[1.0.5] Snacks! Kerbal simplified life support v0.3.5

[tater]

On the reality of life support for humans, the truth is that outside of earth orbit the only viable way to support human life would be a closed loop system, food/water/02 are consumed, the used food/water/02 are fed into a habitat that recycles them into food/water/02, repeat.

Yeah, the assumptions in that link that replaced by accidental post assume 90% reclamation.

My first post just above also assumed that 100% reclamation of air/water. The remaining 1.2 kg (for a Kerbal) of yummy snacks is another issue. My ballpark assumed none of the chow was recycled (save the water content).

[tgruetzm]

I installed the plugin and love the idea, it is not working for me. Their are no snacks in any of my command modules and no slider to change that, 0.25 with the following mods

ToolBar

Asteroids Resources

Better Science Labs

Ambient Light

Chatterer

CIT

Community Resource Pack

Engineer

Enhanced Nav Ball

Fine Print

Fire Spitter

Fuel Wings

Hooligan Labs (Air Ships)

KAS

Kerbal Alarm Clock

RCS FX

Nano Gauges

Precise Node

SCANSat

Science Alert

Select Root

Science Collector

Tac Fuel

Umbra Explorer Pack

VNG

I am going to try a new instal with only snacks to see what happens. if that works I will add in the mods I like until it breaks again.

Tested: No Joy unable to add snacks in VAB and Jeb was hungry and had no snacks.

Do you have module manager installed? Can you confirm that module manager appears to be loading correctly?

[madlemur]

This is the error that Snacks is throwing when, I assume, Jeb is trying to eat one, I still have no explanation for my lack of power draining while not in charge mode (I checked to make sure alt+F12 did not have a cheat enabled and there was none turned on). Hopefully it helps some what, the only other messages I seen were from timewarping and pausing the game.

Snacks - FixedUpdate: Object reference not set to an instance of an object at Planetarium.GetUniversalTime () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Snacks.SnackController.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

This was taken from a career mode save, but it was the same error that was seen in sandbox as well.

I've seen the same thing since I started using Snacks early on, but I've always had bigger issues (and much smaller framerates) to deal with... I've seen in it in career and sandbox games.

I also see that it's a log message, and not a warning or error... But still, that's an ominous message if it's not indicative of something wrong.

[Geschosskopf]

As a reality check, NASA talks about 1.83kg/day of food, leaving 28.77kg of water and air. The latter 2 are to be mostly recovered and reused. The total food/water/air is 30.6kg/day, BTW.

Kerbals ain't humans and so don't have human biological needs. We're free to make up whatever we want for them .

[Superfluous J]

Kerbals ain't humans and so don't have human biological needs. We're free to make up whatever we want for them .

Agreed in principle but It's never a bad idea to at least use reality and what we know as a starting point. It also is never a bad idea to make it possible to get manned missions to reasonably work.

[HafCoJoe]

Awesome! Adding to KSP now! I might end up using this in my stream actually. I've always liked life supports but deep down I think kerbals are plant like and thus need very little resources and thus also can hibernate in space. - TAC seems overly complex to make a simple streaming tool but this... that's a different story.

[C.A.Sizemore]

Do you have module manager installed? Can you confirm that module manager appears to be loading correctly?

I don't use module manager. is it needed?

[Superfluous J]

I don't use module manager. is it needed?

Yes. It adds snacks to the modules and probably does other stuff too.

[Night Lone]

5thHorseman, just started to watch your Quest For Snacks, pretty good, I'm surprised you don't have more subscribers, though, I will say this, you have got me yelling "NOO! Don't!" at my computer a lot

Also, this mod is great! Love the idea, waiting for some more awesome features Thanks tgruetzm!!

Edited October 24, 2014 by Night Lone

[mckamx]

...I was aware of the fact that anything beyond Duna would be pretty much impossible currently...

I have to disagree. It takes planning, and sometimes snack resupply missions, but I have explored the Jool system while keeping the explorer supplied with snacks. It does mean that crew sizes have to be small, and you have to carry a lot of snacks along, but it is doable. I currently have an outbound mission to Jool carrying about 1900 snacks for a single crewmember. I have been using Whyren's snackparts, specially the snack-purpose logistics module. I don't use the greenhouses as I feel that they make it too easy to keep the explorers supplied.

[Ph34rb0t]

KASA food must be extremely bad because my Kerbals don't seem to want it.

I've added Snacks to an existing savegame and the vessel in question is idling in orbit around Kerbin, so the lack of hunger might just be a limitation regarding Snacks and lack of vessel-related SOI updating(?).

(Or the Kerbals just refuse to give up their regular photosynthesis.)

Just wanted to ask if this behaviour has been recorded before and if it has the prospect of going away when I launch my next crewed vessel.

Disregard that. They just had some and didn't puke. Hooray!

Edited October 25, 2014 by Ph34rb0t

[tater]

Any ideas for what to do with transfer for bases? Right now I've been landing close by, then editing my persistent save to move XX snacks from the resupply lander to my base. It's something kerbals would do on their own, ideally. I know I can get KAS I suppose, I was trying to keep the mod count low.

[mckamx]

Any ideas for what to do with transfer for bases?

I use two different techniques, depending on the circumstances:

1. Use a rover with a grabber to transfer snacks, fuel, etc. between the resupply lander and the base

2. If the base has engines and enough fuel to make it into orbit, then send it into orbit, dock with the resupply vessel, and re-land.

It is theoretically possible to dock a vessel with a landed base, but I have never managed it. The grabber lets you "dock" without worrying about docking port locations. I'm not a good enough pilot to grab the base while landing, so I use a rover to shuttle resources.

[Superfluous J]

Any ideas for what to do with transfer for bases? Right now I've been landing close by, then editing my persistent save to move XX snacks from the resupply lander to my base. It's something kerbals would do on their own, ideally. I know I can get KAS I suppose, I was trying to keep the mod count low.

It is theoretically possible to dock a vessel with a landed base, but I have never managed it. The grabber lets you "dock" without worrying about docking port locations. I'm not a good enough pilot to grab the base while landing, so I use a rover to shuttle resources.

I've had good luck with the Vertical Velocity Control mod (which I know adds a mod but it's a small one, much smaller than KAS) so I could set my lander to hover over the base, using rcs or tilting to get right over the docking port and than lower down. Works great with flat land and/or squat landers, not so good on a 10 degree slope with a tall rocket Takes a lot of practice but you feel like a boss.

I've also (with less repeatable success) done it with the NavHud mod so I can see my direction, target, and docking port alignment all on the screen I'm looking at while trying not to hit the ground. Again, it's another mod but again, it's a much smaller one than KAS.

Though honestly KAS is so fun...

[tater]

I use two different techniques, depending on the circumstances:

1. Use a rover with a grabber to transfer snacks, fuel, etc. between the resupply lander and the base

2. If the base has engines and enough fuel to make it into orbit, then send it into orbit, dock with the resupply vessel, and re-land.

It is theoretically possible to dock a vessel with a landed base, but I have never managed it. The grabber lets you "dock" without worrying about docking port locations. I'm not a good enough pilot to grab the base while landing, so I use a rover to shuttle resources.

I guess I can do the grabber thing. I have no desire to hover, it's not something I'd expect any actual base to even consider (let's put a dangerous rocket above our house!). I'll make a rover, the grabber never occurred to me. They should have something like connected living spaces that says if is is landed, and within XXX meters, it is connected.

Least I know what I'm doing tonight, editing the saves is a PITA, but up until now it seemed the most realistic option

[Superfluous J]

I have no desire to hover, it's not something I'd expect any actual base to even consider (let's put a dangerous rocket above our house!).

Note: when I did this I was actually using KAS and I had the landing "pad" (essentially a docking port on landing legs) a good distance from the base but connected via KAS pipes. You could do similar without KAS if you're willing to knock together a base with docking ports and girders/struts/structural tubes. I've never wanted to muck around with all that (hence a quick KAS pipe to get the job done).

The rover thing works fine, but you may have to take multiple trips or maybe make a Hitchhiker rover.

Now I want to make a hitchhiker rover.

[tater]

I made a rover with a couple snack boxes and a small fuel tank for good measure so I could swap fuel from various landers (vs habitat landers that no longer need fuel) and get at least 1 out of there (landing several in one area is rather more fuel intense for me).

I forgot how much rovers stink. If my land rover behaved like one of these I'd have been dead a few years ago.

[Superfluous J]

Oh yeah if you're on Minmus or a smaller world, ick. I'd reconsider the hover-over-the-docking-port idea

[Night Lone]

Just a thought, too keep in line with mass conservation, would it be a trouble that Snacks would produce Trash (or byproducts of some sort)? Might help with ideas of making snacks some how? (greenhouses or something)

[tater]

Waste is not critical, IMHO. Liquid waste can have water recovered with pretty high efficiency, and solid waste could either be dumped, or in the case of a greenhouse, used as fertilizer.

[Night Lone]

Yes, but with a greenhouse, you'd still see the mass of all the snacks, plus the mass of the greenhouse. But my main concern is being simple (with Snacks) but have some sense to it; Also, it'll make something like a greenhouse for longer missions more sensible since you'll have the byproducts to use, instead of pretending they're just there

[Lunaran]

The only resource in KSP that is still unlimited is time: you can send Jeb anywhere cheaply if you're willing to wait decades for slingshots and encounters, and he'll spend those decades happily strapped in his pod. Life support mods all go about limiting that resource in various ways, some with more complexity than others, but the core change to the game is still nothing more than imposing a time limit on Kerbals.

You can mitigate it and stretch your limit by trading weight or electricity or other resources, but mechanically you don't need more than one green resource bar for it, because the bar is just a timer. The main strength of snacks is still that it's one resource, period. At least, the thing I like about Snacks is that it's just one resource.

[Night Lone]

The only resource in KSP that is still unlimited is time: you can send Jeb anywhere cheaply if you're willing to wait decades for slingshots and encounters, and he'll spend those decades happily strapped in his pod. Life support mods all go about limiting that resource in various ways, some with more complexity than others, but the core change to the game is still nothing more than imposing a time limit on Kerbals.

You can mitigate it and stretch your limit by trading weight or electricity or other resources, but mechanically you don't need more than one green resource bar for it, because the bar is just a timer. The main strength of snacks is still that it's one resource, period. At least, the thing I like about Snacks is that it's just one resource.

You sir, have a VERY good point. I'll be quiet

[madlemur]

This is the error that Snacks is throwing when, I assume, Jeb is trying to eat one, I still have no explanation for my lack of power draining while not in charge mode (I checked to make sure alt+F12 did not have a cheat enabled and there was none turned on). Hopefully it helps some what, the only other messages I seen were from timewarping and pausing the game.

Snacks - FixedUpdate: Object reference not set to an instance of an object at Planetarium.GetUniversalTime () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Snacks.SnackController.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

This was taken from a career mode save, but it was the same error that was seen in sandbox as well.

I've seen the same thing since I started using Snacks early on, but I've always had bigger issues (and much smaller framerates) to deal with... I've seen in it in career and sandbox games.

I also see that it's a log message, and not a warning or error... But still, that's an ominous message if it's not indicative of something wrong.

Ah! I see the problem (I think)...

In SnackController.cs line 185 (FixedUpdate), currentTime is initialized at declaration, and I'm guessing that there is no Planetarium (or at least, no way to get the universal time) if you're in the VAB/SPC or during loading. I'd suggest initializing it to 0.0 and then testing to see if Planetarium.GetUniversalTime is available before calling it.

        void FixedUpdate()
        {
            try
            {


                double currentTime = 0.0;
                // If Planetarium.GetUniversalTime() is available, set currentTime


                if (currentTime > snackTime)
                {

Edited November 13, 2014 by madlemur
Code

[JamesL86]

Just spent a good long time reading through this thread and testing out the mod, so here is some feedback:

I like this mod! It is simple, but more importantly, it fits into the game unlike many other mods that try to shoehorn the human universe in.

Specific feedback:

I would be in the camp that would see kerbals die from lack of snacks. I mean maybe I watch Danny's vids too much but death and kerbals seem to go hand in hand.

I would like to see a snack container added to the base mod and here is why. Sure, I agree with the reasoning behind restricting storage to habs and pods. However, and don't take this personally, I don't like the idea of a mod that requires other mods simply because the author does not agree with certain play styles. I mean its your mod, but I can see where some folks might be put off by that attitude. Like I said though, I happen to agree with your view point, mostly. I would also say that containers are needed in the base mod for resupply missions. Again, I see your point about the habs being like the resupply tubs that visit the ISS. That being said, kerbal-kind would have no such concept and thus would, in my opinion, probably rather just strap a rocket to a box of snacks and hope it makes it to the station. Its more, Kerbally, to me at least. My last point on containers being in the base mod is that, if I were a modder and could do this stuff, I'd want to give a really good basic all purpose toolkit to the folks downloading my mod without having to direct them to other folks to get things they might want.

I like the idea of a snack generator, to a point. My only concern with using surface samples for this would be orbital installations around bodies other than Kerbin. Resupply of these would not be possible for the most part if you need samples to make snacks. Though, to tie into my previous point, lightweight snack boxes would make resupply of these far flung bases easier. This leads me to my final critique...

While a one resource system is nice for simplicity's sake, a two part system if done properly would not be too overly complex I don't think. I feel that I can tie all of my points together with a second resource, being snack ingredients. Snack ingredients would be stored in snack containers. The density of the snack containers would be more space efficient than snacks stored in habs and pods. However, the snack ingredients have to be made into snacks before they can be consumed. For simplicity, you could simply have the oven for the snacks and the container for the ingredients be one unit. Or, you could have an oven part separate. This could also be tied into the surface sample idea you had by giving snacks made from samples a higher yield than that of snack ingredients or some other mechanic.

So to sum up, adding a second resource that can be converted into snacks that is only stored in containers would, I feel, satisfy pretty much all requests and suggestions I have read in this thread thus far, and keep it just about as simple as it already is.

Pseudo Edit: Just as I was about to hit "post", I thought of something. You want to use surface samples to make snacks in the lab right? How about use the aforementioned container idea I just laid out as synthetic samples or "Kerbin Samples". This would be a really elegant solution to the whole problem and only require one extra part, that being the sample pod. This plays directly into your idea while giving a few more options for players and sticking well into the overall idea of the mod. It might even be worth exploring the idea of using a "sample" resource specifically for your oven anyway. Just add the menu button to the EVA GUI to collect a snack sample instead of using the science sample thingy already in-game.