JeffreyCor Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I favor the idea of an abort during roll out requiring a roll in time. This can however create an exploit in if the ship is more than half way out, letting the roll out finish then recovering the ship from the pad via the usual recovery function. I got the hint, loaded up Flight Manager for Reusable Stages in another tab Might be a bit before I can check compatibility out well though especially with midterms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyomoto Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Jeffery, though I think that it is valid to take this into consideration, it should be noted that this is really marginal as exploit. You would have already waited the full time for the roll-out. This more highlights the recovery system in general, and whether or not it would be possible to make recovery take time rather than being instant. If possible it would make sense within KCT for a recovery half-way around the world to take longer than pushing it off the pad or runway, which should be relatively quick. A few hours I believe was the last described measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Well the simple solution is that rolling out a vessel in KCT won't actually place it on the pad until you press launch (which will only appear after the vessel has been rolled out). It will likely be that way initially since the way I'm putting vessels on the pad now is identical to pressing the launch button in the editor in a stock game (start a new flight driver with a new launch from a file). I can take a look at which InputLocks are available since I'm pretty sure I can make it so you can't recover a vessel. Put that lock on until you actually launch it and provide a way to roll the vessel back into storage.Wait a sec. Recovering the vessel won't put it into storage how things are configured now, you'd have to rebuild it. I don't think there's actually a problem here. This does imply that I should finally get the stuff set up so you can recover into storage directly. If you do that from the launchpad you have to pay the rollout time in reverse (but after 10-25% or so you can start rolling out a new vessel) and from anywhere else on Kerbin I can likely make it take time as well (based on distance and mass, maybe some other factors like the VAB rates. Should be LONGER than rollout for a comparable vessel [since those are on equipment designed for moving them], implying rollout times will be correlated to recovery times).JeffreyCor, thank you for taking a look at that. I wasn't actually hinting that you should do it, but appreciate that you are Take your time, it'll still get done before I would have had a chance to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisq Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Hm, the "reset upgrade points" respec feature can get a bit cheaty, given that it has no permanent cost, just a minimum number of points required.For example, I had a long list of techs to unlock  I just finished my first orbit of Kerbin, got a ton of EVA reports from over various biomes, had a bunch of science to spend. I added four new techs to the research list, and I was looking at ETAs of up to 90 days for many of them.But of course, having just added four new techs, I also had four new upgrade points (22 total). I reset my points and dumped 20 points into Development, saving two for the respec back. I figured, okay, we'll have a research-a-thon  I'll spend a few days doing nothing except finishing up this research, then respec back and continue normal operations. That seems fair.Well, I didn't quite realise how exponential Development was, because we literally finished every pending tech within about 2 seconds. And then I had all those points I could throw back into VAB speed and whatnot.I don't know whether this is something worth addressing or not, nor do I really know how one might address it. I'm still a big fan of respec in every game  I don't like feeling locked in, or like I have to look at a guide on my very first playthrough to avoid ruining it by wasting points I can never get back  but the fact that I can turn 90 days into <2 seconds and then back into 90 days in an instant at zero cost seems a bit excessive.(Personally, I reloaded from before the research and I'm taking it slower this time. I may even just try to ignore the respec feature unless I really need it, e.g. shifting all resources from VAB to SPH at some point, or just putting a cap on Development speed. It's not that I can't ignore a cheaty tactic, just that I feel its availability kinda cheapens the experience.)Edit: Oof, also, bug report (dunno if fixable): If you have a parts testing contract and you start researching the tech for that part, you lose access to that part until research is complete. So I can't even go work on parts contracts while I wait for the research. In light of that, maybe "instant research via respec" isn't such a terrible thing. Edited October 30, 2014 by Wisq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yeah, I can see how that might be a bit exploitable. I don't think there's many people who use it like that, so it's not a big concern at the moment (though now that they know the secret they might start doing that!). When I redo upgrades I will attempt to address that (there's a chance that how I end up redoing them will make that sort of thing impossible on its own).The inability to access parts after starting their tech is a known bug that I haven't spent any time trying to find a workaround for yet. If you have a craft file that has the part on it, you can use it that way (use subassemblies and what-not to transfer it between craft). KCT currently doesn't restrict you to tech you actually have unlocked due to that bug (meaning, yes, it is possible to build your 1000 ton extra-super Jool lander with tier 0 tech if you transfer the craft file).You'll generally have enough time left on the contract that it isn't a huge concern, or will have (hopefully) already designed a ship using the part for the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gh7531 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Hey magico first I want to thank you for all your afford you're putting into this mod. I've probably a feature for your mod. Even if I'm not sure if your mod is the best one to implement probably a mod for itself would be better I suggest it to you first.I think a aspect of time would be pretty nice for the strategies and because your mod handle things with time already you are probably the best person to say/do something about it.My thoughts are something like: -- If you commit to one one strategie you set a time how long you want so commit to it. If you want to stop the strategie you have to pay some amount of funds an you will lose reputation. -- Even further there cound be strategies that change over time like if you commit to a strategie for one year your rewards for each recovered vessel would grow over time. (On day one you will get 1% percent bonus and at day 365 you will get 100% bonus).-- Or your commitmend to a strategie will rise over time. -- Or a strategie that lower you science rewards in the first few month about 90% and after a half year or so your will get dubble of the reward. (Probably a bad example but I hope you get what I mean. )-- You will lose one science point per day and after a few month you will get a random technode for free. There would be tons of possible things. -- Probably not timedependend but why not create a strategie that let you build you rockets faster or (timedependend) let you unlock tech / build rockets faster if you commited to a certain strategie for at least a year.I don't know if this is even possible but I can imagine a lot of people would like to see such system included in your mod or as something for it's own. I would try doing it for my self bud sadly my knowlege of programing is not as good as it woud need to be. anyway everyone have a nice day. (and also sorry for my english it isn't my native language) Edited October 31, 2014 by gh7531 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkuth Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Strategies is pretty easy, just have to have access to what kct uses for its waiting time while construction.At any rate would have to be well controlled, like we have seen for the science strategies, some of them can get way out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gh7531 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Strategies is pretty easy, just have to have access to what kct uses for its waiting time while construction.At any rate would have to be well controlled, like we have seen for the science strategies, some of them can get way out of hand.I'm glad to hear that it is even possible. And yes for sure there have to be a good balance but if you get time also as balancing factor it could be possibe (or at least I think so?).Another thing could be an mixture of contract and strategie like you get certain contacts only if you commit to a special strategie but I think this is something for FinePrint...One last thing (for now ) what about science experiements that take a certain amount of time? Like observe the material bay would take an certain amount of time. Than maybe add if the player stop the experiment after 3/4 of the time the divice wont be usable any more. This sould be able to deactivate for the players who don't want this. But since nearly everything in this mod could be deactivated/changed this shouldn't be the major problem.Or another aproach if you don't want the divice to be usless maybe just say the observe mystery goo takes 30min of gametime and if the player stops the experiment or the biome changes after 15min he would only get the half of the science points. (Time values are totaly made up they need a proper balance too. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfang35 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 For some reason the KTC tab doesnt appear in the toolbar. Anyone else having this problem and if so how to fix it. KSP .25 32-bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira_R Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Hey so this is kind of a weird question, I'm still on .24.2 and using the latest release for .24 v1.0.2I was previously using DebRefund for recovery of dropped stages, I have decided to change over to StageRecovery v1.5.0My question is since I am switching over in the middle of a save will KCT know that DebRefund is no longer there and start accepting part recovery info from StageRecovery automatically or do I need to change something in the persistence file telling it to look for SR instead of DebRefund?BTW I love this mod, just had my first "accident", Jeb was bouncing peanuts off of Bobs head while he was trying to land them on the Mun, as a result Bob got distracted and was watching the height above sea level readout instead of the radar height above terrain readout, managed to do an emergency burn and miss a ridge but still plowed the lander into the surface at ~60m/s destroying the engine, and with only four days of LS on board (lucky there was only two of them in the capsule or would have been even less) I needed to get a rescue mission up there ASAP.Since this is the first time this sort of thing had happened since I started using KCT I didn't really think about how tiny of a window this was leaving me with, I went to the VAB and started building a lander that could cary the two of them plus a pilot back to kerbin, and then I noticed that it would take like 9 days to build just the lander not even counting the launch vehicle. I spent a little while fiddling with different designs and finally realized that there is no way I can build a lander that can get there in time and has enough crew capacity to save these guys because my kerbals don't have enough experience using the parts and I don't have any in stock. So looking at the part inventory I was like ok I have all the parts I need for one of my really old lander designs, just a Mk1 capsule some fuel an engine and a bunch of science equipment. Now how can I use this since it can only carry one Kerbal, and my RT comms network isn't robust enough for me to feel comfortable to try landing it with a probe? So I striped off all the science gear and strapped a couple of cans of LS supplies to the sides and two KAS pipe endpoints, added a good booster and transfer stage and I was sitting at just over two days and five hours of build time, leaving me just over a day to get it in orbit and sent to the Mun.I ended up touching down almost on top of them with the engine running on fumes. I kept the fuel as low as possible in order to facilitate faster build times, with just barely enough dV to get there and land. But I forgot they were crashed right up next to the north pole so I didn't adjust my transfer trajectory to put them on a polar orbit when they got there, and I had barley left enough of a margin with fuel so that if i had trouble with the landing I would be able to fly around a bit. Luckily when I entered Mun SOI it was lined up perfectly that I was able to burn to execute my inclination change and move my impact point right on top of them without having to actually enter a capture orbit or anything.So now Jeb, Bob and Bill are sitting there with a KAS pipe sending life support supplies over to Jeb and Bobs ship and they have enough to last them 150 days or so, plenty of time to build a suitable lander to bring the three of them back home. It was great having to be forced to think outside of the box in order to save my kerbals, thanks to this aand TacLS there is no such thing as a "standard" rescue mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 My question is since I am switching over in the middle of a save will KCT know that DebRefund is no longer there and start accepting part recovery info from StageRecovery automatically or do I need to change something in the persistence file telling it to look for SR instead of DebRefund?Kinda short on time at the moment (about to do a live stream over at http://twitch.tv/themagico13 Shameless plug ) so I haven't read your story yet, but I can answer this question. You don't need to change anything, it will just start working automatically @goldfang35 I have not observed that before. It will use Blizzy's toolbar if you have that installed, so make sure to check in there first. Otherwise, if you send me a log file I can take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodion Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 haven't tried this mod yet (definitely planning to add it to my 0.90 game), but i just want to congratulate the developer for implementing a whole new KSP gameplay paradigm - "Unrapid Planned Assembly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 haven't tried this mod yet (definitely planning to add it to my 0.90 game), but i just want to congratulate the developer for implementing a whole new KSP gameplay paradigm - "Unrapid Planned Assembly".If you don't mind, I would like to take that and use it as the official slogan (since "Vessels take time to build." is lame and I couldn't think of anything better at the time). "Unrapid Planned Assembly" is perfect!@gh7531: Those are very interesting ideas! I may look into using/creating strategies as a replacement or in addition to the upgrade system when I get around to redoing that. Taking time to do science is also an interesting concept. I like the idea but am not sure if it fits in KCT's scope. That could be a good mod on its own or be a good start to a total science overhaul (something I'm not quite prepared to undertake at the moment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyomoto Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 It's a bit beyond scope, but just for the sake of discussion, the issue with strategies and stuff of that nature is that there is a lot of potential but it's under utilized. Let's say you did have a strategy that if you commit to it you gain a bonus to your build times ... then what? How is that different than just spending the money on a VAB upgrade? Something more interesting might be committing to a particular corporation whose parts are then available both cheaper and faster, but you cannot use another corporation's parts and if you break the deal, their parts are more expensive and take longer to build. The problem with a flat bonus is why not use the bonus? What reason would you have for not making use of a bonus?As far as science goes, I think your time to research is already pretty good. Though bringing up strategies again, it might be beneficial to instead of having a strategy that increases your science yield, instead lessens the time it takes to research new parts. Of course, this once again requires that these things take a meaningful enough amount of time and have a meaningful reduction thereof. If it took months to build a single rocket, signing a contract with certain parts manufacturers might make more sense since they would speed up the construction times greatly. Not to mention the emergent gameplay that comes from restrictions on using certain parts or you break your contract terms and suffer penalties. If you put in a progress bar until you earn your next upgrade, perhaps there could be a strategy to earn bonus points to that? Or maybe one that yields a return on science after successfully completing node research? Maybe one that reduces the cost of research but increases the cost of the parts, etc...There are so many possibilities that are more interesting than just a flat increase to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfang35 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) https://www.dropbox.com/s/5i97otozeqb78rf/Log.txt?dl=0toolbar for KCT not appearingKSP log Edited November 1, 2014 by goldfang35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodion Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 If you don't mind, I would like to take that and use it as the official slogan (since "Vessels take time to build." is lame and I couldn't think of anything better at the time). "Unrapid Planned Assembly" is perfect!i think that'd be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gh7531 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 If you don't mind, I would like to take that and use it as the official slogan (since "Vessels take time to build." is lame and I couldn't think of anything better at the time). "Unrapid Planned Assembly" is perfect!@gh7531: Those are very interesting ideas! I may look into using/creating strategies as a replacement or in addition to the upgrade system when I get around to redoing that. Taking time to do science is also an interesting concept. I like the idea but am not sure if it fits in KCT's scope. That could be a good mod on its own or be a good start to a total science overhaul (something I'm not quite prepared to undertake at the moment).Nice to hear that you take it in cosideration for the future. I think I will post a suggestion for a science overhaul mod in add-on affairs so it could be a seperate mod because as you said its proably out of scope for KCT. I will edit a Link to it here if I created the post at the moment i don't have time to do so.It's a bit beyond scope, but just for the sake of discussion, the issue with strategies and stuff of that nature is that there is a lot of potential but it's under utilized. Let's say you did have a strategy that if you commit to it you gain a bonus to your build times ... then what? How is that different than just spending the money on a VAB upgrade? Something more interesting might be committing to a particular corporation whose parts are then available both cheaper and faster, but you cannot use another corporation's parts and if you break the deal, their parts are more expensive and take longer to build. The problem with a flat bonus is why not use the bonus? What reason would you have for not making use of a bonus?As far as science goes, I think your time to research is already pretty good. Though bringing up strategies again, it might be beneficial to instead of having a strategy that increases your science yield, instead lessens the time it takes to research new parts. Of course, this once again requires that these things take a meaningful enough amount of time and have a meaningful reduction thereof. If it took months to build a single rocket, signing a contract with certain parts manufacturers might make more sense since they would speed up the construction times greatly. Not to mention the emergent gameplay that comes from restrictions on using certain parts or you break your contract terms and suffer penalties. If you put in a progress bar until you earn your next upgrade, perhaps there could be a strategy to earn bonus points to that? Or maybe one that yields a return on science after successfully completing node research? Maybe one that reduces the cost of research but increases the cost of the parts, etc...There are so many possibilities that are more interesting than just a flat increase to something.Your Ideas are even better than mine. Espacely the part with the different companys is pretty awesome. And yes you are right there are tons of possible ways to enhance this part of the game. I just wrote some things that flew around in my head after discovering this mod a few days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisq Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I can see how that might be a bit exploitable. I don't think there's many people who use it like that, so it's not a big concern at the moment (though now that they know the secret they might start doing that!). When I redo upgrades I will attempt to address that (there's a chance that how I end up redoing them will make that sort of thing impossible on its own).FYI, just in case this helps:After mulling over whether to exploit the insta-tech-respec thing, and what sort of rules to impose on myself to prevent doing it, I finally came up with this: I can put however much I want into development (including respeccing into it), but any points I put into it are permanent; if I respec, I have to immediately buff it back up to the same level it was before. That means that, sure, I could put every point into it and get instant techs … at the cost of having a VAB speed so low I can't launch a damn thing.(I might rescind that in the case of a true emergency, but that's the general case. Also, I'll allow a final respec out of it when I run out of techs to research.)A longer-term solution might just be to have players specify what configuration of upgrades they want, and slowly morph the current state to achieve that (i.e. allocation/reallocation takes time); the bigger the difference, the longer it takes. So you could respec into tech to develop everything fast, but a) it would take long enough to not be instant and put a serious dent in your other activities, and the more you put into development, the longer it takes to reach peak speed and the longer it takes to get VAB/SPH building speed back when you switch out of development again. Edited November 1, 2014 by Wisq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinker Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Say, Is their any way to see which part you have build that can be build faster now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Say, Is their any way to see which part you have build that can be build faster now?In-game, not at the moment. You can see it by looking through the persistence file (just search for PartTracker). I'm trying to think of good ways of displaying that and the part inventory, since the current method isn't all that great. The best way would be what Kerbal 4X does (displaying the numbers on the parts in the part catalog) but I don't want to just copy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 toolbar for KCT not appearingKSP logUnfortunately that's the KSP.log and not the output_log.txt (and the KCT debug messages were turned off). Still, looking through it I wasn't seeing any errors being displayed that might be related. The KCT button should always be available in the SpaceCenter as long as you enable it in the toolbar settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfang35 Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Thank you for your help I managed to get the icon on the toolbar mod but am still unable to put it on the ksp toolbar which is inconvenient but at least works unlike last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Thank you for your help I managed to get the icon on the toolbar mod but am still unable to put it on the ksp toolbar which is inconvenient but at least works unlike last time.KCT prioritizes being on the toolbar mod's toolbar rather than the stock one when given the ability. I should probably make that configurable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinker Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I have a request:There should be a difference in construction time between brand new part (that have never been used) and part that are second hand. Second hand items might need small repairs while brand new part should be ready for assemblage. I think think could be implemented by adding a flag to all part which is set on launch. This should give players more incentive to build parts in paralel and assemble when all parts are collected. To facilitate this further, when ordering construction, you should be able to select on which assembly line construction should be started. This allows your new parts to be constructed on the secondary line wile main construction can be reserved for your primary project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magico13 Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 @FreeThinker Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but doesn't the inventory and part tracker systems cover that? If you recover a part then the next time you use it it takes much less time, and the more often you use a part (through multiple builds) the quicker that part takes to build (representing increased familiarity with the part).In fact, due to the fact that time increases with the square root of cost, if you only have one line it is always faster to build more at once. If you have two lines you can split the construction in half, scrap them, and then build the whole thing and you MIGHT see a reduction in time (depends on if you were using inventory parts in the first place).You can already select which line you want things to be on by reordering the constructions in the build list. By default it's first come-first served, but then you can rearrange as needed.Do you want reused parts to take longer? I actually think there's a way to do that in the time settings, but it won't actually have much effect since you can choose to use new parts each build (after the ScrapYard is implemented then you'd have to pay more each time for new parts and that becomes a feasible gameplay mechanic [pay more for faster builds, or less for slower ones])Like I said, maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you meant, in which case feel free to correct me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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