:NV so I most definitely don't want to be on your guys bad side, alright? I just have a very difficult time communicating sometimes.

So yeah. I will answer all the rest in the morning. Just... please take a look at post #16. I think I might be on to something

[ferram4]

You guys HATE me. You guys HATE every single person who walks in here and says "OMG This is screwed up!". I don't know WHY you guys don't like us. Is it that you don't want to find solutions. I don't know.

We don't hate you. For the most part, we're just frustrated, because (as you seem to be aware) you're not the first person to come in from outside and start trying to tell us how to do things. To start off, I think you should reflect on the contradiction between "OMG This is screwed up!" and "If you actually read what I am trying to do, you would see my end goal is TO LEAVE MODDERS ALONE." You're really not helping your case here.

You know the 2nd most irritating thing about these discussions? That they're always the same formula: person from outside KSP with no knowledge of how modding works in it shows up, suggests something that has been suggested multiple times before, and then becomes upset, frustrated, and sometimes belligerent when they realize that they aren't being received with open arms as some kind of savior of the modding community.

It's the same arguments: As an example, mod managers aren't a good thing because it inevitably puts an imperfect piece of software between my users and "installing"* my mods and hides from them what is going on; if an error occurs, they won't have any idea what to do or what went wrong, and will likely come to me about it, and I will be expected to support not only my own mods, but the mod manager as well.

You know the most irritating thing? That inevitably, it's by (I think) well-meaning people that simply aren't aware of the issues and consequences of their ideas for modders. I've never seen a thread in this forum started by an established modder asking for any of this, it's always by outsiders, and it really makes me suspicious of the effectiveness of any of these common ideas given the fact that no established modders want to touch them; after all, we know what to expect and what consequences there will be, and if we're not biting, there's probably a reason (hint: there are a lot for pretty much any suggestion). So it's only the new guys who come in that end up suggesting these things, and while they're well meaning, it seems like nearly every single one fails the test of asking themselves, "If this idea is really as effective, easy, and simple as I think it is, with no hidden consequences, why hasn't it been done already? Why am I the one suggesting it?" Of course, that's merely a failure of introspection rather than anything else, but I think it's somewhat revealing.

Normally, these threads end up resolving themselves when the standard responses to these ideas are made. They're not standard because they've been dismissed out-of-hand, but because we hear them all the time. However, normally OPs at least accept the arguments or decide to "prove us wrong" by trying something; I don't think I've ever seen the trying something result in something successful though. In either case, both are certainly more respectful and productive than this one has been. I've never really been a fan of most of these projects because they always seem to involve me getting more support requests at some point (either through more users screwing things up, or more users, or hiding things under the guise of making it simpler), but I'm a lot less willing to support them now, since apparently I'm hateful and the way that I do things (which many people have said is fine) is screwed up. Like I said, you're really not helping your case.

*I think that calling copying over a folder an installation is kind of a stretch.

ferram4, I know you mentioned not liking the .version file and planning to remove it. If I may ask, could you (if you have not done so) post your issues in that thread so that it can be improved?

Hunh, turns out it already supports build numbers... so why didn't the version in that pull request have Build = 0? Hmm...

[TheAlmightyOS]

We don't hate you. For the most part, we're just frustrated, because (as you seem to be aware) you're not the first person to come in from outside and start trying to tell us how to do things. To start off, I think you should reflect on the contradiction between "OMG This is screwed up!" and "If you actually read what I am trying to do, you would see my end goal is TO LEAVE MODDERS ALONE." You're really not helping your case here.

You know the 2nd most irritating thing about these discussions? That they're always the same formula: person from outside KSP with no knowledge of how modding works in it shows up, suggests something that has been suggested multiple times before, and then becomes upset, frustrated, and sometimes belligerent when they realize that they aren't being received with open arms as some kind of savior of the modding community.

It's the same arguments: As an example, mod managers aren't a good thing because it inevitably puts an imperfect piece of software between my users and "installing"* my mods and hides from them what is going on; if an error occurs, they won't have any idea what to do or what went wrong, and will likely come to me about it, and I will be expected to support not only my own mods, but the mod manager as well.

You know the most irritating thing? That inevitably, it's by (I think) well-meaning people that simply aren't aware of the issues and consequences of their ideas for modders. I've never seen a thread in this forum started by an established modder asking for any of this, it's always by outsiders, and it really makes me suspicious of the effectiveness of any of these common ideas given the fact that no established modders want to touch them; after all, we know what to expect and what consequences there will be, and if we're not biting, there's probably a reason (hint: there are a lot for pretty much any suggestion). So it's only the new guys who come in that end up suggesting these things, and while they're well meaning, it seems like nearly every single one fails the test of asking themselves, "If this idea is really as effective, easy, and simple as I think it is, with no hidden consequences, why hasn't it been done already? Why am I the one suggesting it?" Of course, that's merely a failure of introspection rather than anything else, but I think it's somewhat revealing.

Normally, these threads end up resolving themselves when the standard responses to these ideas are made. They're not standard because they've been dismissed out-of-hand, but because we hear them all the time. However, normally OPs at least accept the arguments or decide to "prove us wrong" by trying something; I don't think I've ever seen the trying something result in something successful though. In either case, both are certainly more respectful and productive than this one has been. I've never really been a fan of most of these projects because they always seem to involve me getting more support requests at some point (either through more users screwing things up, or more users, or hiding things under the guise of making it simpler), but I'm a lot less willing to support them now, since apparently I'm hateful and the way that I do things (which many people have said is fine) is screwed up. Like I said, you're really not helping your case.

*I think that calling copying over a folder an installation is kind of a stretch.

Hunh, turns out it already supports build numbers... so why didn't the version in that pull request have Build = 0? Hmm...

I am sorry for any disrespect you may have taken from my posts. It most definitely was not implied.

I would like to think the difference here is that I am not suggesting something that is "effective, easy, and simple", and instead asking the mod Authors themselves for a dialog about how they do things so we can possibly come up with something that works for you guys, not the other way around. I seriously want to "leave the modders alone" and find some way to interface with your processes and methods. I think I can do this because it is my job. I support developers. I get multiple projects to work together. and I see the potential here. I know we got off on the wrong foot but please gimme a chance guys.

Question, what does OP stand for?

Edited August 5, 2014 by TheAlmightyOS

[Boomerang]

I am sorry for any disrespect you may have taken from my posts. It most definitely was not implied.

Question, what does OP stand for?

Original/opening post/poster. Either the first post in a thread or the author of it.

[ferram4]

Original Post or Original Poster. Depends on the context, but it points to the first post of the topic or the person who posted it, although the former use is more common here and the latter is more common on reddit.

Edit: I am not a ninja, but apparently Boomerang is.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ferram4

[robopilot99]

I think you need to calm down. The modding scene here is working fine. I know that there is no centralized location for mods which can make it difficult to discover mods. This is partially due to squad not making a mod repository that was successfully adopted by the community and partially because everyone wants to do things different. I am personally hoping Kerbal Stuff will gain popularity and become an almost universal mod hosting solution (it also has many features on the to do list so be patient), but until then you can try visiting the mood showcase sub-forum. It works well because you can always find new mods all in one place. Overall I find you're getting too upset over this.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Overall I find you're getting too upset over this.

Overall I find you have no clue how I am feeling. I am not upset. And I do not need to "Calm Down". I wanted to start a discussion. It's started

Maybe I should go back and edit the first post to sound better? Text based communication is hard....

<quoted post snipped>

EDIT: I typed the following in response to a post that has been deleted. Basicaly, he was very angry that he could not use programs like Nexus Mod Manager to apply mods to KSP.

Wow, I did not expect an example to to fall into my lap but YES. Here we have your average end user. They are used to modding games with tools like the Nexas Mod Manager or the Steam Workshop.

Now, to you all, I know this is not your concern. You make mods for you. You make them because you want to and you share them because you can (or, the other way around as it might be). And I am not asking you to be concerned with southernrock's plight. I am asking you to do what you always do, but let me in on it. Let me find a way to get mods to users like southrenrock while letting you guys do as you do. That is the end game everyone. Learn from the modders, create a system that works for the users. As I pointed out upthread, we got the start of something if we can combine those two projects.

Southrenrock, thank you for your input. I have definitely been there. Check out the Community Mods and Plugins Library. Definitely helps until we can come up with a better solution. Also, many of the Authors here post to more than one location. If curse is down then there is a good bet the mod is hosted elsewhere. Check that Community Mods list. It has links to the mod thread on this forum and those will have all the up to date links from github, dropbox, mediafire, curse, kerbal stuff, google drive etc

Edited August 5, 2014 by TheAlmightyOS
Removed quote of post deleted for inflammatory and profane language.

[Brody Peffley]

Yes the making of mods and updating them might be a pain. But this is only the beginning for KSP. Who knows what might come in the near future. But In time I bet they would fill your needs.

[sumghai]

[MOD - Just a heads-up, guys - I've merged several posts by users making consecutive replies, but in the future, please use the "Edit Post" button if you want to add something to your last post. This keeps the thread streamlined and easier to browse.

You can also use the "Multi-Quote This Message" button at the bottom right-hand corner of any post to quote multiple users / messages in your reply.]

[Brody Peffley]

[MOD - Just a heads-up, guys - I've merged several posts by users making consecutive replies, but in the future, please use the "Edit Post" button if you want to add something to your last post. This keeps the thread streamlined and easier to browse.

You can also use the "Multi-Quote This Message" button at the bottom right-hand corner of any post to quote multiple users / messages in your reply.]

Thank you for clearing this thread up. But is it just me that its getting hot in here? But if anyone can find this hidden message, I'm not going to contribute to this thread anymore since its getting to heated with hate.

[SpacedCowboy]

Get use to it!

[OrbitusII]

Yes the making of mods and updating them might be a pain. But this is only the beginning for KSP. Who knows what might come in the near future. But In time I bet they would fill your needs.

Yes. Please keep in mind that KSP is In Development and does not yet include all of the features that the developers want to implement. Who knows, maybe one of the features they want to add in the future is an integrated mod manager!

One thing that I try to remember if I have issues with modding KSP is that KSP is infinitely better than Minecraft for modding. You don't have to go through endless streams of adf.ly links to get the mods you want, you don't need a third party modding API to make it possible to mod KSP in the first place, and you don't have to worry about every mod being broken with every update.

Yeah, there's some issues, but we have it really good here and it's bound to get better.

[TheAlmightyOS]

[MOD - Just a heads-up, guys - I've merged several posts by users making consecutive replies, but in the future, please use the "Edit Post" button if you want to add something to your last post. This keeps the thread streamlined and easier to browse.

You can also use the "Multi-Quote This Message" button at the bottom right-hand corner of any post to quote multiple users / messages in your reply.]

Apologies for the extra work. I would reply to one and then another would pop up. I will be more mindful in the future.

[Dooz]

The small mods get washed away In the tides of large mods small mods rise and fall It is the life cycle of a mod.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Dooz
Random I

[NathanKell]

TheAlmightyOS: That example cuts both ways. As a modder, already dealing with more support requests than I can handle, do I really want the entry bar lowered such that I am liable to be on the receiving end of posts like that?

This, I think was the point that ferram and regex have been making: if a user cannot use google to find a mod, and cannot unzip a single zip file, without running into problems--imagine the support headaches that will cause. Frankly, unless you've tried to support a mod in the week after a new version of KSP comes out, you have literally no idea how much work, and how much user anger, you have to deal with.