Artificial metablism of ethanol

[Idobox]

I recently discovered the existence of ethanol dehydrogenase enzymes who basically turn ethanol into acetyldehyde, a toxic compound, that can itself be metabolized into acetic acid (vinegar) by aledhyde dehydrogenase 2 enzymes.

And then I thought of all the people fighting against alcoholism, and how it could possibly help them.

If you made a porous glass bead, somehow attached copious amounts of this two enzymes to the surface, and put it somewhere in the digestive tract, ie either the stomach or the duodenum, it could destroy a significant amount of ethanol before it ever reaches the blood stream.

If this doesn't work (because of interactions with other enzymes, solid food, etc), it could also be possible to implant something like that in one of the major veins or artery. This would have the added advantage of working on other ways to absorb alcohol.

A third option could be regular injections of the enzymes, to keep blood levels of it high.

The main issue I see with this is that it would also destroy vitamin A and a few other molecules. The other issue I can see is rapid degradation of the enzymes by other stuff.

Similar solutions could be used to destroy other drugs too.

Of course, this wouldn't be a cure-all, since people could find way of disabling it, or switch to other drugs, but it could help people stay clean by making substance use inefficient.

[lajoswinkler]

You would fail. Vast majority of people drink ethanol to intoxicate themselves. It's free drug and the cost of it is enormous per capita.

If you remove the intoxication by something, rarely anyone would buy it. But kudos for positive thoughts.

[Seret]

I'm assuming he was intending to help addicts who have some motivation to change their behaviour, but need support.

IIRC there are already drugs available to help people avoid drinking. My understanding is that they create nausea in the drinker. That's probably a better bet for behaviour modification as it messes up the reward pathway that addicts have associated with their unwanted behaviour.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Seret

[-Velocity-]

Lajowinkler, that's a rather pessimistic view. I'm surprised, your posts are usually well thought out, but I've never seen you be more wrong about anything on this forum. I know for a fact you are completely incorrect when you say that such a medical technology would not be purchased by anyone. As a person who has a close family member afflicted with alcoholism, I know for a fact that there is a vast number of people out there who would receive enormous benefits from something that eliminated intoxication.

A person who is addicted to alcohol is not addicted to all drugs- they are addicted to ALCOHOL. If you eliminate the effects of alcohol, that doesn't mean they will switch to other drugs. While a person who is dependent on a drug tends to be more prone in general to drug dependency than the general population, physiologically, drug dependency is on a per-substance basis.

Anyway, a treatment to eliminate the effects of intoxication could reap huge benefits to society by returning alcoholic persons to a productive status. You'd still face the problem of getting alcoholics to admit that they have a problem, but treatments could be made mandatory treatment for persons convicted of multiple alcohol related offenses (like DUI or alcohol-related domestic violence). Such a treatment would not only remove a menance to society, but also allow the offender to return to a normal, productive life.

[KerikBalm]

I wouldn't say "discovered", I would say "learned"

These arent' the days of Columbus... discovering things that were already known to others...

Anyway, most enzymes have a fairly narrow pH and salt concentration range, I doubt it would work.

[shynung]

That's actually somewhat unnerving. If the enzyme mixture carrier gets somewhere where the pH and salinity activates one enzyme while leaving the other dormant, it could potentially leave behind acetyldehyde rather than vinegar. That wouldn't be healthy.

[Creature]

There are already some drugs to help alcoholics. An old one is Antabus or disulfiram, which cause extreme nausea from drinking even a small amount of alcohol. It's a pretty harsh way to treat alcoholism, but physiologically effective. It doesn't help with the urge to drink though and obviously the person seeking help must take the treatment. But alcoholism is a mix of physical and psychological symptoms anyway so treatment is always a bit difficult.

Another, newer drug is called Selincro, or nalmefene, which aims to reduce the actual urge to drink. It's supposed to help with some other addictions as well as it targets the opioid receptors themselves in the brain.

As for metabolising alcohol out of a human body there's already a pretty good system in place. It's called the liver You could try to enhance it of course but a human can drink faster than any enzymes can catalyze alcohol out so what you'd get in the end is just that the alcoholic would simply need to drink more in order to get their addiction "satisfied" and they'd sober up faster so they could drink sooner again. Also a person with a serious alcoholism problem can already be very very drunk constantly and still function, which is also a problem in itself.

Even if you could make a drug to sober a person up very fast, wouldn't you think it would actually encourage alcohol abuse as the consequences wouldn't be so severe? Tuesday night, let's get hammered for the evening and sober up during the night with no hangover on wednesday morning's meeting? Repeat on wednesday night because hey, there's a "get to work" -pill.

[KerikBalm]

That's actually somewhat unnerving. If the enzyme mixture carrier gets somewhere where the pH and salinity activates one enzyme while leaving the other dormant, it could potentially leave behind acetyldehyde rather than vinegar. That wouldn't be healthy.

True, I'm just speculating here (as I'm studying RNA processing/stability in Mitochondria, not this metabolic pathway, and I'm too lazy to look it up in the literature)... since you'd want both reactions to happen at the same time (so that aldehyde doesn't build up), they are probably coupled in some way/ localized in the same area, and thus most likely function under the same conditions.

For most mamalian enzymes, the salt concentrations are more or less the same throughout most of the cell, as is the pH (mitochondria and lysosomes excepted).

But I wouldn't expect them to work well in the conditions of your stomach, or in a bottle of whiskey, or beer.

[magnemoe]

As other say, don't think this would work well to cure alcoholism.

See some other uses too, the most interesting is a pill or drink who make you sober, not sure if this will work, secondary would be something to eat just before or after drinking who stop you from getting drunk. Nice if you want wine to an dinner but can not drink, this would be easier.

[crubs]

Well, the human body already produces alcohol dehydrogenase and is capable of carrying out the enzymatic processes you listed.

http://makehumans.com/htmx/alcohol_dehydrogenase.php

According to the link above, there are multiple alcohol dehydrogenases coded by seven genes in the body, and there is at least one form lining the stomach. One idea may be to somehow force the lining of the stomach to overproduce alcohol dehydrogenase and other relevent enzymes. The problem I see is that alcoholics will probably just end up chugging until they overpower the enzyme and get drunk anyways, similar to how many alcohols overcome the effects of emetic treatments. Nonetheless, it would be interesting to see the effects of a study on such a treatment in animals.

[Guest]

I wouldn't say "discovered", I would say "learned"

These arent' the days of Columbus... discovering things that were already known to others...

Be careful with such statements, chances are, he's a chemist and had actually discovered that. In this case, "learned" is accurate (a professional chemist would post about it somewhat differently, if at all, not to mention the process has been known for some time), but keep in mind that people still discover things these days (especially in things like biochemistry), and some of them likely frequent these forums as well. This guy certainly knows what he's talking about, likely a student of chemistry or biology.

I'd say, if this effect could be exploited to stop intoxication, it would be. A drug company that'd find an economical way to make a safe and reliable cure for drunkness would make billions. Here, I can see a problem with toxicity, though it does seem this process happens in human body, so maybe there isn't any need for externally supplying the enzyme... If it hasn't been studied already (might've been), then it could be a good idea to take a look at this.

[lajoswinkler]

Lajowinkler, that's a rather pessimistic view. I'm surprised, your posts are usually well thought out, but I've never seen you be more wrong about anything on this forum. I know for a fact you are completely incorrect when you say that such a medical technology would not be purchased by anyone. As a person who has a close family member afflicted with alcoholism, I know for a fact that there is a vast number of people out there who would receive enormous benefits from something that eliminated intoxication.

A person who is addicted to alcohol is not addicted to all drugs- they are addicted to ALCOHOL. If you eliminate the effects of alcohol, that doesn't mean they will switch to other drugs. While a person who is dependent on a drug tends to be more prone in general to drug dependency than the general population, physiologically, drug dependency is on a per-substance basis.

Anyway, a treatment to eliminate the effects of intoxication could reap huge benefits to society by returning alcoholic persons to a productive status. You'd still face the problem of getting alcoholics to admit that they have a problem, but treatments could be made mandatory treatment for persons convicted of multiple alcohol related offenses (like DUI or alcohol-related domestic violence). Such a treatment would not only remove a menance to society, but also allow the offender to return to a normal, productive life.

Alcoholism is something else. It's a severe addiction and not many people are truly alcoholics. I wasn't talking about them. Most of them would like to quit, but they can't. Hence they're addicts, obviously.

I was referring to typical binge-drinking people. End of the work week and you see them in bars. In most European countries, especially post-socialist ones, the youth is horribly into such practice. They rarely drink during the week, but they get wasted at the weekend. I remember the time when this was something only Scandinavian countries were famous for, which was described as battling endemic anxiety because of disturbed melatonin levels when modern way of life clashes with northern nights and cloudy weather. It has spread since then. I've talked to my parents who were young in the 70s about this and they said there were obviously people who did binge drinking, but it wasn't nearly as widespread like today. Today it has become socially acceptable to drink enough to puke and lie in the park like a corpse, let alone get so wasted you don't remember what has happened. As someone who doesn't drink alcohol at all I find this disturbing, and I must say it does have a negative influence on my social life because it's difficult to be accepted in such society. I'm not one of those people who attack others because of their drinking, but most of them have a problem with my sobriety.

I've talked to lots of people about this and they simply say they can't have fun without being at least tipsy anymore. They feel anxious, awkward, they lack the ability to have a meaningful and fun conversation, they clench their phones and don't look people in the eyes. It has become a widespread social disease.

They are not addicted, they simply want to use ethanol as a weekend drug in order to be able to socialize and because they don't want to be outcasts and that's ....ing sad.

They're the majority and they will not want a drug that removes the intoxication effect.

What's even more scary is how even lots of sitcoms promote and glorify such way of life. What the future holds... I have no idea.

[Armchair Rocket Scientist]

I'm assuming he was intending to help addicts who have some motivation to change their behaviour, but need support.

IIRC there are already drugs available to help people avoid drinking. My understanding is that they create nausea in the drinker. That's probably a better bet for behaviour modification as it messes up the reward pathway that addicts have associated with their unwanted behaviour.

Don't alcoholics frequently drink to the point that they throw up anyway?

[KerikBalm]

Be careful with such statements, chances are, he's a chemist and had actually discovered that. In this case, "learned" is accurate (a professional chemist would post about it somewhat differently, if at all, not to mention the process has been known for some time), but keep in mind that people still discover things these days (especially in things like biochemistry), and some of them likely frequent these forums as well. This guy certainly knows what he's talking about, likely a student of chemistry or biology.

When it comes to this subject, I think I know well enough to not need to be too careful.

I'm well aware that people still discover things these days.

For example, I've discovered the effect of knocking out the genes FASTKD1 and FASTKD4... (not ready to publish yet, and I doubt anyone here would care about this subject).

I'm well aware that alcohol dehydrogenase genes are already known, and it was quite clear that the OP just learned about them.

[Idobox]

Thanks for all your answers. I was away from my computer and couldn't participate in the discussion.

I was indeed talking of addicts trying to get better. Binge drinkers and affiliates wouldn't take a treatment that destroys the effect of alcohol anyway.

Changing the expression of genes, or forcing a massive fabrication of enzymes by the liver sound difficult and likely to have nasty side effects.

I didn't know about vomit inducing drugs, they seem like a quite efficient and simple way to reach the same goal. It's difficult to get drunk if you can't keep alcohol in your stomach, also the strong negative feedback would help deprogram/reprogram the addictive behaviour.

[Vanamonde]

Hmm. Overlooked this when it was originally posted. Folks, please keep in mind that we have many younger people on our forum, and so we have ruled that discussions of drug use and intoxication are not appropriate here, so this thread will now be closed.