Funds to science Admin Strategy is really overpowered

[webkilla]

With the new admin building and the option to take a percentage of the funds you get in, and convert it straight to science I barely even need to do science in my missions anymore....

and I think that's kinda broken.

Especially since it appears that I also get science from the funds I get in advance when accepting a mission. Outsourcing R&D? More like having the game play itself without you...

Once I managed to set it to take 50% of funds from missions... and convert that with a 32 credit -> 1 science ratio? Well... imagine what my science 'bank' looks like after a few missions that pay out +30.000 to begin with.

I shouldn't have to explain how horribly broken this is.

On the plus side: I've gotten all the new spaceplane bits unlocked, the RAPIER engine, AND all the science components unlocked - and I haven't even reached orbit yet.

I'll admit that I'm running on Normal difficulty - though I even set it so I had to buy each new science-unlocked component - and even then I never had any trouble getting what I needed.

These conversion ratios need to be nerfed BADLY. I haven't worked on any of the other strategies yet...

[fairytalefox]

Second that.

and I think that's kinda broken.

...and by "kinda" we mean "terribly and horribly".

Like, opening all the tech tree in ten missions. Unmanned since the first probe core became available. No return. One single 200 kg probe with 1 (one) science tool on board landed at Eve brings about 2000 science points. They jokingly call it "moderate difficulty".

On the other hand, it still takes longer than Morrowind world record speedrun (about 3 minutes IIRC)

[malkuth]

Yeah I think the conversion should be around 1000 funds for 1 science.

You can change it yourself in the strategies.cfg file though pretty easy if you can't wait.

[PatPL]

I have unlocked whole tree in 3 flights:

1st gave small amount of reputation

2nd gave a lot more rep funds -> rep

3rd i've unlocked funds -> science and completed bunch of contracts in one flight | 13400 science

Edited October 9, 2014 by PatPL

[webkilla]

I have unlocked whole tree in 3 flights:

1st gave small amount of reputation

2nd gave a lot more rep funds -> rep

3rd i've unlocked funds -> science and completed bunch of contracts in one flight | 13400 science

Wanna bet that Scott Manley will put out a video in a few days where he unlocks the entire tech tree in one flight thanks to these things?

[Tery215]

If you ever start to think something's overpowered, you can just make the game harder.

That's one of the things they added, right?

[Franklin]

If you ever start to think something's overpowered, you can just make the game harder.

That's one of the things they added, right?

Yeah, but not with regards to the strategy returns. It's X Funds = 1 Science with a slider that you can move to determine how much of your funds is committed to this exchange, and X is super tiny no matter the difficulty, which is the OP part. So the only way the difficulty panel would impact this is to reduce funds payout from contracts so much that you gain no money at all, thereby never giving you much of a return in strategies. But then you also can't build anything or buy any parts, so it cripples you elsewhere as well.

Of course one could argue, "Well then just don't use the strategies if you think they're too easy," but that's a stupid argument.

[PatPL]

Wanna bet that Scott Manley will put out a video in a few days where he unlocks the entire tech tree in one flight thanks to these things?

He will have to start with some rep to start this strategy

[problemecium]

Maybe you're too committed. I'm having a similar problem, and the result is that I'm constantly short on funds because I'm converting too much of my revenue to Science points. You could always just deactivate the strategy or use a low commitment factor.

[juanml82]

Of course one could argue, "Well then just don't use the strategies if you think they're too easy," but that's a stupid argument.

No, it's not. Suppose you want to play "sandbox with funds and contracts" because you don't like unlocking the tech tree.

You use that strategy to unlock the tree ASAP and you play the way you want to.

If, instead, you want the challenge of slowly unlocking the tech tree, you choose a different strategy, or no strategy at all.

[Sirrobert]

Can you still pay for your stuf if you lose 50% of your income though? Cause I'm pritty sure recover funds also count as income, and get reduced

[Caelib]

I have said it before and I will continue to say it -- KSP is as hard or easy as you want it to be. That is especially true now that the difficulty settings are exposed through the UI!

[AndrewBCrisp]

From my experience, "income" for the strategies refers specifically to what you get from mission contracts. I'm running the "Outsourced R&D" strategy at 15% and I'm noticing increased science payouts on my missions, but no science payout from the recovery.

I also noticed that some strategies, once applied, preclude other strategies from being used. I suspect this is to keep the game from just generating resources where one strategy feeds another in an endless loop (for example, converting rep to funds, funds to science, science to rep), which is pretty sensible in my opinion.

Given that one has to pick and choose their strategies, and that each strategy comes with a big setup cost (the more commitment, the bigger the setup), and we can see part of the reason why even a small commitment gives a big return. If you decide to change your strategies mid-game, that will likely eat up any profit from your old strategies. When I activated the Open Sourced Tech strategy, it gulped down roughly half of my accumulated science by that point. We might have to tweak the returns a bit, but tweak them too much and we're back to grinding for science or funds or rep, which stops being fun after a while.

[Seio]

Wouldn't this be fixable just by reducing your income? If you would reduce it to like 10-20% you might not be able to convert any of your funds to science... and you would maybe even need to convert rep into funds as well.

At this point science is kind of pointless, but I don't really mind it, science atm is pretty useless... Since you have to buy the parts funds kind of becomes the real science (if you would turn down funds gain).

Still though, you can just put a ship into orbit and endlessly transmit science around kerbin completely free with huge pay outs.

[webkilla]

No, it's not. Suppose you want to play "sandbox with funds and contracts" because you don't like unlocking the tech tree.

You use that strategy to unlock the tree ASAP and you play the way you want to.

If, instead, you want the challenge of slowly unlocking the tech tree, you choose a different strategy, or no strategy at all.

ya - this is just a question of a new feature that came and QA missed how easily it could break the game

Previously I'd need somewhere between 10 and 20 landings on Mün and Minmus to unlock everything...

This clearly just needs to be scaled down

[webkilla]

From my experience, "income" for the strategies refers specifically to what you get from mission contracts. I'm running the "Outsourced R&D" strategy at 15% and I'm noticing increased science payouts on my missions, but no science payout from the recovery.

I also noticed that some strategies, once applied, preclude other strategies from being used. I suspect this is to keep the game from just generating resources where one strategy feeds another in an endless loop (for example, converting rep to funds, funds to science, science to rep), which is pretty sensible in my opinion.

Given that one has to pick and choose their strategies, and that each strategy comes with a big setup cost (the more commitment, the bigger the setup), and we can see part of the reason why even a small commitment gives a big return. If you decide to change your strategies mid-game, that will likely eat up any profit from your old strategies. When I activated the Open Sourced Tech strategy, it gulped down roughly half of my accumulated science by that point. We might have to tweak the returns a bit, but tweak them too much and we're back to grinding for science or funds or rep, which stops being fun after a while.

yes - we can fix this ourselves, easily - by fiddling with the difficulty settings

the point is that we shouldn't have to. Simply sliding the strategy-commitment bar up to 50% on a random strategy shouldn't alter how the game plays out this massively.

[juanml82]

ya - this is just a question of a new feature that came and QA missed how easily it could break the game

Previously I'd need somewhere between 10 and 20 landings on Mün and Minmus to unlock everything...

This clearly just needs to be scaled down

I don't think it breaks the game and it may very well be intentional. As I said, some players want contracts and funds, but don't want science - that was one of the complaints when 0.24.2 came around. This resolves that issue. You, particularly, may not like that type of gameplay. But this is a sandbox game and one that it's getting the option of being customized for different playstyles.

[webkilla]

I don't think it breaks the game and it may very well be intentional. As I said, some players want contracts and funds, but don't want science - that was one of the complaints when 0.24.2 came around. This resolves that issue. You, particularly, may not like that type of gameplay. But this is a sandbox game and one that it's getting the option of being customized for different playstyles.

If that's how you want to run, you can set the difficulty so you start with 5000 science

and if you purely want sandboxing - then there's creative mode.

The problem is that the strategies, if used in the right way, remove any and all challenge in the game - it removes the need to balance spaceship cost with science input

[Chewy]

I don't think anyone has brought up the point that it now costs money to research parts in the tech tree as well if you have the difficulty set that way. Science only unlocks the node, so using that strategy of converting 50% of your funds to science, doesn't allow you to use any parts until you pay to research them.

[Torquemadus]

I'll admit that I'm running on Normal difficulty

Prior to 0.25, we had a tech tree that we could blow wide open in a few launches, without ever needing to fly beyond Kerbin's moons. We had a contracts system that was effectively a license to print money.

Now we have the Admin Building, which allows us to take our license to print money...and convert money into science!

Using the Admin Building in this way does not remove the challenge from Normal difficulty. You can't remove something that wasn't there in the first place.

The Admin Building is intended for use at higher difficulties, where resources are finite and need to be carefully managed.

[LethalDose]

Yeah I think the conversion should be around 1000 funds for 1 science.

You can change it yourself in the strategies.cfg file though pretty easy if you can't wait.

OMG Thanks for pointing this out!

[Teutooni]

When a game is feeling too easy, I usually turn up the difficulty. If it's still too easy, I find some mods to add challenge. Works with pretty much any game with a modding community.

With FAR aerodynamics, deadly reentry, TAC lifesupport, remote tech, etc. I'm hopelessly starved on funds, and wouldn't even dream of trading it for science. Just setting up a constellation of satellites for communications, for which the game gives 0 returns but is something that needs to be done for long range missions, is costing me a fortune. I am actually considering converting science to funds via the strategies because I can't purchase most of the parts I unlock anyway.

[fairytalefox]

So let's admit: the whole science- and funds-related part of the game is imbalanced. More precisely, there are no signs of balance at all.

I'm not complaining, like, "OMG the balance is broken I have no challenge we're all doomed". I can edit configs and such. But guys, really, do you think it's ok and don't have to be fixed before release?

I don't know, maybe it's a right approach, "build first, then adjust". I see a hole, I say "look, there's a hole!" That's all, no whine intended.

[webkilla]

Prior to 0.25, we had a tech tree that we could blow wide open in a few launches, without ever needing to fly beyond Kerbin's moons. We had a contracts system that was effectively a license to print money.

Now we have the Admin Building, which allows us to take our license to print money...and convert money into science!

Using the Admin Building in this way does not remove the challenge from Normal difficulty. You can't remove something that wasn't there in the first place.

The Admin Building is intended for use at higher difficulties, where resources are finite and need to be carefully managed.

...sure, I have no doubt that balancing Strategies on higher difficulty would be crucial

That said, if its meant for higher difficulty - then there's no logic in having it available at lower difficulty, at least not in its current form.

[Meecrob]

While I agree it might be overpowered in its current version, the game mechanic got me playing KSP again. I was as excited as the rest of us for 0.24 and when it hit, I found myself at a wall. I had almost maxed my reputation and had over 2 million in the bank and had only gone as far as Minmus, but constantly lagging was science (I don't find it enjoyable to grind science). After setting up an orbital science lab around Minmus, I burned out of landing and docking after my second landing. I already know how to land and dock and click my mouse - don't need to prove it after doing it hundreds of times. I had explore Duna contracts, but no RTG's or large solar panels unlocked. I know I could cobble something together with a crapton of batteries and 1 x 6 panels, but why bother? I was not excited about 0.25 whatsoever due to the wall I hit, but figured I would try out the SP+ parts....then I found the Admin building and have been pretty much dead to the world due to playing KSP. Again, probably overpowered, but it makes the game more customizeable to different players wants and styles, so overall, I think the idea behind this feature is sound.