[1.1] RLA Stockalike 13.4 [25 Apr]

[hoojiwana]

Pure curiosity on my part: what exactly is awkward in stock, what exactly does Atomic Age do different?

Ah I meant Stock Fuel Switch. Seems Porkjet changed things around since I last looked.

broken link. in that case I'd also like to propose the old lv-t5's consideration for other sizes as well (one can never have enough 1.875m engines )

Try this, though I'm not settled on exactly how the nozzle/nozzles fit yet, or if it'll be a cluster or not. As for 1.875m engines, those things are always lurking at the back of my mind but if I ever did them it'd be under a different pack solely for those parts. Not exactly high priority, I've got enough engines planned just for the stock sizes.

there most certainly is you see the lv-t30/45 are too powerful and need multiple fl-t800's to weight them down for optimal use (I hate stacking tanks it looks ugly and contributes to rocket flipping in the new aero cause it shifts the center of mass back) if used with less tanks then they are too heavy and best used with replaced with lighter engines (the old conundrum that an engine with less isp like the 48-7s beats a more efficient one simply because its lighter) so something that falls between the lv-t's and the 909 would be just right.

I'll look into it more once I'm done updating things then. My to-do list for the next Stockalike is getting pretty big now!

I hate the practice though I would consider it acceptable if they at least gave one of each first before branching off. fortunately the two mingle in the early stages of the tree where most of the rla parts have traditionally been. alternately with the ability to mod the tech tree giving some rla parts thei own branches and nodes might be an option to consider when not wanting to over crowd a stock node because its the only place the parts thematically fit.

My main concern is the monopropellant engines since they scale all the way up to 2.5m, as well as concerns for future parts. I'm not going to be making special tech nodes since that means the pack wouldn't play well with other tech tree mods, or any other mods that may add similar nodes to ones I do. Everything kinda fits into the stock nodes anyway, it's just a matter of putting them in sensible places. Another concern, the order of sizes of small fuel tanks, or the order that you unlock the small engines. Would an efficient engine come first, or the lifter engine? The mid-tier 48-7S comes fairly late one in the stock node.

While on the subject of tech trees, anyone tried out the new CTT?

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I use CTT right now. It's pretty nice, but it doesn't add many nodes to the early phases of the tree (subsonic flight, enhanced survivability, and recycling are the earliest ones, none of which really apply here). However, stock KSP added a new node for "precision propulsion" that might be a good home for some of your smaller engines (that's where the LV-1 and LV-1R live now).

[Yemo]

My main concern is the monopropellant engines since they scale all the way up to 2.5m, as well as concerns for future parts. I'm not going to be making special tech nodes since that means the pack wouldn't play well with other tech tree mods, or any other mods that may add similar nodes to ones I do. Everything kinda fits into the stock nodes anyway, it's just a matter of putting them in sensible places. Another concern, the order of sizes of small fuel tanks, or the order that you unlock the small engines. Would an efficient engine come first, or the lifter engine? The mid-tier 48-7S comes fairly late one in the stock node.

While on the subject of tech trees, anyone tried out the new CTT?

I use the CTT as the basis for my SETIctt addon, where I shift manned space flight back a bit (eg 2.5m fuel tanks for 90 science, but 2.5m engines after the R&D upgrade). Also works better for those extra propulsion nodes (eg precision propulsion).

Basically starting with 1.25m and then branching off into 2.5m and 0.625m engines. The former being more useful for manned missions, while the latter are suitable for probes.

[Streetwind]

I'm all for more mods supporting the CTT. But does RLA have a real amount of parts that don't fit into the stock nodes? Using the CTT shines largely through its extension to the stock tree for technologies that go beyond what Squad offers.

[Selentic]

I'm all for more mods supporting the CTT. But does RLA have a real amount of parts that don't fit into the stock nodes? Using the CTT shines largely through its extension to the stock tree for technologies that go beyond what Squad offers.

The RLA electrothermal & advanced Ion thrusters fit nicely on CTT's expanded Ion branches - I moved them up there in place of the as-yet-unreleased NearFuture engines that I'm pretty sure they were created for. I stuck the arc & resisto jets in "plasma propulsion" since i figured "close enough"!

PS: Does anyone have an already done fix for the RLA engines not going "flame out" correctly? I'm always loathe to mess with the animation code, but I really like the big monopropellant rockets.

[hoojiwana]

I use CTT right now. It's pretty nice, but it doesn't add many nodes to the early phases of the tree (subsonic flight, enhanced survivability, and recycling are the earliest ones, none of which really apply here). However, stock KSP added a new node for "precision propulsion" that might be a good home for some of your smaller engines (that's where the LV-1 and LV-1R live now).

The small parts in stock appear fairly late on, I'm not sure if I want to follow that. In the old tech tree the 0.625m parts ended up being unlocked mostly alongside the 1.25m parts, so it'll be like that, or somewhere between that and stock. Maybe having the Spinnaker and SRBs come earlier? The very late placement of the 1.25m fairings complicates things even further.

I use the CTT as the basis for my SETIctt addon, where I shift manned space flight back a bit (eg 2.5m fuel tanks for 90 science, but 2.5m engines after the R&D upgrade). Also works better for those extra propulsion nodes (eg precision propulsion).

Basically starting with 1.25m and then branching off into 2.5m and 0.625m engines. The former being more useful for manned missions, while the latter are suitable for probes.

This seems to be the vague idea that stock uses as well.

I'm all for more mods supporting the CTT. But does RLA have a real amount of parts that don't fit into the stock nodes? Using the CTT shines largely through its extension to the stock tree for technologies that go beyond what Squad offers.

There's not that many parts, but I'm thinking of other part packs (AB Launchers for example) and any ideas I may have for the future.

The RLA electrothermal & advanced Ion thrusters fit nicely on CTT's expanded Ion branches - I moved them up there in place of the as-yet-unreleased NearFuture engines that I'm pretty sure they were created for. I stuck the arc & resisto jets in "plasma propulsion" since i figured "close enough"!

The Ion Type-2 could fit in later, though the Resistojet and Arcjet are both on the same tech level (realistically speaking) as basic Hall-effect ion thrusters. It's a shame the tech tree straight up calls that node "Ion propulsion" and not "Electrical propulsion" or something. Streetwind also had a nice MM config for pre-1.0 versions of RLA+Near Future that tweaked all three electric engines to match NFP balancing, once things are all up to date maybe it'll be worth someone revisiting that.

PS: Does anyone have an already done fix for the RLA engines not going "flame out" correctly? I'm always loathe to mess with the animation code, but I really like the big monopropellant rockets.

What is this exactly? What engines does it effect? Can you post a screenshot? Are you using Hotrockets or some similar custom particle config?

[Selentic]

The Ion Type-2 could fit in later, though the Resistojet and Arcjet are both on the same tech level (realistically speaking) as basic Hall-effect ion thrusters. It's a shame the tech tree straight up calls that node "Ion propulsion" and not "Electrical propulsion" or something. Streetwind also had a nice MM config for pre-1.0 versions of RLA+Near Future that tweaked all three electric engines to match NFP balancing, once things are all up to date maybe it'll be worth someone revisiting that.

I set my tree up so the Ion node only has the stock "Dawn", in it, while the advanced Ion & electrothermals are even with each other after the split... but yeah, it's something that has to be tinkered with for NFP compatibility. Might just change the positioning of the CTT nodes.

What is this exactly? What engines does it effect? Can you post a screenshot? Are you using Hotrockets or some similar custom particle config?

Let's see:

That's the LFO Cutter, the MP Cormorant, Albatross, & MPR-45, and the electric Resistojet, Arcjet... so probably all of them. (EXCEPT the Ion-2; the lighted grid shuts off properly.) The only "effects" mods installed are Planetshine, which shouldn't matter, and EngineLight - which *does* shut off when the flameout condition triggers. (I just went and checked it with EngineLight removed with the same results.)

Hope that helps!

EDIT: I think i managed to fix the "flameout" graphics issue - i went and replaced "directThrottleEffectName" with "runningEffectName" and everything seems to work as intended and the graphics are toggled appropriately.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Selentic
found a fix

[Streetwind]

The Ion Type-2 could fit in later, though the Resistojet and Arcjet are both on the same tech level (realistically speaking) as basic Hall-effect ion thrusters. It's a shame the tech tree straight up calls that node "Ion propulsion" and not "Electrical propulsion" or something. Streetwind also had a nice MM config for pre-1.0 versions of RLA+Near Future that tweaked all three electric engines to match NFP balancing, once things are all up to date maybe it'll be worth someone revisiting that.

Revisiting in the sense that you're hoping for an updated config, or in the sense that you're hoping to fold it into RLA directly?

The stats I gave the engines should still be balanced with NFP - the balance targets didn't move for tier 1 engines - but the MM code no longer works properly due to various 1.0 changes. It references deprecated plugin components, among other things. Once NFP actually releases (still pending KSP 1.03) I can look into them.

P.S.: I'm all for small parts early in the tech tree

Edited May 26, 2015 by Streetwind

[Nutter]

I too, wouldn't mind small parts early on. Especially since they're pretty handy for making low-payload boosters without overdosing on Oscars.

Also, about engine/tank tech tree separataion: I don't mind it, since it's an extra excuse to have multi-engined stages. Though, I do admit, it's kinda problematic with interstage fairings.

[Astrofox]

I would like to see tier 1 solar panels and a very small unmanned spacecraft part, with reaction wheels of course.

Is that asking too much?

[Streetwind]

Solar panels come intentionally late in the stock tech tree; it's a gameplay consideration that the capability to stay in space indefinitely should require some investment on the part of the player.

As for the "very small unmanned spacecraft part with reaction wheels"... you mean like... a probe core? I wouldn't expect something like that out of a parts pack that titles itself "Stockalike". A pack like this aligns itself with stock KSP, and does not replace or rework it. In stock KSP, the Stayputnik defines the earliest development of probe cores, and it has no SAS and not reaction wheels. Those are reserved for at least one tech up above the Stayputnik.

[Nutter]

Here's something to consider, now that aerodynamics are more inclined to longer rockets; an extra length of fuel tanks in the .625 and 1.25 categories, perhaps? Or is there a stockalike mod that already does that that I've missed?

[Yemo]

I would like to see tier 1 solar panels and a very small unmanned spacecraft part, with reaction wheels of course.

Is that asking too much?

Then maybe you should look for tech tree mods, not part mods.

[hoojiwana]

EDIT: I think i managed to fix the "flameout" graphics issue - i went and replaced "directThrottleEffectName" with "runningEffectName" and everything seems to work as intended and the graphics are toggled appropriately.

Yep that's it. There's also powerEffectName but I'm not sure what the difference is.

Revisiting in the sense that you're hoping for an updated config, or in the sense that you're hoping to fold it into RLA directly?

First one, then the other. Considering making an MM config for things like Smokescreen configs for those gorgeous expanding FX and "native" NFP balance, though that'll be at some point later down the line.

P.S.: I'm all for small parts early in the tech tree

I too, wouldn't mind small parts early on. Especially since they're pretty handy for making low-payload boosters without overdosing on Oscars.

Also, about engine/tank tech tree separataion: I don't mind it, since it's an extra excuse to have multi-engined stages. Though, I do admit, it's kinda problematic with interstage fairings.

So stick with the current tech tree "theme" then? Sounds good to me.

I would like to see tier 1 solar panels and a very small unmanned spacecraft part, with reaction wheels of course.

Is that asking too much?

Streetwind and Yemo answered this perfectly; stock is set up a certain way and my intent is to (mostly) follow that, if you want probes and power earlier I'd look for other tech tree options. SETI starts with probes rather than manned for example.

Here's something to consider, now that aerodynamics are more inclined to longer rockets; an extra length of fuel tanks in the .625 and 1.25 categories, perhaps? Or is there a stockalike mod that already does that that I've missed?

Way ahead of you! Didn't show it in the other image since the focus of that was the replacements for the existing tanks. There's also an even shorter tank than the smallest one on the other pic as well, at only 25cm long. They're all set to be double the length of the previous tank, going up to 2m for this:

And that sneaky little thing on the bottom of the tank is the half-textured Spinnaker replacement. The biggest change is the way the gimbal works; the whole housing for the combustion chamber is now connected to the nozzle and the entire thing rotates. The nozzle itself is also a little bit wider and has a shape more suited to it's role of atmospheric lifter.

I also finished up the model for the LV-T5 replacement after a little bit of difficulty nailing down the concept. Initially the plan was to have a basic LV-1 style single engine with a big nozzle like Aerojet Rocketdynes small engines, and a cluster of two on a fuel-tank mount. This didn't look very good and certainly didn't fit the stock style, so I ditched that idea and made a single engine version big enough to look the part, and it ended up being nearly as long as the Spinnaker! Not much use for a landing engine but don't worry:

Edited May 28, 2015 by hoojiwana
Changed Aerojet Rocketdyne link

[Initar]

A Black Adder reference! I love you even more ^^

Quick question: Will this awesome update break compatibility with previous parts? I guess so but want to be sure.

[Nutter]

Weeeeee! Long tanks and new Spinnakers oh my!

I'm gonna be making so many six-engined cluster-urr-mess launchers with this!

Cunning Plan; Somethingosmething radial something?

[Gatrnerd]

I can't wait for this new update. This stockalike pack is pretty interesting and it really fills in a lot of parts I wish were in the stock game already.

Good luck on the update!

[SmallFatFetus]

I'm guessing the cunning plan is this!

[Nutter]

Oooohkay...whatever the cunning plan is, we need some of those!

[cipherpunks]

Anyone still has that old 6-pointed MMRTG? I need its model+texture... 8-pointed won't do.

Nevermind - found it.

Edited June 5, 2015 by cipherpunks

[cipherpunks]

Xenon/MP multimode engines (at least the smaller one) are not looking good in 1.0.2, namely running effect is the same regardless of propellant (mode) used, and it is shown even if propellant is already exhausted.

Someone please teach me how to cure this "propellant exhausted but effect is still running" woe, and I'll try to cobble some patch then.

[Spacepetscompany]

Any chance of getting a MM config for the RTG to work with Nerteas new decay module?

[Streetwind]

Shouldn't be hard to pull off. You basically just need to copy the MM patch for the stock RTG and change the part name it applies to.

(... I think.)

Edited June 9, 2015 by Streetwind

[hoojiwana]

Another change of plans! The "cunning plan" and long-nozzle LV-T5 turned out to have such similar stats it seems bloatful (?) to have them both in roughly the same niche but one intended for landing. Instead, the "cunning plan" will be the (existing) LV-T5 replacement. Here it is, a squat little truncated aerospike:

The cunning part is the Rockomax paint-scheme, the idea is that this is the lead-in technologically to the Cutter. It's also the first part I'm trying out a different tactic for emissives to go with the fancy new heat system for 1.0. Previously the heat system was essentially ignorable and was used to just set up if an engine was hot to show more of the emissive animation (like the old Spinnaker does), and to have "cold" engines have a less intense emissive. In future parts the idea will be to set up the emissive to cover the full heat range right up to part destruction, and just set the engine heat to be something reasonable from a gameplay standpoint. You can see this above, the emissive is at 100% so that's what it'll look like right as the part explodes from overheating.

Don't fret about the model for the long-nozzle LV-T5, it's just so awesome I can't let it go to waste so I'll find a place for it. Though that might end up being in the update after this one. For reference it's just a bit shorter than the Spinnaker (which is roughly the same length as the old version of itself).

I also need some names for these engines listed below, so throw your suggestions at me! Any extra ideas are also welcome for future plans.

Ionic Symphonic Protonic Electronics (Does Near-Future Propulsion use names?)

• High-efficiency Ion
  
• Bi-Modal Resistojet
  
• Bi-Modal Arcjet

Jeb's Junkyard

• Micro LFO engine (1kn, smaller than the Ant)

Rockomax (Naval theme)

• 0.625m aerospike

Roemy-Lemdum Atomics

• LV-Nc

STEADLER (Not the same manufacturer of the stock MP engine)

• Micro Monopropellant engine x2
  
• 0.625m Monopropellant engine x2
  
• 1.25m Monopropellant engine

A Black Adder reference! I love you even more ^^

Quick question: Will this awesome update break compatibility with previous parts? I guess so but want to be sure.

It absolutely will break compatibility. The large changes to the 0.625m lineup especially, and there will also be a folder cleanup to remove some extraneous texture files. This is why I've not done an "official" 1.0 update yet, so those of you using a handrolled MM update like Nurphs from a few pages back will have to be careful updating into existing saves.

I can't wait for this new update. This stockalike pack is pretty interesting and it really fills in a lot of parts I wish were in the stock game already.

Good luck on the update!

Thanks! Not all parts are all that "required" but it's just so fun making things (especially engines) I gotta try and squeeze them in somewhere.

I'm guessing the cunning plan is this!

Oooohkay...whatever the cunning plan is, we need some of those!

It's not since you can't do something like that in stock. I believe Nertea's gorgeous Cryogenic Engines pack has something similar though if you want to check it out.

Any chance of getting a MM config for the RTG to work with Nerteas new decay module?

Shouldn't be hard to pull off. You basically just need to copy the MM patch for the stock RTG and change the part name it applies to.

What's he been up to now?

[passinglurker]

Another change of plans! The "cunning plan" and long-nozzle LV-T5 turned out to have such similar stats it seems bloatful (?) to have them both in roughly the same niche but one intended for landing. Instead, the "cunning plan" will be the (existing) LV-T5 replacement. Here it is, a squat little truncated aerospike:

http://i.imgur.com/tDaVirA.jpg

The cunning part is the Rockomax paint-scheme, the idea is that this is the lead-in technologically to the Cutter. It's also the first part I'm trying out a different tactic for emissives to go with the fancy new heat system for 1.0. Previously the heat system was essentially ignorable and was used to just set up if an engine was hot to show more of the emissive animation (like the old Spinnaker does), and to have "cold" engines have a less intense emissive. In future parts the idea will be to set up the emissive to cover the full heat range right up to part destruction, and just set the engine heat to be something reasonable from a gameplay standpoint. You can see this above, the emissive is at 100% so that's what it'll look like right as the part explodes from overheating.

Don't fret about the model for the long-nozzle LV-T5, it's just so awesome I can't let it go to waste so I'll find a place for it. Though that might end up being in the update after this one. For reference it's just a bit shorter than the Spinnaker (which is roughly the same length as the old version of itself).

http://i.imgur.com/2VPK80n.jpg

I also need some names for these engines listed below, so throw your suggestions at me! Any extra ideas are also welcome for future plans.

Ionic Symphonic Protonic Electronics (Does Near-Future Propulsion use names?)

• High-efficiency Ion
  
• Bi-Modal Resistojet
  
• Bi-Modal Arcjet

Jeb's Junkyard

• Micro LFO engine (1kn, smaller than the Ant)

Rockomax (Naval theme)

• 0.625m aerospike

Roemy-Lemdum Atomics

• LV-Nc

STEADLER (Not the same manufacturer of the stock MP engine)

• Micro Monopropellant engine x2
  
• 0.625m Monopropellant engine x2
  
• 1.25m Monopropellant engine

hmm...

Ionic Symphonic Protonic Electronics

• High-efficiency Ion: Dusk
  
• Bi-Modal Resistojet: Night
  
• Bi-Modal Arcjet: Noon

Jeb's Junkyard

• Micro LFO engine (1kn, smaller than the Ant): Aphid

Rockomax (Naval theme)

• 0.625m aerospike: Dinghy

Roemy-Lemdum Atomics

• LV-Nc: Isotope

STEADLER (Not the same manufacturer of the stock MP engine)

• Micro Monopropellant engine x2: Donut hole, and Mini muffin
  
• 0.625m Monopropellant engine x2: Donut and Muffin
  
• 1.25m Monopropellant engine: Danish

EDIT: please don't make the ion's adhere to near future ballance I like RLA as the simpler "no nerf needed" option.

EDITEDIT: Oh the big MP engines are named after birds... >.>... I could have sworn one was named croissant... derp

Edited June 14, 2015 by passinglurker