[1.2.2] 10x Kerbol system development for Kopernicus: Version 6.3.0.1 - Update: April 14 2017

[jsimmons]

Just wanted to give a taste of where the overhaul version of this mod is at.

. I have updated the Planet eve with a proper height map and it looks much better. No jarring effects when going from scaled space to PQS. Worked a bit on Laythe but that is more challenging to fix. Enjoy.

[S4qFBxkFFg]

Ooh! This mod looks like a must-have for my next career game (I know about RSS, but I like the Kerbolar system, just not its size).

Are there any plans to add it to CKAN once the overhaul is complete?

[Yarbrough08]

I love this solar system - and I have used this mod for a while. However, I have been away for a few months and am having a problem with it now that I am beginning a new 1.0.4 build. I am hoping that it is a mistake that I've made during installation.

To start with, I have KSP version 1.0.4 - then I add the following (in order, and all are up-to-date):

1 - KSCswitcher

2 - Kopernicus

3 - EVE Overhaul

everything works fine up to here, until I add:

4 - 10x Kerbol for EVE Overhaul

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I do have MM 2.6.6

The result I get is this:

Every few times I load it, It will show KSC; however, it is not the 10x kerbol system - only the regular sized variant (and it is quite buggy - invisible land @ higher altitudes, ships that explode for no reason, etc..).

Any help in resolving this issue would be much appreciated.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Yarbrough08

[jsimmons]

Ooh! This mod looks like a must-have for my next career game (I know about RSS, but I like the Kerbolar system, just not its size).

Are there any plans to add it to CKAN once the overhaul is complete?

Yes once we leave the beta stage I will be pushing it to kerbalstuff and adding in CKAN support.

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I love this solar system - and I have used this mod for a while. However, I have been away for a few months and am having a problem with it now that I am beginning a new 1.0.4 build. I am hoping that it is a mistake that I've made during installation.

To start with, I have KSP version 1.0.4 - then I add the following (in order, and all are up-to-date):

1 - KSCswitcher

2 - Kopernicus

3 - EVE Overhaul

everything works fine up to here, until I add:

4 - 10x Kerbol for EVE Overhaul

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I do have MM 2.6.6

The result I get is this:

http://i.imgur.com/9j2vHqNh.jpg

Every few times I load it, It will show KSC; however, it is not the 10x kerbol system - only the regular sized variant (and it is quite buggy - invisible land @ higher altitudes, ships that explode for no reason, etc..).

Any help in resolving this issue would be much appreciated.

You haven't done anything wrong. Currently Overhaul has been having a lot of changes that require the configuration files to be updated. What is posted currently needs to be updated to have these new changes. Give me a few hours and I will release something that works. Anyways I have new Eve height map that makes the terrain interesting and matches the default scale space texture.

[Yarbrough08]

You haven't done anything wrong. Currently Overhaul has been having a lot of changes that require the configuration files to be updated. What is posted currently needs to be updated to have these new changes. Give me a few hours and I will release something that works. Anyways I have new Eve height map that makes the terrain interesting and matches the default scale space texture.

Ah.. No worries, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong on my end. I shall patiently wait for the update..

[jsimmons]

Ah.. No worries, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong on my end. I shall patiently wait for the update..

Ask you you shall receive. I just posted a update with the latest Overhaul. You need to grab the Overhaul from today. Please be aware that the Overhaul mod is constantly changing so this

config could become invalid. Since I actively test the Overhaul mod I will attempt to push out any config changes and post to let people know to upgrade.

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Just to give you an idea how the latest Overhaul looks like for 10x kerbol here is a video I did to show off the terrain.

[Yarbrough08]

Ask you you shall receive.....

Excellent, downloading now.. Thanks for the update, and if you need any help maintaining it (or rather - just want some additional help on it) just let me know..

[beltorak]

Thanks much for this mod

I have one feature request. I might have messed up installing and removing the wrong one, I wasn't entirely sure which archive to download for 1.0.4 with the RealismOverhaul (installed via CKAN), so first I tried the EVE Overhaul one, and then the EVE Interstellar. But in both cases I feel the 10x Kerbin atmosphere ends way too early - 70km, just like stock. Since Kerbin is comparable to Earth, the atmosphere should extend with about the same profile, right? Editing the "altitude" value in the config didn't seem to do anything, but a suggestion from someone on IRC lead me to replace the atmosphere section with that found in the Real Solar System mod. Doing so gives the expected results - status changes to "In space low" @ 130km, and the atmospheric pressure drops off as expected up until that point. It would probably be sufficient to drop in the pressure and temp curve tables (and the altitude, but again I don't know what that setting affects). I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile to go through http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/kinetic/barfor.html for the other planets; maybe picking some arbitrary scale heights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_height) would be a good simplification?

Also, is it just me, or does Sarnus's orbit seem dangerously close to Kerbin's?

Again thanks much for this mod

[Dodecadevin]

I love this mod. Would just like to point out some info that might be useful to put in the OP, since I had a tough time finding it:

To use the standard delta-V map with 10x Kerbol, simply multiply all the stock dV values by sqrt(10), which is about 3.16.

[jsimmons]

Thanks much for this mod

I have one feature request. I might have messed up installing and removing the wrong one, I wasn't entirely sure which archive to download for 1.0.4 with the RealismOverhaul (installed via CKAN), so first I tried the EVE Overhaul one, and then the EVE Interstellar. But in both cases I feel the 10x Kerbin atmosphere ends way too early - 70km, just like stock. Since Kerbin is comparable to Earth, the atmosphere should extend with about the same profile, right? Editing the "altitude" value in the config didn't seem to do anything, but a suggestion from someone on IRC lead me to replace the atmosphere section with that found in the Real Solar System mod. Doing so gives the expected results - status changes to "In space low" @ 130km, and the atmospheric pressure drops off as expected up until that point. It would probably be sufficient to drop in the pressure and temp curve tables (and the altitude, but again I don't know what that setting affects). I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile to go through http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/kinetic/barfor.html for the other planets; maybe picking some arbitrary scale heights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_height) would be a good simplification?

Also, is it just me, or does Sarnus's orbit seem dangerously close to Kerbin's?

Again thanks much for this mod

Thank you for using this mod and I'm glad you are enjoying it. The atmosphere scale heights are based on actual physics. I calculated the molar mass of the air based on what Ferram defined as the atmospheric composition in his mod. We calculate scale height = (boltzman constant * Temp in Kelvin) / (molar mass * gravity). Yes we use the default lapse formula which is not an accurate model. RSS uses values based on data collected from the real world. I have a paper that defines a more accurate model but that would require code modification to Kopernicus. At 118k there is a thin atmosphere. As for heat re-entry yes I noticed that too but I think that is more to do with deadly re-entry being watered down. I hope the new version of DRE adds the excitement back.

Sarnus, I see you are playing one of the extend packs.

- - - Updated - - -

I love this mod. Would just like to point out some info that might be useful to put in the OP, since I had a tough time finding it:

To use the standard delta-V map with 10x Kerbol, simply multiply all the stock dV values by sqrt(10), which is about 3.16.

Not a bad idea. I really need to do a real delta-V map. Need to get permission to use of the nice existing maps and update it with my numbers.

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Excellent, downloading now.. Thanks for the update, and if you need any help maintaining it (or rather - just want some additional help on it) just let me know..

I might take you up on that. So a few issues still exist I need to complete. Most important thing is finishing off the bodies in the system. Currently Gilly needs to get its original shape back. Eve and Laythe need work with their height maps. I had work done for Eve but I packaged the wrong height map and the proper one I don't have anymore. I kind of remember what I did. I have a proto Laythe done as well. Gilly I haven't looked at so if you want to tackle it got for it.

[NathanKell]

jsimmons, I think you might have missed a memo.

Scale height no longer works in KSP 1.0. You have to use a pressureCurve etc.

If you're just putting scale heights into the settings file, well, Kopernicus has nothing to do with them and therefore does nothing, so every body will retain its stock atmosphere.

[Retsof]

Hello there people. It's been a while since I played, and before I get back into it I'd like to know if this still has the problem of falling through the runway and/or ground with planes. Thanks!

[jsimmons]

Hello there people. It's been a while since I played, and before I get back into it I'd like to know if this still has the problem of falling through the runway and/or ground with planes. Thanks!

It appears to happen a lot less. I noticed it happened more often with small planes. I will need to give it a try with the latest Kopernicus.

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jsimmons, I think you might have missed a memo.

Scale height no longer works in KSP 1.0. You have to use a pressureCurve etc.

If you're just putting scale heights into the settings file, well, Kopernicus has nothing to do with them and therefore does nothing, so every body will retain its stock atmosphere.

Oh I did not know that. Is Kopernicus capable of calculating the pressureCurve from the thermalCurve? In theory you only need a thermal curve. Even that can be calculated which in my case needs to be done since this is make believe worlds. I still like to base it on real world physics :-) What is the format of the key - altitude, value, ?, ?.

Edited July 30, 2015 by jsimmons
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[NathanKell]

The stock values for Kerbin are 80% Earth, i.e. Kerbin at 8km has the pressure and temperature of Earth (ICAO model, IIRC) at 10km. So for 10x Kerbin, it would make sense IMO to just use RSS's curves wholesale.

Kopernicus does not have the ability to calculate the pressure curve; you can use the barometric formula, but that breaks down high in the atmosphere (~80km on Earth IIRC) and I'm not sure what you'd use as starting values for other bodies.

[jsimmons]

I have have done a lot of reading and research about block body properties and exoplanet atmosphere modeling. First I like to discuss the changes that were needed for the star kerbol. As we know the stock star is totally messed up to the point nothing like it could really exist. Before this research I made a guess at kerbol's radius. Now using the Stephan Boltzmann's law and knowing Kerbin receives 1360 W/m^2 and the temperature of the surface of the star (5860 K) I could calculate the real radius. Next using Stephan Boltzmann's law you can calculate the total output of the star. Using the total output you can calculate the power at any distance from the star. The relation is (power at distance D) = (power output of Star) * (radius of star / distance D) ^ 2 which means solar power curves could be calculated on the fly. Also other law of use is Wien's displacement law which can be used to obtain the peak frequency. In theory that frequency could be mapped to an RGB value for the color of the star. The last nice calculation you can do is calculate the temperature at the surface of a body without a atmosphere using the albedo. The link http://www.dangermouse.net/gurps/science/temps.html shows the function used to calculate the temperature on the planet based on the star's properties and the body's distance from the star.

[jsimmons]

The stock values for Kerbin are 80% Earth, i.e. Kerbin at 8km has the pressure and temperature of Earth (ICAO model, IIRC) at 10km. So for 10x Kerbin, it would make sense IMO to just use RSS's curves wholesale.

Kopernicus does not have the ability to calculate the pressure curve; you can use the barometric formula, but that breaks down high in the atmosphere (~80km on Earth IIRC) and I'm not sure what you'd use as starting values for other bodies.

I can copy earth's parameter's for 10x kerbin. The environments are almost exactly alike. The only difference I saw was the effective temperature of Kerbin was about 10C lower than earth which suggest a slightly different atmosphere. Since I should release a fix version I will just use the default earth values. Now I have done some reading on the topic of exoplanets atmospheres and made some interesting discoveries.

First yes the barometric formula assume a isothermal atmosphere which is not accurate as you pointed out. From from my reading ideal gases polytropic index range is from zero to the adiabatic index for stable atmospheres. Okay it can be greater than the adiabatic but usually that is for cases like a combustion engine. For a planet if the polytropic index is greater than the adiabatic index then the atmosphere is leaking into space. So we can calculate the lowest parts of the atmosphere using dry adiabatic gas laws. Above a certain barrier an isothermal model is used.

Now this model only holds when convection is the primary driver of heat over radiant emission. I read a paper http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/Robinson2014_0.1bar_Tropopause.pdfdealing with exoplanets that proves that the transition layer is alway around .1 bar of pressure. Planets such as Mars lacks the atmospheric pressure to exhibit the stratospheric inversion we see with other worlds. So it does look like we can simulate atmospheres on "created" worlds. If done right KSP can have some of the functionality of Universe Sandbox

[jsimmons]

Updated the release. Using the Earth RSS pressure and temperate values for Kerbin. Updated star Kerbol radius using the Stefan Boltzmann equation. Update the Overhaul release to work with the latest release.

[NathanKell]

Cool!

[Ratzap]

A fresh career save dies when a vessel reaches 70km, it's the old problem of contracts again. You'll probably need to add some contract configurator magic if you want this to work with career mode.

[jsimmons]

A fresh career save dies when a vessel reaches 70km, it's the old problem of contracts again. You'll probably need to add some contract configurator magic if you want this to work with career mode.

Its Kopernicus issue #63 if I remember. Nathan are you okay if I use your Contract Modifier cfg file?

[ThorBeorn]

Just downloaded the new Overhaul version. Atmosphere still seems to end at stock ~69 km. FAR shows zero dynamic pressure at altitudes higher than this. Could you have forgotten to change something, atmo scaleheight or something?

Edit: There's no pressure curve or temperature curve in 10xkerbol.cfg. Have I got something backwards here?

Edited August 3, 2015 by ThorBeorn

[jsimmons]

Just downloaded the new Overhaul version. Atmosphere still seems to end at stock ~69 km. FAR shows zero dynamic pressure at altitudes higher than this. Could you have forgotten to change something, atmo scaleheight or something?

Edit: There's no pressure curve or temperature curve in 10xkerbol.cfg. Have I got something backwards here?

Nope that was my mistake on my part. I just checked on the server that the packages are correct this time. I needed to do a hot fix for career mode anyways.

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Cool!

Thanks Nathan. Also I showed the work I posted about handing exoplanet atmospheres to the Weather mod maintainer. He loved the info. I also pushed out the fix you have for career mode in a new update.

Were did you get the value in the SolarPowerCurve for the second column?

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As a note for the people using the Overhaul version I would recommend using the Scatter mod with it now that I removed the atmospheric scattering setting from Overhaul.

Edited August 3, 2015 by jsimmons

[Tellion]

I already had spreadsheets laid out for 64k so I decided to make some quick OPM compatibility configs for this mod. I downloaded the EVE_7.4 version for that and noticed a few things going through the download folder: There are two RemoteTech Settings .cfgs (those overwrite each other afaik), there are 3 Module Manager versions (MM is awesome but that might be a little superfluous) and, most importantly, an RSS folder containing not only DDS Loader (not needed anymore, correct me if I am wrong) but also a bunch of textures that seem to be present in the 10xKerbol folder also, as well as all of the old RSS .obj files. I didn't look into the other downloads but removing the obsolete stuff might cut file size considerably.

If you want to link to or include the OPM configs (link here), feel absolutely free to do so.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Tellion

[S4qFBxkFFg]

O lawd; I just tried this out and I can see I'll have to start thinking more about my rocket designs - everything is now sub-orbital!

(Seriously - this is some great work - I was impressed it actually worked with all the mods I've installed.)

[jsimmons]

I already had spreadsheets laid out for 64k so I decided to make some quick OPM compatibility configs for this mod. I downloaded the EVE_7.4 version for that and noticed a few things going through the download folder: There are two RemoteTech Settings .cfgs (those overwrite each other afaik), there are 3 Module Manager versions (MM is awesome but that might be a little superfluous) and, most importantly, an RSS folder containing not only DDS Loader (not needed anymore, correct me if I am wrong) but also a bunch of textures that seem to be present in the 10xKerbol folder also, as well as all of the old RSS .obj files. I didn't look into the other downloads but removing the obsolete stuff might cut file size considerably.

If you want to link to or include the OPM configs (link here), feel absolutely free to do so.

My zip files being generated merged the new work with the older work. I fixed it now. Also I included your work.