[1.4.1] Kerbal Construction Time 1.4.0.69 (2018-03-24) - Unrapid Planned Assembly

[kimiko]

Quick question/suggestion. Is it possible for having Kerbal Construction Time modify Dang It or Test Flight failure ratio depending on for example how many times you reuse parts, or maybe if you "rush" construction etc.?

[magico13]

One of the things I've been looking into is Test Flight related additions, so I'll see if I can do anything like that easily. Currently I've made it so you can disable part failures during simulations (in the Dev versions only at the moment)

[autumnalequinox]

Sorry for the shameless promotion but this is kind of directed towards the KCT player-base: Okay here is my initial Dev post for my KCT companion mod idea: Kerbin Historical Society/Random Events

More to come later! Thanks for your offers of help, magico! I'm going to sift through some code and spend some time gearing up for this and see what's possible to do without breaking the game

[Minwaabi]

Is there any way of getting upgrade points besides just unlocking tech tree nodes?

[magico13]

Is there any way of getting upgrade points besides just unlocking tech tree nodes?

You can buy them with funds or with science, but otherwise those are the only ways. In sandbox you're given a flat 45 points, but can change that number at any point (so you can define your own progression points from a roleplay perspective). Through tweaking of the KCT_Formulas.cfg you can increase or decrease the effectiveness of upgrade points (not for the faint of heart), even going so far as to remove them completely.

[Carl Sagan The S Stallion]

I've had a very strange glitch with this mod.

Whenever I left-click to upgrade the R&D facility, yellow text pops up and says "build facility requested", but doesn't actually put the building on the queue. Then, the funds in the bank starts increasing really, really fast, and doesn't stop. It's a game-breaking glitch. Other than that, the mod is running great.

[magico13]

I've had a very strange glitch with this mod.

Whenever I left-click to upgrade the R&D facility, yellow text pops up and says "build facility requested", but doesn't actually put the building on the queue. Then, the funds in the bank starts increasing really, really fast, and doesn't stop. It's a game-breaking glitch. Other than that, the mod is running great.

I assume you meant right-click Do you have Instant KSC facility upgrades enabled in the settings? I'm going to assume not (meaning upgrades should take time). It could be a conflict with another mod, preventing the "downgrade" from happening and then confusing KCT. Could you open up the KCT settings and enable debug messages, then try to upgrade a building and send me the log file? Depending on what's going on, you might just have to enable instant KSC upgrades. Also, make sure you're on the latest official release (you probably are) which is 1.1.7. I've seen similar issues while testing development versions, but not in the release version.

[Carl Sagan The S Stallion]

I assume you meant right-click Do you have Instant KSC facility upgrades enabled in the settings? I'm going to assume not (meaning upgrades should take time). It could be a conflict with another mod, preventing the "downgrade" from happening and then confusing KCT. Could you open up the KCT settings and enable debug messages, then try to upgrade a building and send me the log file? Depending on what's going on, you might just have to enable instant KSC upgrades. Also, make sure you're on the latest official release (you probably are) which is 1.1.7. I've seen similar issues while testing development versions, but not in the release version.

Thank you very much, I'll get right on that. I don't think I use any mods that could conflict, besides MAYBE community tech tree (but I don't think it would have an impact). As far as I remember, this happened only with the R&D facility, so I'll see if I can record it and send you the log.

[Xyd]

I noticed that recovering an unlaunched rocket at the launchpad essentially causes it to disappear, as I assumed it might just end back up in storage. Is there any way round this, cause it often means having to rebuild the rocket.

[Svm420]

I noticed that recovering an unlaunched rocket at the launchpad essentially causes it to disappear, as I assumed it might just end back up in storage. Is there any way round this, cause it often means having to rebuild the rocket.

CLick the KCT icon and select VAB or SPH and recover to storage. However recovering the normal way still puts part in your inventory reducing time to build with those parts later, so it's not a complete wash

[seronis]

Can there be an option so that the Science you generate for building craft doesnt get lower just because you learn to build faster? Id like stable science gains from my work

[magico13]

I noticed that recovering an unlaunched rocket at the launchpad essentially causes it to disappear, as I assumed it might just end back up in storage. Is there any way round this, cause it often means having to rebuild the rocket.

Other than the KCT recovery method mentioned earlier, if you can revert to the VAB then doing so will go back to a time where the rocket is still waiting to be launched and you can roll it back into storage

- - - Updated - - -

Can there be an option so that the Science you generate for building craft doesnt get lower just because you learn to build faster? Id like stable science gains from my work

Science gains are based on the BP of the vessel, which is independent of build rate but is dependent on the number of times you've used those parts and on the inventory. If you want a constant rate, just constantly have vessels being built. Increasing the build rate will actually increase the total amount of science you can generate in a day (since you can complete more vessels in the same time).

You can tweak the science formula to try to balance it more how you want, but I think it's still a function of the BP of the vessel no matter what, and the way it's set up I'm not sure I can decouple them from each other.

[seronis]

Dont you have a BASE bp level you compute prior to factoring in the bonus from having used parts before? That base value is what should be used. yes this will slowly allow you to generate more science per day. THAT IS THE POINT. The cost of parts goes up as you delve further into the tech tree. Your rate of learning should be going up too even if its not as fast. Id like to be able to play games where im not earning free science at all from contracts. It makes no sense to me that contracts pay anything other than money and prestige. Having it based on experiments performed and stuff built is what id like but even putting EVERY upgrade point in science gains wouldnt scale sensibly in a way that would let you make it through the tech tree at an enjoyable pace.

[Thorbane]

Is it possible to set a limit on how expensive the upgrade point can be? And if I add KCT to an existing save will I receive a point for each tech already unlocked?

[Drake1500]

Is it possible to set a limit on how expensive the upgrade point can be? And if I add KCT to an existing save will I receive a point for each tech already unlocked?

Can't say for sure about adding to an existing save, but there is a file in the KCT folder - KCT_formulas.cfg - where you can change the formula for the cost.

For example, to change the cost in funds, take a look at the UpgradeFundsFormula: min(2^([N]+4) * 1000, 1024000)

1024000 is the maximum. Change that, and you change how expensive it gets. If you want a single, unchanging cost, just replace the whole thing with a single number.

[MarcAFK]

I seem to have been getting upgrade points I haven't purchased, is this a feature I somehow missed in the documentation? Coincidentally I have 5 points I didn't purchase, and have unlocked 5 science nodes, perhaps it is related to the way I have modified the config file, but I can't seem to find anything in there.

KCT_FormulaSettings

{

NodeFormula = 2+[R]*(([N]*0.2)+1) / 86400

UpgradeFundsFormula = min(([N]+1) * 16000, 512000)

UpgradeScienceFormula = min(([N]+1) * 8.0, 256)

ResearchFormula = 2+[R]*([N]*0.5)/864000

EffectivePartFormula = min([C]/( + (*(+1))), [C])

ProceduralPartFormula = (([C]-[A]) + ([A]*10/max(,1))) / max(*(+1),1)

BPFormula = ([E]^(1/2))*2000*[O]

KSCUpgradeFormula = ([C]^(1/2))*1000*[O]

ReconditioningFormula = min([M]*[E], [X])

BuildRateFormula = ((+1)*0.02*([L]+[R]+1)*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(2*[L]-+1)

}

It was months ago that I made those modifications so they're rather cryptic to me at the moment, I'm running with a x5 build point multiplier and wanted development slowed down significantly, then factoring in research and construction increases for upgraded facilities, though only a 50% bonus per level. The first R&D center upgrade takes just over a year XD.

Edit: So completing nodes and upgrading buildings gives upgrade points? That's great. I've also messed with my formulas a bit more since this post.

Edit: I've found a minor UI bug, multiple open KCT windows seem to have their scroll bar linked.

I had my VAB tab open with a bunch of stuff queued and a long scroll bar to reach the bottom where I had a rocket waiting for rollout, But I still had the upgrade window open, which had a short scroll bar to reach the bottom VAB speed upgrades.

When I clicked the VAB construction scrollbar and dragged it down it stopped partway, I could see the scrollbar of the upgrade window being highlighted and moving around in unison with the VAB toolbar I was moving.

Very minor bug really as I could just close the upgrade window which freed up the other scrollbar.

Edited June 8, 2015 by MarcAFK

[Schmonzo]

you always get upgrade points for achieving stuff. Otherwise you would take ages to build/research stuff in the later game. Also it's time to thank themagico13 again for this mod, it's a must have for a couple of installs now. If only his lps came back

edit: noooooooo, can't give him rep right now. Quick, someone else do it for me!

Edited June 8, 2015 by Schmonzo

[magico13]

Dont you have a BASE bp level you compute prior to factoring in the bonus from having used parts before? That base value is what should be used. yes this will slowly allow you to generate more science per day. THAT IS THE POINT. The cost of parts goes up as you delve further into the tech tree. Your rate of learning should be going up too even if its not as fast. Id like to be able to play games where im not earning free science at all from contracts. It makes no sense to me that contracts pay anything other than money and prestige. Having it based on experiments performed and stuff built is what id like but even putting EVERY upgrade point in science gains wouldnt scale sensibly in a way that would let you make it through the tech tree at an enjoyable pace.

There is no base BP calculation, since every part on the ship has a BP based on usage, which is then added together and modified further to come up with the total. The closest thing to a base BP calculation would be the total vessel cost.

You already get more science per day when you start building things faster, but you still only get science based on the "kerbal-hours" it takes to build something (the BP). Imagine you have a vessel that takes X days of kerbal-hours to build and you have a build rate of Y kerbal-hours per day. Since the science you get is based on X, doubling Y means you can complete twice as much in the same time, doubling the amount of science you get. Similarly, doubling the amount of points you put into Research will double that as well.

I like science being based on the final BP values. It makes sense that you'd get less science from working with parts you're already familiar with, but increasing your build rate will still allow you to get more science in the same amount of time. And more expensive (and thus complicated) parts will net you more science with the increased kerbal-hours needed to build them. Also, that feature isn't designed to supplant normal science gathering methods (there's something like 16 times more science in the Kerbal system than the tech tree is worth, and you can complete it without leaving the Kerbin system). If you want to use it for more than a small amount of bonus science, then just edit the formula so it grows how you like (currently it's linear with the number of upgrades. You are more than welcome to make it quadratic, or exponential, or logarithmic, or anything else).

Is it possible to set a limit on how expensive the upgrade point can be? And if I add KCT to an existing save will I receive a point for each tech already unlocked?

Can't say for sure about adding to an existing save, but there is a file in the KCT folder - KCT_formulas.cfg - where you can change the formula for the cost.

For example, to change the cost in funds, take a look at the UpgradeFundsFormula: min(2^([N]+4) * 1000, 1024000)

1024000 is the maximum. Change that, and you change how expensive it gets. If you want a single, unchanging cost, just replace the whole thing with a single number.

You should receive any upgrades for already completed nodes. If not, let me know and I'll walk you through adding them (and I'll try to fix whatever bug prevented them from showing up in the first place). As for setting the limit on upgrade points, Drake1500 covers it pretty well. The limit is currently 1,024,000 funds, or 512 science. You can just change that number to change the maximum, or you can change the formula entirely if you'd like.

I seem to have been getting upgrade points I haven't purchased, is this a feature I somehow missed in the documentation? Coincidentally I have 5 points I didn't purchase, and have unlocked 5 science nodes, perhaps it is related to the way I have modified the config file, but I can't seem to find anything in there.

It was months ago that I made those modifications so they're rather cryptic to me at the moment, I'm running with a x5 build point multiplier and wanted development slowed down significantly, then factoring in research and construction increases for upgraded facilities, though only a 50% bonus per level. The first R&D center upgrade takes just over a year XD.

Edit: So completing nodes and upgrading buildings gives upgrade points? That's great. I've also messed with my formulas a bit more since this post.

Edit: I've found a minor UI bug, multiple open KCT windows seem to have their scroll bar linked.

I had my VAB tab open with a bunch of stuff queued and a long scroll bar to reach the bottom where I had a rocket waiting for rollout, But I still had the upgrade window open, which had a short scroll bar to reach the bottom VAB speed upgrades.

When I clicked the VAB construction scrollbar and dragged it down it stopped partway, I could see the scrollbar of the upgrade window being highlighted and moving around in unison with the VAB toolbar I was moving.

Very minor bug really as I could just close the upgrade window which freed up the other scrollbar.

Yeah, you get upgrades for unlocking nodes in the tech tree. I might provide some options for disabling and/or changing that (perhaps in the upcoming preset config options, which is redoing the entire basic settings system, but the formulas will be mostly unchanged). When the API comes out afterward, people will be able to give (and probably take) upgrade points through other mods to define their own progression. For instance, someone could write a sandbox mod for KCT that awards upgrades for landing on planets and moons. I might even do that as a test plugin when working on the API

As for the UI bug, most of the scrollbars use a single variable out of laziness, and because most of the time the windows aren't opened at the same time. Eventually I want to go through and try to clean up the GUIs a bit more, but until then I'll probably just keep it as is

you always get upgrade points for achieving stuff. Otherwise you would take ages to build/research stuff in the later game. Also it's time to thank themagico13 again for this mod, it's a must have for a couple of installs now. If only his lps came back

edit: noooooooo, can't give him rep right now. Quick, someone else do it for me!

I'd love to be able to do the lets plays again, but I just don't have the time I haven't even streamed in months. I'm trying to arrange things so I have a set time each week just to work on modding, since I'm trying to not have to give that up as well, but depending on how busy things get this coming year, I might have to take some time off. Right now I can usually put in a bit of work each week. I made some really good progress on the Presets on Saturday and am just working on the GUI for it now, but all the internal stuff works, including finding presets included in other mod folders (which will be great for RP-0). I'm going to be making a few more changes to the Preset specifications (I need to add a setting or two), but it appears to be working correctly so far, which is awesome

[MarcAFK]

Is there a limit to how much faster a part can be constructed after being made multiple times? Or is the increased speed based on a formula that pretty much only gives very tiny speed increases after the first few builds?

[Mars Mullo]

I think I have found an unintended cheat mode....

In KCT if you get a contract to test the launch stability enhancers (LSE)from the launch pad then rejoice.

I built a very cheap and effective "Tourist bus"to take tourists to suborbital flights.

However it sits on it's LV-T45 and can fall over.

But if I add the LSE's and then "duplicate"the build in the KCT list I can just keep duplicating it and use them... even after the test was succesful and the part isn't available anymore.

Test parts for free... havn't tried it with big engines tested yet .. but could a great way to get into orbit without the LV-909 the 55 and the ft-400 that you typical have to have to get anything into orbit.

I am just assuming Vaun Braun kept a hold of those test parts and told the supplier they were destroyed....

[magico13]

Is there a limit to how much faster a part can be constructed after being made multiple times? Or is the increased speed based on a formula that pretty much only gives very tiny speed increases after the first few builds?

The formula has greater effects at first, and lessens as you use it more. It's roughly 1/sqrt(N), where N is the number of times you've used the part. There was a bit of talk about changing that, but I'm not sure if Drake1500 ended up coming up with an alternative config (you can redefine nearly every formula KCT uses, check here for a tutorial Looking a few posts back, you seem to already be aware of that.) Since you appear to be ok with modifying the KCT_Formulas.cfg file, here are the formulas that control the behavior:

EffectivePartFormula = min([C]/([I] + ([B]*([U]+1))), [C])
ProceduralPartFormula = (([C]-[A]) + ([A]*10/max([I],1))) / max([B]*([U]+1),1)
BPFormula = ([E]^(1/2))*2000*[O]

in the EffectivePartFormula(EPF) is the number of times a part has been used. As you can see, EPF is proportional to 1/. EPF is calculated once per part on a vessel and added up to give the [E] in the BPFormula. In that, [E] gets square rooted, meaning the final BP is very roughly proportional to 1/sqrt(). Other parts come into play and change that up a lot, and I provide example cases in the first link above. You may want to adjust that to give a smaller, but steady decrease in time.

I am looking for interesting configurations of KCT_Formulas.cfg, KCT_TimeSettings.txt, and the "Defaults" section of the settings. Those three will be merged into one file called a Preset in the next update, and I'd like to have a few different Presets available. They represent different play styles that people can choose from when starting a new game. Currently I've got "Default", "Simulations Only", "Disabled", and what I've been calling "Simple" which doesn't use upgrade points (might call it "Stockalike" or similar). Presets can also be added by other mods in their own folders (by including a KCT_Presets folder), so mods like RP-0 can ship KCT presets even without KCT being installed.

I think I have found an unintended cheat mode....

They're not free perse. You still pay funds for them, but yes, you can still get test parts even without having those nodes unlocked. Actually, you don't even have to duplicate a ship. Just load a ship that was saved with experimental parts, rip off everything else, and either save the experimental parts as a subassembly or build a new ship around them. KCT will let you build (but not simulate, since that's a stock function) the ship.

There's a really simple reason: If you purchase a tech node that contains the experimental part, you can no longer access it in the part catalog. So basically, if you take a part testing contract, then purchase the node with that part in it but have to wait for it to unlock, you can't test that part until the node is finished.

I can really easily prevent you from building ships with experimental parts without the node unlocked or a contract, but I haven't yet found a way to make the part appear in the part catalog. Mostly that's because I haven't tried very hard. Here's a GitHub issue about it that i made last November.

[Galenmacil]

Awesome MOD magico13, thanks.

A quick suggestion for hardcore players (like myself): Could you add a simple config switch to disable simulation completely?

This would redefine testing and Kerbal security on new prototype...

[magico13]

A quick suggestion for hardcore players (like myself): Could you add a simple config switch to disable simulation completely?

I find the simulations shine brightest in hardcore mode because they give you a way to test designs before committing, but I'll add it as an option in the settings rework I'm doing Soon-ish simulations will be broken into a different mod, so the way to handle that will to just not install that mod, but until then a simple config option won't be hard to include

You could also just not use them

[MarcAFK]

I would be pretty happy if simulation cost could be changed, I've been running all my sims at whatever time setting would cost 20% the rockets entire cost, it's costly enough that you will use it very sparingly, but cheaper than total disaster.

Also I'll reduce the testing cost when rerunning the test. I'll have a look at those build rate modifier numbers soon, I want an equation that gives incremental bonuses at first which quickly slow down then eventually after maybe 100 builds get so small as to be virtually non existent, then I'll rebalance build points so that when that point is reached you're building things quickly but not insanely so, not without massive upgrading to the VAB.

[hoylemd]

I Searched this thread, but I couldn't find my answer.

What controls how long it takes to upgrade KSC buildings?