Cannae/EmDrive

[softweir]

Conversely, if an experiment shows an effect unexplained by your understanding of physics, it is not the experiment that is wrong but instead it is your understanding of physics.

Assuming that the experiment can be repeated by other researchers. Cold Fusion went against current theories and was a "hot" topic (sorry) for years, and then collapsed into a morass of unrepeatability and badly-designed experimentation. So far, the EM-drive has too few positive results from too few teams to yet be a real challenge to theory.

Still, I am keeping a hopeful, open mind on this one.

[ZetaX]

Only that the people who believe in physics breaking are missing a footnote about virtual particle interaction in near vacuume, but not actually wrong per se. It's an electric propulsion that doesnt need to bring propellant, that works by pushing off the quantum vacuum. it's the second order effects I mention above (VP interaction in near vacuum) that they gloss over, but are important for energy conservation reasons.

You swap between it working in near vacuum only (which it might and violates nothing, and I never disputed that) and it working in true vacuum (which probably is false). Choose one. Whatever you choose, point to where I actually said anything contradictory to that (and don't quote me out of context).

[Rakaydos]

You swap between it working in near vacuum only (which it might and violates nothing, and I never disputed that) and it working in true vacuum (which probably is false). Choose one. Whatever you choose, point to where I actually said anything contradictory to that (and don't quote me out of context).

You claim people are believing a hoax, when they simply arnt understanding the part that makes physics not break (or ignoring it as unimportant).

[ZetaX]

You claim people are believing a hoax, when they simply arnt understanding the part that makes physics not break (or ignoring it as unimportant).

People claim it works in true vacuum (or how else should it work as interstellar drive as many suggested¿). People ignore that their supposed explanations don't match current understandings of physics.

Also, I would not call it a hoax; that would probably require people at eagleworks etc. faking things. Instead, people are just blinded by their expectations. We have seen that many times before.

[Rakaydos]

People claim it works in true vacuum (or how else should it work as interstellar drive as many suggested¿). People ignore that their supposed explanations don't match current understandings of physics.

Also, I would not call it a hoax; that would probably require people at eagleworks etc. faking things. Instead, people are just blinded by their expectations. We have seen that many times before.

They jus dont understand the explanation they repeat, and jump to impossible conclusions. (I've seen people claim tht it would make the Falcon 9 obsolete, despite being impractical for a launch engine)

[PB666]

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

Richard P. Feynman

Conversely, if an experiment shows an effect unexplained by your understanding of physics, it is not the experiment that is wrong but instead it is your understanding of physics.

Or there is an unseen flaw in the experimental design.

The effect has been reproduced by different groups, but that may just mean the humans are prone to certain kinds of errors.

- - - Updated - - -

People claim it works in true vacuum (or how else should it work as interstellar drive as many suggested¿). People ignore that their supposed explanations don't match current understandings of physics.

Also, I would not call it a hoax; that would probably require people at eagleworks etc. faking things. Instead, people are just blinded by their expectations. We have seen that many times before.

The researches aren't able to explain it either. But the wave particle duality of light also went unexplained for a time. The device needs to be tested away from other objects which it could push off of, this is the critical problem. They show a very low level of thrust, and their electronics start to degrade after a time, so there is lots of room to speculate about flaws. I postulated that on the very minute scale the device is imparting momentum via virtual particles and if it tried to increase the force production the effect would saturate quickly (theoretically the force should not accumulate, but uncertainty does allow for random force production, just how large will fluctuations be allowed to build before its no longer random). It may be defining something not yet described in physics, that for a given frequency there is a limit to uncertainty within a given space. Either that or it something completely overlooked in the electronics.

Unlike K2 and Rakaydos, I think the only route here is to test in space or some equivalent circumstances were the proponents can test whether the effect can build indefinitely (e.g. increase a crafts orbit). For the very reasons they give, that the effect _has_ to be a flaw in design is the best reason for testing, because the more they are convinced that the reaction mass issue disallows the force, the more I see that there may be a weakness in physics that the purist are oblivious to.

[K^2]

I postulated that on the very minute scale the device is imparting momentum via virtual particles and if it tried to increase the force production the effect would saturate quickly

"Fantasize" is a better action noun here.

but uncertainty does allow for random force production

Nope. Never. Not under any circumstance.

It may be defining something not yet described in physics, that for a given frequency there is a limit to uncertainty within a given space.

Do you understand what you just said? How about you write down an equation for it. No? That's because you're putting together words you don't understand into a sentence you think has meaning. It doesn't.

I see that there may be a weakness in physics that the purist are oblivious to.

Again, "guessing" is a better word here. You have absolutely no basis for that claim, because in order to see that there is a problem in physics, you first need to understand a little bit of it. Putting together meaningless sentences with words you've heard somewhere is not the same thing.

[Redshift OTF]

I don't know much about the subject but if this does work, could it not be some kind of artificial Casimir effect occurring? I mean the Casimir effect produces thrust but no-one complains that breaks conservation of momentum laws.

[ZetaX]

I don't know much about the subject but if this does work, could it not be some kind of artificial Casimir effect occurring? I mean the Casimir effect produces thrust but no-one complains that breaks conservation of momentum laws.

Casimir does not break conservation of momentum. It also does not produce thrust in the usual meaning of the word. It simply causes a force between two objects.

[Redshift OTF]

Casimir does not break conservation of momentum. It also does not produce thrust in the usual meaning of the word. It simply causes a force between two objects.

Sure, but if the two objects were at an angle, (i.e. two plates), and the plates weren't allowed to come together then there would be a net force forward as the side forces would cancel each other out.

[softweir]

Sure, but if the two objects were at an angle, (i.e. two plates), and the plates weren't allowed to come together then there would be a net force forward as the side forces would cancel each other out.

No, there would be no lateral force, only an attractive force - and one vastly weaker than when they were parallel, acting only at the point of closest approach.

[waterlubber]

May I say...we Cannae change the laws of physics, captain.

[vger]

May I say...we Cannae change the laws of physics, captain.

I already made a meme for that. It's 'somewhere' amongst the last 74 pages...

[Sean Mirrsen]

May I say...we Cannae change the laws of physics, captain.

As said by the chief engineer of a spindly, city-sized superluminal spaceship.

[vger]

As said by the chief engineer of a spindly, city-sized superluminal spaceship.

If the Cannae drive works, I say we start calling it an Impulse Engine.

[Frozen_Heart]

If the Cannae drive works, I say we start calling it an Impulse Engine.

Personally I think its would be cool if it was called a Kraken Drive.

[Vaporo]

I've just been sitting back here just watching people argue back and forth on this for the last month. The argument starts to seem rather circular, after a while.

"The drive has been validated by multiple laboratories."

"It could be exploiting something unknown in physics."

"No, it's unlikely that we've never observed this until now."

"But we are observing it now."

"We're not even sure if it is something previously unobserved. We need to test it in space to be sure."

"But it's been tested in a vacuum. And there was the warp field interferometer (that is what it's called, right?) test."

"Not a perfect vacuum. And the interferometer test was not in a vacuum at all (I think). Only a test in space can be sure of it's functionality. It's probably just experimental error, though."

"But it has been validated by multiple laboratories..."

Personally, I'm just waiting here to see what happens. We'll probably know for certain in a year or two if it works or not (and I really hope that it turns out to work, even though it probably won't), but I don't see too much use arguing about it or trying to hypothesize whether it works until there's more data. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

[Nuke]

honestly i only read this thread in case eagleworks or whoever posts news and the thread explodes.

[Wesreidau]

I will believe this when it is demonstrated by a slightly eccentric sounding guy demonstrating it on YouTube from exactly one fixed camera angle with the device on a table that is in no way concealing anything. Oh, and rocket scientists hate him. If rocket scientists hate him, you know he's not a charlatan.

[Ricvil]

I think the emdrive is just a axion thruster.

The cavity can be thought as a corrugated waveguide ( by mirror simmetry) where a hybrid mode is the source of axion field ( E.B <> 0).

The frequency used on the experiments are close to the models of light axions ( order of micro eletron-volts ~ 1.9 GHz).

The point key the production and acceleration of axions could be some thing related with this:"Resonant radiation pressure on neutral particles in a waveguide"- arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0103017

The article above talks about a ressonant backscattering of neutral particles, where under right conditions of frequency, a "arbitrarily small" polarizable scatter in a wave guide can have a huge effective scattering cross section.Well, the axion has the electrodynamic property of produce electromagnectic polarization due to axion-photon mixing.

The conical geometry of cavity can produce a gradient intensity of the fields inside it, and resulting on a axial non symmetric scattering of axions (produced by the stationary wave of hybrid modes), and thus the thrust is formed.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Ricvil

[Ricvil]

I think the emdrive is just a axion thruster.

The cavity can be thought as a corrugated waveguide ( by mirror simmetry) where a hybrid mode is the source of axion field ( E.B <> 0).

The frequency used on the experiments are close to the models of light axions ( order of micro eletron-volts ~ 1.9 GHz).

The point key the production and acceleration of axions could be some thing related with this:"Resonant radiation pressure on neutral particles in a waveguide"- arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0103017

The article above talks about a ressonant backscattering of neutral particles, where under right conditions of frequency, a "arbitrarily small" polarizable scatter in a wave guide can have a huge effective scattering cross section.

Well, the axion has the electrodynamic property of produce electromagnectic polarization due to axion-photon mixing.

The conical geometry of cavity can produce a gradient intensity of the fields inside it, and resulting on a axial non symmetric scattering of axions (produced by the stationary wave of hybrid modes), and thus the thrust is formed.

[Vanamonde]

Overlapping threads merged.

[Windspren]

Personally I think its would be cool if it was called a Kraken Drive.

This.

[Dodgey]

Overlapping threads merged.

What about the duplicate posts. Comeon chop chop.

(Sorry I become a bit of an donkey at 3am).

On topic is there any new news or is it still sorta defiently kinda confirmed?

[Scotius]

Looks like gag order is still firmly in place. Too bad - i really appreciated getting information not filtrated by sensationalist media