So... Spaceplane Plus is added to the game!

[SiliconPyro]

Hope we'll have LFO MK2 or MK3. So stock shuttle without Debug Mode will be real.

In this picture:

The tanks with the dark bars on them are LFO. The identically sized tanks without them are liquid fuel only. I really hope that ends up in-game.

[Rowsdower]

Those spaceplanes parts are absolutely gorgeous and I'm glad to see them in game. Time for me to expand my stock only horizon a bit .

Right now my real question is what about the mk3 parts!!! Is there ANY solid information a mod or dev or someone on the inside could give? I've heard the line is being "scrapped" but no more than that. What do you mean by "the line"? The standard mk3 part size, or just the parts?

The current set of parts is headed for retirement. There will be a full set of new MK3 parts in their place.

[SiliconPyro]

The current set of parts is headed for retirement. There will be a full set of new MK3 parts in their place.

But what everyone wants to know is whether 2.5m parts will fit inside Mk3 parts (assuming cargo bays are included).

[Technical Ben]

In this picture:

http://i.imgur.com/SZ5WV1M.jpg

The tanks with the dark bars on them are LFO. The identically sized tanks without them are liquid fuel only. I really hope that ends up in-game.

Possible "tweakables" to just swap out fuel?

[SiliconPyro]

Possible "tweakables" to just swap out fuel?

Well, you can already tweak fuel amounts, so if the weight of the empty LFO tank isn't too bad, you could just remove all the Oxidizer and you're looking at a viable atmospheric tank. Might be a little short on capacity. Just look at the FL-T400 vs the Mk1 Fuselage tank. The FL-T400 is heavier empty, but holds more fuel (180 vs 150). Most of the loaded weight comes from the oxidizer.

[Alshain]

Possible "tweakables" to just swap out fuel?

I would like to see that too, for all tank parts, simply to reduce the total part count. Have 1 tank with LFO, remove the oxidizer with tweakables and that will increase the amount of fuel you can put in it, now you have a jet fuel tank. It seems so simple but I don't know how the backend works with their tweakable system. I'm not sure if it can dynamically change like that.

EDIT: tweakables not breakables. Stupid spell check.

[Rowsdower]

But what everyone wants to know is whether 2.5m parts will fit inside Mk3 parts (assuming cargo bays are included).

Can't quite answer that one yet. I'll get more info on it as development progresses.

[NecroBones]

No clipping. It could very well have been fixed since.

I just played with it today, and saw some trouble with it. My problem was with parts that can attach radially, as well as with inline attachment nodes (science jr. for instance). Parts that only attach inline (battery for instance) snap right in.

But then again, sometimes that's a problem when attaching those kinds of parts, when you already have a complex design and you're trying to fit it in between other things. It's not a problem with the cargo bay, it's a problem with how attachment is currently done in general. I do wish those parts would treat the inline nodes preferentially over the radial nodes.

Edited August 20, 2014 by NecroBones

[regex]

Can't quite answer that one yet. I'll get more info on it as development progresses.

Just remember, and please pass on, that functionality is essential for ~space shuttles~.

[Mesons]

Hope we'll have LFO MK2 or MK3. So stock shuttle without Debug Mode will be real.

The addition of SP+ has got me more excited about 0.25 than I have been about any update since I started playing KSP! Considering I like to play with just visual-only mods, this is a pretty substantial upgrade to the game in my eyes.

The current set of parts is headed for retirement. There will be a full set of new MK3 parts in their place.

Almost as exciting! I like those parts but they are practically unusable with how I generally design my planes. I'm very much looking forward to greatly expanded options in terms of spaceplane design!

Edited August 20, 2014 by Mesons
Added ! to convey my excitement better!

[Tiberion]

Mk3 parts would really need to be quite a bit larger to fit 2.5m parts. My shuttle mod (link in my sig) is based on the Mk3 parts, but quite a while back I scaled the shuttle versions up just so they would hold 2.5m cargo:

So, the inset image shows how much bigger the "shuttle-sized" cockpit is than the stock, and thats just big enough to hold a 2.5m module with the barest of attachments to it.

So it's really like a "Mk4" size, another step up. A mk2/SP+ adapter would look silly trying to adapt to something that big, so there probably still needs to be that Mk3 tier of parts that cannot hold 2.5m cargo and then a new set of shuttle parts beyond that if they want to add 2.5m cargo capability.

If they're really adding cargobays then they need to add the ability from editor extensions to disable surface attachment in the VAB temporarily so you can place things on nodes inside the bays instead of attaching to the bottom of the bay. It's REALLY annoying otherwise.

And I'll say it again, adding SP+ makes it VERY important to get that new aero/lift/atmosphere model started ASAP.

The way SP+ uses winglet partmodules to simulate body-lift is very hackish, and it makes things highly inconvenient for modders who NEED to be able to assume that something that is a winglet is in fact a winglet and not a fuselage piece. I'm not faulting Porkjet for using the work-around, we all use these things to adapt to the limits of the game engine, but if its becoming stock, it needs to be properly done by the devs which means a new lift/aero model, which is SORELY needed.

[HafCoJoe]

I'll say it again, adding SP+ makes it VERY important to get that new aero/lift/atmosphere model started ASAP.

The way SP+ uses winglet partmodules to simulate body-lift is very hackish, and it makes things highly inconvenient for modders who NEED to be able to assume that something that is a winglet is in fact a winglet and not a fuselage piece. I'm not faulting Porkjet for using the work-around, we all use these things to adapt to the limits of the game engine, but if its becoming stock, it needs to be properly done by the devs which means a new lift/aero model, which is SORELY needed.

Indeed. I wonder if the parts will lose their lifting body aspect as a work around. I haven't used SP+ before but that sounds like an awesome "cheat" on porkjets side. I wonder what it will mean to the aerodynamics model too.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Avera9eJoe

[Pecan]

You know, from the sound of the hype-train my next tutorial is going to be so easy. "This is what you ship must look like. If your ship doesn't look like this you're having fun the wrong way."

[regex]

You know, from the sound of the hype-train my next tutorial is going to be so easy. "This is what you ship must look like. If your ship doesn't look like this you're having fun the wrong way."

Why's that? People want proper aerodynamics and not a completely broken, utterly unintuitive, and thoroughly idiotic system? Or is it something else?

[Pecan]

Something else - I'm just thinking the "Spaceplane+" hype is making it sound like the way things "must" be done. Just the hype, you understand, no complaints otherwise; I'm just saying this is not the one and only answer to everything so calm down a bit.

[regex]

Something else - I'm just thinking the "Spaceplane+" hype is making it sound like the way things "must" be done. Just the hype, you understand, no complaints otherwise; I'm just saying this is not the one and only answer to everything so calm down a bit.

Why is Spaceplane+ going to make everyone's stuff look the same? In general I'm seeing people applaud the styling of the mod which, I must admit, looks quite good. Additional parts are always great for the stock game, especially when there aren't procedural tanks and such to help.

E: Sorry if I'm dense or something but I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Cryptic posts aren't really helpful.

Edited August 20, 2014 by regex

[Wanderfound]

Why is Spaceplane+ going to make everyone's stuff look the same? In general I'm seeing people applaud the styling of the mod which, I must admit, looks quite good. Additional parts are always great for the stock game, especially when there aren't procedural tanks and such to help.

The SP+ stuff does fit together with itself so well that there is a tendency for people to start out by building a dozen close variations on an SR-71. But they'll get bored with that eventually, and it isn't hard to get more creative with a bit of thought.

[Master Tao]

The SP+ stuff does fit together with itself so well that there is a tendency for people to start out by building a dozen close variations on an SR-71. But they'll get bored with that eventually, and it isn't hard to get more creative with a bit of thought.

Take another look at the Better SSTO Spaceplane challenge. There are currently five entries using SP+, and they all have distinctive looks and seem nothing like an SR-71.

[Wanderfound]

Take another look at the Better SSTO Spaceplane challenge. There are currently five entries using SP+, and they all have distinctive looks and seem nothing like an SR-71.

I am aware of that; as mentioned, it's not hard to get creative if you try.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90747-Kerbodyne-SSTO-Division-Omnibus-Thread

But you do see an awful lot of "hey, I made a spaceplane that looks like an SR-71!" on the SP+ thread. Made a few myself, to start with...

[Pecan]

Why is Spaceplane+ going to make everyone's stuff look the same? In general I'm seeing people applaud the styling of the mod which, I must admit, looks quite good. Additional parts are always great for the stock game, especially when there aren't procedural tanks and such to help.

E: Sorry if I'm dense or something but I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Cryptic posts aren't really helpful.

I think you're over-thinking my comment. It seems like a lot of people are banking on Spaceplane+ (stock-variant) to be the solution to all their design questions. I'm just saying; calm down. I think it would be a pity if we all built almost exactly the same ship for every mission.

Spaceplane+ is beautiful and the parts are useful and important, I welcome their (or something similar) incorporation into stock, especially a payload bay. It would be terrible though if, as the hype seems to have it, they were the one true way.

[regex]

It would be terrible though if, as the hype seems to have it, they were the one true way.

Yeah, I don't get that from the hype. Fair enough.

[Pecan]

Yeah, I don't get that from the hype. Fair enough.

/me nods.

That's all it is; certainly no complaints here about Spaceplane+ or any of the other developments.

Coincidentally, before the announcement I was just wondering if I should install some parts mods so I could make decent-looking planes and had decided SP+; then decided not to burden my aged PC with the parts after all. Now I can live in trepidation of whether it'll be able to run 0.25 ^^. Whatever - KSP keeps getting better and better and even if it didn't it's still more than earned it's keep.

[Franklin]

Also noteworthy in the pic Parkaboy posted above for those who haven't tried the mod:

Mk2 probe core (thin "slice" at bottom left)

Three Mk2-1.25m adapters, one a bicoupler, all containing LFO.

Two sizes of fuel tanks in LFO and LF variants

Two sizes of cargo bays

Docking port enclosed in cargo bay, also holds 150 monoprop

Two intakes, a 1.25m conical one (looks better than the stock RAM) and a radial mounted one.

Wings and control surfaces

Edit to add: I_Killed_Jeb: Yes, the fuselage parts have lift ratings.

These are all fantastic inclusions, what with adapters and couplers containing fuel, and a cargo bay containing monoprop, but there are no stock parts that have these same sensibilities, so I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the minor adjustments Squad will make to conform these parks to stock is to remove these nice inclusions.

Ideally they'd go the reverse route and make all other stock couplers and adapters fuel-filled as well, but I'm optimistically skeptical. Nerfing new parts is easier than buffing all existing parts, typically.

[dbmorpher]

These are all fantastic inclusions, what with adapters and couplers containing fuel, and a cargo bay containing monoprop, but there are no stock parts that have these same sensibilities, so I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the minor adjustments Squad will make to conform these parks to stock is to remove these nice inclusions.

Ideally they'd go the reverse route and make all other stock couplers and adapters fuel-filled as well, but I'm optimistically skeptical. Nerfing new parts is easier than buffing all existing parts, typically.

Seeing that Squad is the awesome team it is and how a config edit could fix those problems I'd go with the latter.

[Rocketscience101]

If these do end up being lifting bodies, my space shuttle is going to be basically a RCS docking port fuel continuation, and then just a cargo bay, which will contain parachutes and batteries along with the payload, no need for those ultra heavy engines anymore.