Why in Kraken's name do thermometers etc have low transmit value?

[Whirligig Girl]

There's no reason for it. Full transmit value might should be REQUIRED for these devices, as the recorded temperature, pressure, gravity, accelleration, will change by the time you land back home. There's no "sample" like there is in a Goo-pod. Fixing this would really give some use to probes, as they'd be good instruments of science.

[Kasuha]

Things often become more acceptable if you make up an excuse you're willing to believe for them.

What works for me is that they're analog devices drawing the measurement on a drum, and there is camera scanning the picture and losing some precision during digitalization.

[geb]

I prefer to believe that every single thermometer that is flown by kerbals is uncalibrated. They always forget, and have to bring the meter back again to find out what the data means.

"The temperature data from the Moho probe is in. Temperature is 56 units."

"Which units?"

"... I have no idea."

*sigh*

I would be happier with more competent science teams building my instruments, and getting 100% transmit return for a simple number.

[Frozen_Heart]

"The temperature data from the Moho probe is in. Temperature is 56 units."

"Which units?"

"... I have no idea."

*sigh*

Sadly this happened in real life...

[Red Iron Crown]

All science equipment has a transmit penalty to encourage manned return missions. Most of them don't make sense as the data could be sent as easily as being recorded and returned, but there you go. Best to invent some headcannon for it as Kasuha suggests.

[Rusty6899]

All science equipment has a transmit penalty to encourage manned return missions. Most of them don't make sense as the data could be sent as easily as being recorded and returned, but there you go. Best to invent some headcannon for it as Kasuha suggests.

I think that science equipment that required a simple digital readout i.e.thermometers, barometers etc. should have 100% transmit value (or at least a very high percentage). The experiments that require kerbals should be much more valuable and have a significant transmit penalty. After all, it would be much harder to transmit a 100 page experimental report than a single number, however a human (or in this case kerbal) is capable of performing much more sophisticated experiments than a machine. The way I see it, surface samples should offer the most valuable, with EVA reports being less valuable and then the simple equipment offering fairly meager research value. I would like to see the Science Jr. and Goo Container offering more science if a kerbal is present to observe the results and/or if the data is returned.

It would be good to have long term experiments as well, for example recording the temperature throughout an entire day or year, or measuring the gravity data across the course of a highly eccentric orbit. The problem is that these suggestions would require a large amount of re-balancing and so are unlikely to be implemented at any point. I do, however, think that science could do with an overhaul to make it more realistic and to make more difficult experiments produce a better yield of science.

[tater]

If they want to encourage manned flight data, add some new sensors. Add a new right click to the habitable modules for "physiology report log," for example. This could allow things like hitchhikers to generate some useful "on orbit" science. Have it only do a small amount, but it can be repeated a lot (or turn the log on, and the longer it runs, the more science you get up to some value).

Regardless, I think it's important to remember that the tech tree moves way too fast, anyway, so if you were to play in a more "realistic" way (assume the US and CCCP programs as examples) and send unmanned craft first, the "science" build up is at a much slower (realistic) speed. It might be best to think of the transmitted data as the baseline, and the manned stuff as being in fact too good. I'd think somewhere in between would be better. Instead of making all the branches cost more and more per level, make them cost less, but require prerequisites, and scale back most all the returned science values. Some still might cost 160, 300, etc, but most would not, though they might require a couple prerequisites.

I'm new, and played a few tutorial missions to get the hang of controls, then did a science career, and I'm now doing a regular career. I landed on the Mun very quickly in the science career (my first night playing) after only a handful of flights or two (many collecting Kermin science to get some parts). I started the regular career last week at some point, and I'm already through most of the 160 science tree (a couple Mun landings, and a Minmus landing blew me through all the 90s in the space of a couple beers one night. It really does go too fast, the tree needs to have some tech much easier to get fast, and some longer delays I think.

[Alshain]

While were on the subject they need to remove the multiples of the same science. That mechanic is just silly and I don't know of anyone that goes back to the same place just for the purpose of getting the same experiment which returns far less science the second, third and fourth time around. If they want to encourage return trips they need to add more science equipment later in the tech tree and spread more widely across the tech tree instead of in a single line, not return with the same piece of equipment to get less than the first trip. At some point it's really just grinding and becomes uninteresting.

[Kasuha]

I don't know of anyone that goes back to the same place just for the purpose of getting the same experiment which returns far less science the second, third and fourth time around.

I generally make sure I get at least two measurements for each such experiment. 10% is enough reason to fly there again, 1% is not. So there are such players.

[Whirligig Girl]

I think you should only have a reason for manned missions for Goo, Materials, and Reputation. The sensor type instruments could very easily be transmitted at full value.

[treejoe4]

To make career more difficult.

[WololoW]

While were on the subject they need to remove the multiples of the same science. That mechanic is just silly and I don't know of anyone that goes back to the same place just for the purpose of getting the same experiment which returns far less science the second, third and fourth time around. If they want to encourage return trips they need to add more science equipment later in the tech tree and spread more widely across the tech tree instead of in a single line, not return with the same piece of equipment to get less than the first trip. At some point it's really just grinding and becomes uninteresting.

The part I bolded is what I feel I need to touch on, the rest I can pretty much agree with.

In the scientific method, an experiment must be reproducible. This means that if I come up with an experiment in Colorado, someone in Florida or Shanghai (or especially Colorado) must be able to reproduce that experiment within the limits I defined and their results must be within the expected (or exact in some cases) value I said they would be. Otherwise my experiment is considered not to have as much validity/credibility(if it receives any at all).

Because of that fact, I find it makes complete sense to have to test the exact same experiment in the same(or similar) location multiple times. This also helps one realize that the contract that can be completed by transmitting science that has no in-game science points value is still a very valid contract and is actually very scientifically sound.

Just my 2cents on the matter.

Edited August 26, 2014 by WololoW
Formatting

[Superfluous J]

The way I see it, the "thermometer" and "barometer" experiments are simplified representations of some other experiment with a longer name that would be no fun to just slap on the side of your ship. This experiment has lots of parts and doodads, some of which are transmittable and some of which need to be returned to be useful.

Done and done.

[tater]

I think the underlying point is that there should be some sensors that are meant for things like probes.

[wizzlebippi]

NASA wouldn't be sending probes everywhere if they couldn't stream data back. Big aircraft manufacturers routinely stream thousands of parameters in real time to a remote telemetry station, and that data is just as good as if the engineers were on the aircraft. So why can't transmitted data from a thermometer be just as useful as getting the thermometer back.

[r4pt0r]

The way I see it, the "thermometer" and "barometer" experiments are simplified representations of some other experiment with a longer name that would be no fun to just slap on the side of your ship. This experiment has lots of parts and doodads, some of which are transmittable and some of which need to be returned to be useful.

Done and done.

while i completely agree with most of that, I must add that the thermometer looks like an old style mercury thermometer (image for those who have never actually looked at it lol)

putting one of those in a freezer, then taking it out and driving to another city to read it would skew the data a little haha.

again, I agree with you, but its hard when the part looks like that

[tntristan12]

I agree with the OP. The thing that's always bugged me about the science system is the disconnect between gameplay and what you'd expect. It simply requires too much suspension of disbelief to think that an experiment you conduct in high orbit will be preserved after re-entry and recovery. Each experiment needs a hierarchy of how much science can be gained from it. For example:

- Observing mystery goo in high orbit yields the most science if analyzed in a lab module in orbit. Moderate science if the results are transmitted. However, if you leave orbit and/or apply an acceleration impulse to the ship, you've destroyed the experiment and it automatically resets, so you cannot return the experiment to kerbin for science.

- A soil sample gathered from another world yields the most science if returned to kerbin for analysis. Analyzing in a lab module would yield moderate science (like 75%). Transmitting observations about the soil yields some science but not very much.

- A crew report is worth the most if you transmit it, because the report is still fresh in everyone's mind, but recovering in a lab or at the space center may not necessarily return more science, because why should a report be recovered physically when it is just the subjective views of those on the mission?

- EDIT: The thermometer experiment would be worth the most on transmission, but nothing to a lab because you can't get anything out of it. The information has been destroyed.

Every experiment should be different, and have its own level of difficulty in obtaining science from it. Perhaps there's a limited window in which you can analyze it (I.e. the experiment can only be done when there is no direct sunlight - taking a dark side radiation measurement for example), and if you transmit to recover science before going to a lab and the lab would produce more science then taking it to a lab would recover the difference, since it would likely turn up things that basic observation couldn't.

If stuff like this was implemented, science in my opinion would become much less of a grind, and more like a unique problem to solve for every varied case.

Edited August 28, 2014 by tntristan12

[Capt Snuggler]

"The temperature data from the Moho probe is in. Temperature is 56 units."

"Which units?"

"... I have no idea."

*sigh*

though i love this way of thinking about it, i would prefer if basic sensors could transmit basic numerical values.

OR change the way the experiment/sensor/transmission system works to account for a reduction in fidelity.

eg: the thermometer transmits a long stream of analogue data in real time but there are gaps in the transmission due to noise lowering the science value.

bigger, better, late-game transmitters could use multichannel digital signals which are far less effected by noise.