"Das Dunaprojekt" or Duna von Braun Style -- Now with SCIENCE and Finance!

[Death Engineering]

7 hours ago, Ourworldalpha1 said:

 

If you let Me Use Tweakscale+SMURFF

I Will Do this Challenge in HalfRSS-Stock scales X5 to Smooth over the fact i am using Mods

 

All those mods are fine. Looking forward to seeing what you can do with a replica! 

[Ourworldalpha1]

Glad to here it 

First mission may take a bit because i need to design the Ships,

But after that it will be faster,

P.s I made a (Mariner 2 and LV-Pioneer 5 and LV-LADEE-Minatour V-With 5 more in progress)

[DBowman]

Hi Death Engineering,

I was interested to do this challenge; either just for fun or within your rules if you are still running this.

I had a couple of questions though:

1. "MEM can employ aerodynamic deceleration" means I can separate the MEM while in transit to Duna and capture / direct enter it? I was thinking as late as possible while able to get a few hours separation between Main vehicle and MEM maneuvers (for low stress piloting).
2. For the "cargo" mass I thought to just use a combination of ore tanks (with "enough ore") and "otherwise non functional" structural elements. That's fine right? It's supposed to be life support consumables, maybe "tents" and equipment for the landing party? Also I was going to actually bring back 1 ton of "cargo" on the EEV - we are doing that right? I guess that ton would be in addition to the 6 ton "return cargo".
3. Living space: I couldn't see anything re this. I've seen other challenges where for long term one has to provide "double seats", but for this it's okay that they just use the EEV & MEV seats?
4.  Often I magic a probe into a "guide" orbit, set a node that the real vehicles can use as a reference. I look at this as just navigation support. Are you okay with me doing that? Realism rationale could be that Das Dunaprojekt Management would probably have a couple things in orbit round Duna anyway... How about flying them in? I guess I could have the Duna probes encounter a few days early and get the same effect there...
5. The rationale for the EMVE missions was shorter return flight time. When I use Pladd's flyby finder most of the DEK flybys are longer (much longer) than a DK direct, the ones that are short are much more dV. So if I wanted to follow the "form" of KDEK I could be lighter/cheaper than following the purpose of KDEK. I don't know if it's a fluke of the Kerbosystem that the rationale doesn't really exist (or maybe they are also so rare and expensive in reality?) One could have a reference flight plan to just make the challenge about engineering and flight or somehow have a metric around travel time. What do you think?

Anyway I've had some fun with vehicle design anyway. thanks for the thought etc you have put into this so far.

cheers,

DBowman

[Death Engineering]

On 8/26/2018 at 10:10 PM, DBowman said:

Hi Death Engineering,

I was interested to do this challenge; either just for fun or within your rules if you are still running this.

Sure, I'd be glad to help keep this challenge rolling! Sorry I missed your post back there..   

I've also updated the reference links as they seem to have been moved on astronautix.com

On 8/26/2018 at 10:10 PM, DBowman said:

I had a couple of questions though:

1. The MEM should stay attached to the PMM until at least in a Duna elliptical orbit.
2. Right, use pretty much whatever you think works for the expendable mass. Ore is great, actually.
3. There isn't a crew accommodation rule in this challenge.
4. If you are referring to communication needs, I'm fine with not even enabling 'comms' for this challenge. If you're referring to the DSSR (sample return probes), those should stay attached to the PMM until Duna orbit.
5. This is what astronautix.com has to say about the mission profile:
         "28 February 1983: Venus swingby. This reduces the velocity at the return to earth, and provided an
         additional science opportunity. Four probes were dropped into the atmosphere of Venus."
   On my last attempt at this mission, there was about 300 m/s savings at the Kerbin return injection burn but there was not a savings in travel time or mission time.

 

[jinnantonix]

Hi Death Engineering, 

Glad this is still running, I love the concept.  Here is my design so far, 100% stock parts.  The craft is a tad expensive, but I have not spared a cent when it comes to the science instruments - collecting science points is my focus.  The components (MEM, EEM and probes) test well, but still need to actually do the mission to determine I have done the dV calcs correctly. 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by jinnantonix

[Death Engineering]

On 9/4/2018 at 10:23 AM, jinnantonix said:

The craft is a tad expensive, but I have not spared a cent when it comes to the science instruments - collecting science points is my focus.

With the right mission the science opportunities are bountiful!

[jinnantonix]

Here is my design for a Von Braun style MEM 

 

*-----

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by jinnantonix

[DAL59]

Wow this challenge is 4 years old and still running

[jinnantonix]

This is a brilliant challenge.  Creating a stock craft that matches the original von Braun concept has been great fun.  Currently doing final testing of the EEM hitting the Kerbin atmosphere at up to 18 km/s - plenty of explosions and dead test pilots.  I have also added a few cool features that were not specified by von Braun e.g. creating a 6 berth habitat ring in the PMM ( with artificial gravity) to provide a healthy and comfortable habitat for the Kerbonauts while in transit.  I expect to have completed the mission in a few days, 100% stock with with zero mods, and expect to document it on YouTube.

[jinnantonix]

Das Duna Projekt (DDP) Mission Completed:  

 

DDP craft:  100% stock parts, no mods used (zero, zip, zilch nada)  

• Cost in LKO: 325,602 funds
• Mass in LKO: 102.166 tonnes 
• Dry mass: 57.734 tonnes
• Propellant fraction: 0.435
• Mass per crew 102.166 / 6  = 17.03
• Science points:  20,578 !!! https://imgur.com/a/vuxRO8b 

Note:  The mission attempted to capture all science points available within mission constraints.  This meant including materials bay, comms, batteries for transmissions etc The mission also included adjusting for polar Duna orbit and added decouplers and chutes to the EEM to recover the 3 separate command pods with flyby, suborbital and orbital data separated.  This meant the mission needed more parts, fuel and tanks and so was more expensive.

Edited September 12, 2018 by jinnantonix

[Death Engineering]

Fantastic mission @jinnantonix and awesome video!

Gold * Star for accurate appearance, especially the Duna lander/ascent module.  Was that spin stabilization or simulated gravity? Nice use of stock parts to build the habitat ring. BTW, what version was this under? Doesn't affect scoring but I've been posting that as part of the results table.

Leaderboard updated and congrats on the massive science score and taking top place in Propellant Mass Fraction!

[jinnantonix]

Thanks DE, I really enjoyed this challenge.  The spinning was intended to provide artificial gravity to the habitat ring.  Version is 1.4.5

[DBowman]

I completed^* Das Dunaprojekt yesterday. I present Das DunaBoot:

I tried to mass minimize without going crazy, there are some tricks but mainly "reduce, reuse".

My aesthetic was alt seventies: modular reused elements and no cross feed / ducts / moving propellant around.

I aggressively used highly elliptical orbits and Pe kicks.

The parts are assemble-able in orbit but I lifted it whole.

The album is here it's just the highlights ...

Thanks for managing the challenge! Von Braun is always fun... I'd earlier done a von Braun "Conquest of the Munn" in "what did you do in ksp today" hmm maybe album link is snafued.. Conquest of the Munn link

^* For some values of "competed" I'm a terrible landing pilot so I let MJeb "take the wheel for Duna descents", so no point do the ascents either. I intend to go back to quicksaves and "do it myself" but for now I'm content that everything worked as planned even in the face of a few glitches

Edited October 14, 2018 by DBowman
change pic

[jinnantonix]

@DBowman very clever use of orbital mechanics to reduce fuel usage.  Also liked your idea of re-using the franken capsule Duna Ascent vehicle for Kerbin re-entry.  Although not sure Werner would have landed it on Duna upside down

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by jinnantonix

[DBowman]

@jinnantonix the upside down bothered me also... I just figured out in a quicksave that I could have done this...

unock/decouple here will give a "big" kick to DEM cap and tank.

Decouple DEM from the tank will give a little kick the other way.

If you are quick when you flip the DEM cap over the magnetic docks will catch...

ridiculous, but doable. Worst case I guess Jeb gets out and gives it a shove.

[Death Engineering]

On 10/13/2018 at 3:21 AM, DBowman said:

I completed^* Das Dunaprojekt yesterday. I present Das DunaBoot:

Great to see this challenge still inspiring entries and pushing the limits of scoring! To the top of 'Cost' and 'Mass-fraction' scores comes @DBowman with some interesting elements from Wernher's original plan I don't think I've seen here yet most notably the steep elliptical parking orbit around Duna. Nice use of available tools to make the transit happen!  Adding those links to the OP with the score table update.

Some questions..

1. Did the elliptical orbit save any delta-v on the Duna departure burn? The trick I should think would be to get the orbit such that the Pe around Duna would be at a beneficial Oberth-effect point when the Eve transfer window approaches.
2. Were there any transit time or missing time savings with the Duna-Eve-Kerbin encounter that you used?
3. I don't see the mass in KSP "t" for the 'Mass per kerbal'..
4. What was the version of KSP you were using?

 

[DBowman]

Thanks @Death Engineering a compelling and good fun challenge. I'd also recommend the Apollo Applications one; start with the actual Apollo missions and then push it into the seventies - Eve flyby, Duna, I stalled out working on a Jool 5 (all with TAC life support).

1. It would have if the HEDO Pe had ended up in the right place. The idea was to boost the light DSSRPs and DEM into the HEDO and then burn directly from there, but finding a KD that approaches at the right angle probably isn't easy. I ended up having to circularize prior to Eve injection, so the savings came from dropping everything from Ap. Hmm, I guess one could just try a few KDs...
2. I was just happy to find the DEK   DEK 428 days @ 2290 m/s vs DK 311 days @ 3000 m/s. So it took longer, but lower deltaV - though only about 130 m/s less at the D departure where all the mass is. I think I recall more recent Mars talk being to use Venus to cut time (radiation risk) but maybe they were happy to pay higher deltaV to do it, also in real life there is the time / life support mass factor.
3. 9.599 ton per crew
4. version 1.4.5

Edited October 17, 2018 by DBowman

[Death Engineering]

Updated some of the links and made some minor wording updates (no changes to actual challenge). Also added some information regarding the 'cargo' requirement and how the 'ore' resource may be used.

 

On 10/15/2018 at 6:08 PM, DBowman said:

I'd also recommend the Apollo Applications one; start with the actual Apollo missions and then push it into the seventies [..]

Might just do that..    Sure had fun building this McDonnell Douglas 'Phase B' derived space station complete with Big Gemini (stock KSP ~ 0.23). An audacious five Saturn INT-21 launches would have be required.. ahh, the 70's.   

  

 

[Speeding Mullet]

Well, this thread is nearly a year old, but OP still hangs out, and this is a Heritage Challenge, so the massive necro-post is entirely justified

 

 

This mission has always been unfinished business for me.  I originally signaled intent in October 2014 and started my first foray into one of Death's challenges,which are regarded as detailed, well thought out, and challenging.  Fast forward to April 2015 and I'd melted my copy of KSP under the weight of mods and irretrievably broken my game, and my will to play KSP for some time afterwards.  Here is my failed Dunaprojekt.

Fast forward again...nearly 4.5 years.  I present my unfinished business - A collaboration of Goliath National Products, C7 Aerospace, Maxo Construction Toys, Probodobodyne, Steadlier Engineering Corps, and of course Dinkelstein Kerman's Construction Emporium.  I even through in an Elcano of Duna for good measure

 

 

VON BRAUNCANO - A DAS DUNAPROJEKT MISSION REPORT

 

FULL MISSION REPORT

As you go through the mission report you will see Mission Logs numbers with links to the full mission detail, and below each link to the imgur album with full details you will see a mission summary by way of some explanation and a couple of pertinent pictures.

MISSION STATISTICS

 

Mission Statistics:

• Version - Stock 1.7.0
• Wet weight - 198.585t
• Dry weight - 124.575t
• Total mission cost - 293,809 snacks
• Propellant mass fraction - 0.3726867588
• Mass per crew - 33.0975
• Science points - This is not a science mission

Crew Manifest:

• Gusbert Kerman - Scientist
• Hans Kerman - Scientist
• Kagas Kerman - Pilot
• Ragas Kerman - Pilot
• Endous Kerman - Engineer
• Dudgar Kerman - Engineer

Cannot recommend this challenge enough for those looking to do something interesting and meaningful in KSP

SM

[Death Engineering]

On 8/26/2019 at 3:34 AM, Speeding Mullet said:

VON BRAUNCANO - A DAS DUNAPROJEKT MISSION REPORT

Fantastic.. and an Elkano haha that is classic!  I never turn down the opportunity for a slow-burn mission in KSP.. although yours was much faster than I've traversed Duna!

Great score with a match on the best 'Propellant Mass Fraction'!  

Congrats and lizardboard updated!  

 

On 8/26/2019 at 3:34 AM, Speeding Mullet said:

.OP still hangs out..

This is indeed true and I'm happy to say that I'll be back more regularly to check on challenge updates and questions. I started a new job in January and it has been quite a year but things are at a point where I'll be able to keep track of things better moving forward.

 

edit:
BTW.. which version of KSP was this completed in?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Death Engineering
jeebuzz..

[Death Engineering]

Took a swing through the OP and corrected some links and formatting. Also found this very high quality PDF scan of the original von Braun presentation for the early 80's Mars mission that this challenge is based on:

Manned Mars Landing Presentation to the Space Task Group (von Braun, 1969)     Mirror

[Death Engineering]

Oh yeah.. let's GO!

[Death Engineering]

Das Dunaprojekt mission ...

 

PMM on Saturn V

PPM on Saturn IB

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Death Engineering

[Death Engineering]

Das Dunaprojekt 

The Mighty Saturn V carried the PPM to orbit where a skeleton krew checked it out before the launch of 4 S II-B's carried the three propulsion modules to their rendezvous and docking. 

Carefully aligning the lateral PPM's to the main PPM is critical to ensure stability during the three outbound burns

With the mission fully assembled and fueled, the crew arrive for their trip to Duna.

Leaving Kerbin behind, the crew take one last look.

Meanwhile back on the Space Station, the PPM's return to be re-used.

Once at Duna, the crew use Ike's orbit to pull their PMM into a highly elliptical orbit with a low-altitude fly--by.

Safely in Duna's orbit, the crew unpack the MEM and prepare to take it down.

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Death Engineering

[Death Engineering]

Another Happy Landing..

With the landing zone aligned with the Pe of its elliptical orbit, the krew moved to the MEM and prepared to land.

 

Using a combination of chutes and powered descent, the MEM descended quickly through Duna's wispy thin atmosphere. 

Engines-on, the landing zone is adjusted to avoid a steep incline.

With these three in charge, Duna may not ever be the same..