[0.24.2] Interstellar Lite - Tweakscale Integration [v0.12.3][Sept 7]

[Alewx]

The difference is largely down to personal preference. Interstellar tries to portray, relatively realistically, what certain advanced technologies would be like. As a result, Interstellar parts have an incredibly wide range of capabilities.

Lite is less interested in realistically portraying technologies with real numbers and tries to balance all the parts more into line with what you might more usually expect in KSP.

Both approaches are valid, it just depends on personal preference.

Does this also go for usability of the mods?

[AetherGoddess]

Does this also go for usability of the mods?

i'm not sure what you mean here, so i'm going to theorize wildly and hope i hit.

both KSPi and KSPi_lite are based on the same core, that is, KSPi .11 for .23.5, so they share lots of the same parts and resources. KSPi_lite went down the path of play-ability, and as such there are pretty dramatic changes to the way it operates, and there is a lot less game-play impacting complexity. a good example of this is the simplified reactor design: where KSPi is concerned with getting the reactor design as close to real as possible, KSPi_lite takes the tact that reactors are a game mechanic for converting nuclear fuels into power, and removes the complex fuel cycles and unclear part interactions that often causes unfun activities, like having to revert to editor because your space plane can't start it's reactor without it's reactor running.

i didn't realize what a problem for usability this was until recently, but way back in .22, i had to redo a complex space station servicing mission because i had chosen the wrong fuel mode for my fission-based station power module, and couldn't run the reactor i had just spent and hour ascending, orbiting, intercepting and docking with my station. after having messed with KSPi for more then a year now, i think i have a good understanding of the various nuclear fuels and their cycles, but i was NOT happy at the time.

hopefully this answered your question?

[Alewx]

i'm not sure what you mean here, so i'm going to theorize wildly and hope i hit.

both KSPi and KSPi_lite are based on the same core, that is, KSPi .11 for .23.5, so they share lots of the same parts and resources. KSPi_lite went down the path of play-ability, and as such there are pretty dramatic changes to the way it operates, and there is a lot less game-play impacting complexity. a good example of this is the simplified reactor design: where KSPi is concerned with getting the reactor design as close to real as possible, KSPi_lite takes the tact that reactors are a game mechanic for converting nuclear fuels into power, and removes the complex fuel cycles and unclear part interactions that often causes unfun activities, like having to revert to editor because your space plane can't start it's reactor without it's reactor running.

i didn't realize what a problem for usability this was until recently, but way back in .22, i had to redo a complex space station servicing mission because i had chosen the wrong fuel mode for my fission-based station power module, and couldn't run the reactor i had just spent and hour ascending, orbiting, intercepting and docking with my station. after having messed with KSPi for more then a year now, i think i have a good understanding of the various nuclear fuels and their cycles, but i was NOT happy at the time.

hopefully this answered your question?

Exactly but KSPIL not only reduced complexity but also improved the usability on the playerside. Naming tweakscale here is the most obvious Point.

What I would hope for would be tweakscale in the KSPI version or other little tweaks that improve the handling of the mod.

BUT I didn't try 0.12 so there might already be some of them.

But your trip for the exchance of the fuel is a good example, I like it as it shows the complexity of the mod, but the handling, how you do that, there is potential, don't you think?

[Remi]

I had radiators, but there wasn't any "start research" button when I right clicked it...

Sorry if this seems obvious, but did you have it manned with two Kerbals?

[taniel0401]

Sorry if this seems obvious, but did you have it manned with two Kerbals?

I had it manned with two very smart Kerbals...

[JeffreyCor]

Honestly the TweakScale integration is the only thing I don't like about KSPIL. The more gameplay focus of KSPIL is vastly preferred. Though I have concerned over prior statements that now that KSPI has been officially updated KSPIL would be decreased and possibly discontinued after .25.

[Sophistry]

Honestly the TweakScale integration is the only thing I don't like about KSPIL. The more gameplay focus of KSPIL is vastly preferred. Though I have concerned over prior statements that now that KSPI has been officially updated KSPIL would be decreased and possibly discontinued after .25.

I know what you mean about Tweakscale. From things Wave has said though, KSPIL grew out of his personal-use homebrew version, so unless new KSPI perfectly mates with what he wants from the mod he's likely to keep making his own version.

I think AetherGoddess's suggestion of Wave and Fractal working together would be the best for everyone though, but that seems unlikely to happen. As for my personal preference, I like the fact Interstellar's different reactor sizes behave in drastically different ways, so my choice is clear. (Sadly. Wave's work is really impressive)

[Alewx]

I know what you mean about Tweakscale. From things Wave has said though, KSPIL grew out of his personal-use homebrew version, so unless new KSPI perfectly mates with what he wants from the mod he's likely to keep making his own version.

I think AetherGoddess's suggestion of Wave and Fractal working together would be the best for everyone though, but that seems unlikely to happen. As for my personal preference, I like the fact Interstellar's different reactor sizes behave in drastically different ways, so my choice is clear. (Sadly. Wave's work is really impressive)

The different behaving of the reactors and generators should still be possible with tweakscale, but the real first time to try is at the weekend for me.

[AetherGoddess]

[...] As for my personal preference, I like the fact Interstellar's different reactor sizes behave in drastically different ways, so my choice is clear. (Sadly. Wave's work is really impressive)

Strangely enough, i'm having the opposite reaction. The more i watch the KSPi updates, the less and less i am interested in the "complicated" version. Radiation belts are interesting, but certainly not worth all the complications fractal seems so excited about, new reactor system that's functionally indistinguishable from the previous reactor system, colored plasma jets? it seems like gameplay is being lost in all the minutia.

[Sophistry]

Strangely enough, i'm having the opposite reaction. The more i watch the KSPi updates, the less and less i am interested in the "complicated" version. Radiation belts are interesting, but certainly not worth all the complications fractal seems so excited about, new reactor system that's functionally indistinguishable from the previous reactor system, colored plasma jets? it seems like gameplay is being lost in all the minutia.

I agree that Interstellar's development trajectory doesn't look amazing. There is a reason, after all, that I'm still following Lite updates! Don't get me wrong though, I do like coloured plasma jets, because I'm shallow and like shiny things.

Basically my three desires from both iterations of Interstellar are 1) Shiny, fun and more convenient ways of going to the rest of the solar system. 2) Reasons To Do Stuff (Strange/Challenging missions, adding purpose to ground bases and orbital stations) 3) Longer tech tree so I have a reason to leave the Kerbin SOI.

While both still do these things, it's basically a choice of which has the least niggling issues.

I probably needed more time with Lite to fully explore it (That and I easily get bored and start new saves and delete my old ones) But I got rid of Lite because Fractal had the telescope fixed (ish), Wave had gotten rid of the inline radiator, which I tend to use on small probes for both heat radiation, and to add surface area for more stuff. Finally, the thermal engines have never really gotten me interested, so I only use reactors for electrical energy; that being the case, making about half the reactors identical in this regard sort of put me off Wave's version a bit. Especially as it seems a bit easier to get large amounts of power from Fractal's powerplants when you get the appropriate upgrades.

Bleurgh, stream of consciousness, but I hope I've given a clear picture as to what I like from my Interstellar(s) and why.

[toomarc]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I just put a solar array in an orbit around sun. I'm getting energy flow in the 1,200,000 -1,300,000 range. (guessing that would equate to roughly 1.2 - 1.3 Gw). But I'm not getting any additional power to my network. Am I missing something to convert the standard EC overflow to the Megawatt system, or is this not implemented. If not, is this intentional or on the to do list?

[Gecko99]

Hi Wave

Please Bro, whatever you do, don't let KSPI-lite die... I can't go through another massive mod change and this mod has been the core of my space program with its microwave power system and the hugely increased playability that is offered here as opposed to the original version of KSPI.

So big thanks and keep up the awesome work!

Regards

The Gecko

[Gecko99]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I just put a solar array in an orbit around sun. I'm getting energy flow in the 1,200,000 -1,300,000 range. (guessing that would equate to roughly 1.2 - 1.3 Gw). But I'm not getting any additional power to my network. Am I missing something to convert the standard EC overflow to the Megawatt system, or is this not implemented. If not, is this intentional or on the to do list?

Hi there

Im guessing that your satellite has enough battery capacity to transmit everything it receives from the solar panels? Assuming this is so, there needs to be a receiver pointing at the satellites general direction, and there needs to be line of sight, the hassle there is when the satellite goes behind the Sun, then you get no power, unless you have relays.

So assuming you have done all these correctly, there will be additional power to the network, but not a huge amount as about ~50% of the power bleeds away over the distance. If you're interested, use Near Future Solar's giant OKEB 500 pannels and move the satellite really close to the sun, like 140 000 km, you'll get huge power and its all for free

Regards

The Gecko

[Gecko99]

Strangely enough, i'm having the opposite reaction. The more i watch the KSPi updates, the less and less i am interested in the "complicated" version. Radiation belts are interesting, but certainly not worth all the complications fractal seems so excited about, new reactor system that's functionally indistinguishable from the previous reactor system, colored plasma jets? it seems like gameplay is being lost in all the minutia.

Couldn't agree more! Im interested in the radiation belts being another hurdle to have to deal with in the game play, like shielding the crew compartments against radiation, but it doesn't need to be overly complex...

There's a reason why x3 and the sort never took off for everyone - too complex, and not everyone gets massive pleasure from conducting a cosmic orchestra of networks and economy, but something more visceral and playable (ie : KSPi_lite ) is alot easier to grasp and fundamentally very much the same! just my two cents worth

Regards

The Gecko

[Sophistry]

There's a reason why x3 and the sort never took off for everyone - too complex, and not everyone gets massive pleasure from conducting a cosmic orchestra of networks and economy, but something more visceral and playable (ie : KSPi_lite ) is alot easier to grasp and fundamentally very much the same! just my two cents worth

X3's problem was it took a reasonably complex (But certainly not too complex) set of systems and put a really bad interface in the way with little or no tutorial.

I'd also like to point out that the desire for a "more visceral and playable" experience is how we went from X3 to X: Rebirth.

Basically, IMHO, the critical thing that both Interstellar and Lite have to get right (Beyond my personal three essentials on the previous page) is to make energy production interesting and engaging. I know it's difficult to make generating power fun and hip to the kids, but it's like the boring Christmas tree upon which the fancy baubles and tinsel hang. This is why, for me, Wave's simplification of the reactors sent me back to Interstellar, because like I said on the previous page I don't really use the thermal engines, so his changes basically made about half the reactors surplus to requirement for me.

On the other hand, I really do like the removal of different fuel modes for the reactors, and switching to simplified resources that better fit with other mods was really helpful. So in short, I'm stuck between one option that's too fiddly and complicated to be perfect for me, and another that strips too much out. Depressed sigh

[JeffreyCor]

The biggest problem I have about tweakscale integration is it does not provide the values as it does having a part in the parts list. Individual parts you get what the performance specs are of that part. But with TS you only get the base values and must take a guess what the new values are when the size is changed. Now if somehow a way the rescaled values were presented after scaling that would made a huge difference.

[AetherGoddess]

The biggest problem I have about tweakscale integration is it does not provide the values as it does having a part in the parts list. Individual parts you get what the performance specs are of that part. But with TS you only get the base values and must take a guess what the new values are when the size is changed. Now if somehow a way the rescaled values were presented after scaling that would made a huge difference.

Ya, so this is a real issue with tweakscale, because scaling one part in necessarily scaling one and only part, you get a linear-esk curve of performance which doesn't look like the "real" counterbalanced S-curve-like performance curves you'd expect from scaling up a thing:

REF: https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

but there is another trade-off. the "real" scaling has memory, complexity and systems costs. each separate model is more texture ram, more costs to balance, more eccentricity to debug. where procedural rescaling means something like Procedural Fairings can do everything from 62 CM to 5 M diameters from 1 M to 200 M in length, in 5 or 6 parts, you need something like 30 or 40 parts to do it statically.

[...] On the other hand, I really do like the removal of different fuel modes for the reactors, and switching to simplified resources that better fit with other mods was really helpful. So in short, I'm stuck between one option that's too fiddly and complicated to be perfect for me, and another that strips too much out. Depressed sigh

such is the costs of building spaceships like legos; legos aren't like real engineering. who would play with legos if they were made out of steel and required welding equipment? you're trading off "real-ness" for game play, because real engineering is very hard and isn't much fun. ask the mars climate orbiter team.

[Sophistry]

Who would play with legos if they were made out of steel and required welding equipment? .

Depends if they hurt as much as normal lego when you stood on them. And I do think real engineering is fun as well as hard!

I take your point though, basically I have a choice of two mods made by two really talented people, and neither quite correctly scores on the Authenticityotron

[AetherGoddess]

in case anyone is interested, i wandered around Wikipedia and created some additional AI core names.

AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Data
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Cortana
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Siri
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = SHODAN
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = EDI
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = CABAL
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = VIKI
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Rosie
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Jane
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Wintermute
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Neuromancer
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Golem XIV
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Church
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = ELOPe
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = MARAX
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = EPICAC
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Mark V.
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Bossy
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = GENIE
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Frost
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = HARLIE
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = ARDNEH
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Moxon
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Shalmaneser
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = WESCAC
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Shirka
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Millichrome
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = LEVIN
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Logris
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Deep Winter
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Endless Summer
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Archos
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = EMERAC
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = ARIIA
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Executive
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Dreamer
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = ARDVARC
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = C.O.R.A.
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Eunomia
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = Ada
}
AI_CORE_NAME
{
name = J.H. Eden
}

[Rizz]

Help! I loaded the stock tree and now I can't reset it to use interstellar light because it didn't give me the option to use any other tree!

I need to reset it to reprompt me for the right tree first, then see if I can get the right tree loaded in the first place.

Edit: I've deleted the "notree.cfg" file in my save, now I get this: http://prntscr.com/4qo21k

Edit2: I've even uninstalled and reinstalled the Tree Loader - apparently the one bundled with KSPI lite is 2 months+ older than the one on their release forum. Still no change from the picture above though.

Edit3: Apparently since the mod grabs the tech trees from server-side, and refreshing doesn't do anything, I'm guessing the mod has no way to connect to the server that gives these out. Which basically means we have to inject a tree into our save in order to make use of the interstellar tech tree.

Last Edit: Yep, that did it. Grabbing the tree from the interstellar folder and dropping it in the save folder made it the active version. Hope the tech tree loader gets their servers fixed eventually.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Rizz

[Rizz]

Posting one more reply for another bug I found. http://prntscr.com/4qoawz

Mousing over these parts (and a few others, I think) makes them zoom up and over the GUI to the point where they grow outside the game and out of sight. They don't rotate. I think they somehow confused the rotation for zoom.

[undercoveryankee]

Posting one more reply for another bug I found. http://prntscr.com/4qoawz

Mousing over these parts (and a few others, I think) makes them zoom up and over the GUI to the point where they grow outside the game and out of sight. They don't rotate. I think they somehow confused the rotation for zoom.

The plugin or one of its dependencies isn't loading. The visual display in the VAB is a stock bug triggered by the part modules' failure to load. Post a log and let us know what versions of OpenResourceSystem are present, where you got them, and where they're installed, and we'll probably be able to figure out why.

[Rizz]

The plugin or one of its dependencies isn't loading. The visual display in the VAB is a stock bug triggered by the part modules' failure to load. Post a log and let us know what versions of OpenResourceSystem are present, where you got them, and where they're installed, and we'll probably be able to figure out why.

http://prntscr.com/4qp7t0 This might be why. Gonna try using only 1.2.1.

Edit: Yep! That fixed it. No more part models blowing up (in size, not in kinetic energy... still plenty of that in the game. As it was meant to be )

Edited September 27, 2014 by Rizz

[PaulLeLemon]

Hi, I have a question, What is the difference between KSPI and KSPI Lite ?

[AetherGoddess]

Hi, I have a question, What is the difference between KSPI and KSPI Lite ?

Ah! the perennial question:

i'm not sure what you mean here, so i'm going to theorize wildly and hope i hit.

both KSPi and KSPi_lite are based on the same core, that is, KSPi .11 for .23.5, so they share lots of the same parts and resources. KSPi_lite went down the path of play-ability, and as such there are pretty dramatic changes to the way it operates, and there is a lot less game-play impacting complexity. a good example of this is the simplified reactor design: where KSPi is concerned with getting the reactor design as close to real as possible, KSPi_lite takes the tact that reactors are a game mechanic for converting nuclear fuels into power, and removes the complex fuel cycles and unclear part interactions that often causes unfun activities, like having to revert to editor because your space plane can't start it's reactor without it's reactor running.

i didn't realize what a problem for usability this was until recently, but way back in .22, i had to redo a complex space station servicing mission because i had chosen the wrong fuel mode for my fission-based station power module, and couldn't run the reactor i had just spent and hour ascending, orbiting, intercepting and docking with my station. after having messed with KSPi for more then a year now, i think i have a good understanding of the various nuclear fuels and their cycles, but i was NOT happy at the time.

hopefully this answered your question?

The difference is largely down to personal preference. Interstellar tries to portray, relatively realistically, what certain advanced technologies would be like. As a result, Interstellar parts have an incredibly wide range of capabilities.

Lite is less interested in realistically portraying technologies with real numbers and tries to balance all the parts more into line with what you might more usually expect in KSP.

Both approaches are valid, it just depends on personal preference.

[Edited Liberally]

Interstellar Lite is a derivative of the KSP Interstellar, originally developed by Fractal UK. This version was developed, in part, by me, WaveFunctionP, not FractalUK. Do not blame him for broken stuff. (Assuming you can find him. )

Tweakscale Integration

Most parts will scale from .625m to 5m! The appropriate values are automatically adjusted for the new size. The mod includes a modified version of tweakscale which only includes configs for Interstellar and stock parts. If you have other parts you want to tweak, you will need to download the full version of tweakscale from the mod's author.

Part Pruning

Many parts were removed. The intent is to bring them back when/if they have a strong role. Many models have been removed as part of the tweakscale integration, they may find their way back eventually given a interesting use.

Part Rebalance

Scaling was out of control. Parts now have much more stock like behavior to fit within the confines of the kerbal sized universe. The focus was a on fun and interesting choices.

Bigger reactors have more thrust, smaller have more ISP. Higher tier reactors can be better, because of higher energy density, but have rarer resources. (Resource revamp is not done yet. Costs are placeholder.)

Radiators were buffed, especially radial radiators.

Huge and Inline versions were removed due to weak art.

Radiators now glow according to waste heat accumulation. (Thank Mellon85.)

Feature Pruning

Many upgrade mechanics were removed to reduce scaling and confusion. Most extra modes were removed from parts to reduce confusion as well.

This is affects reactors, radiators and generators as thier upgrades were simple stat inflation.

Only interesting upgrades/modes were kept like thermal turbojet's lfo mode or plasma's quantum vacuum mode.

Resource Compatibility

Many resources have changed to improve compatibility. The mod supports CommunityResourcePack. Expect much more tight integration with resource/life support/logistic mods in the future. This was the first step. The VAB has tweakable fuel resources with preliminary costs. (Not all that balanced.)

Polish!, Polish!, Polish!

A great deal of focus was spent on player messaging. Many tooltips, descriptions and buttons are improved over stock KSPI. Many of the weaker models were removed or replaced with better art. Many bug fixes.

My answer over anyone who had any real contribution. who's the queen now?

Edited September 28, 2014 by AetherGoddess
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