Realism Overhaul Discussion Thread

[Temeter]

49 minutes ago, Phineas Freak said:

I did some tests via a semi - custom part: it used similar stats as the large radiator array but with the part model of the radial radiators. The tank was 10 m x 15 m and filled with LH2 (comparable to the Copernicus NTR stage). At x1000000 about 4 to 6 of them were enough to zero out the boiloff at LEO.

Note that your mileage may vary depending on the environment (LEO or deep space), the propellants (LOX, LH2, LCH4), and the tank size (smaller tanks are worse than larger ones and tanks other than "Cryogenic" and "ServiceModule" are useless).

Edit: ninja'ed! I see that you found it out by yourself!

And here I was wondering how crazy fast you are.^^

Tried a small and a bigger 77t hydrogen vessel now. Both seem to work perfectly fine, too. Very nice; seems much better than the terror of the early days of KSP hydrogen, where you sometimes just ended up with empty tanks.

I think back then we didn't have the differentiation into skin and internal temp, or it worked differently. Analytic doesn't seem to affect internal that much.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Temeter

[Temeter]

So, since I'm going quite nuclear right now, I wanna try adding some engines. More clear, add the Timberwind's and apply them to Kerbal Atomics! (no guarantee I'm gonna suceed tho)

Question: Are those Timberwind numbers realistic enough? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Timberwind

A lot of nuclear equipment seems to turn out much worse than specified by the original design, but I'm not sure how advanced or realistic the Timberwind numbers are. A big step-up from the Nerva doesn't seem too unrealistic in itself.

There are also some unclear things: IE, there is no exact diameter, we only know the upper stage diamater it was supposed to belong to. Is it ok just to make assumptions? (we do know stage diameter of T75 is ~2m, so T45 has to be smaller, etc)

Edited May 30, 2017 by Temeter

[Bornholio]

1 hour ago, Temeter said:

So, since I'm going quite nuclear right now, I wanna try adding some engines. More clear, add the Timberwind's and apply them to Kerbal Atomics! (no guarantee I'm gonna suceed tho)

Question: Are those Timberwind numbers realistic enough? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Timberwind

A lot of nuclear equipment seems to turn out much worse than specified by the original design, but I'm not sure how advanced or realistic the Timberwind numbers are. A big step-up from the Nerva doesn't seem too unrealistic in itself.

There are also some unclear things: IE, there is no exact diameter, we only know the upper stage diamater it was supposed to belong to. Is it ok just to make assumptions? (we do know stage diameter of T75 is ~2m, so T45 has to be smaller, etc)

They are.  Some people second guess them saying they are BS made up by the planners.  This is unlikely however all the data is classified so unless it actually gets built and used the data will not be available until 2045 or later.

The NASA studies for the RFNTR confirm that TWR's this high are possible. Though that never had any real development done only simulations.

Either way you need to have Radiation shield mass in place to be realistic. The best solution for this is conic water tankage close to the drives.  The NERVA's had a built in basic shield included. TW does not. They are also not power generating in any version.

The Bi-modal NTR is the closest to NASA's study from 2012.  https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120003776.pdf take a peek inside the BNTR_Config.cfg for more links.

SXT, CMES & BD Constellation Essentials use the config.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Bornholio

[Temeter]

Thanks, i didn't even know we had modern nuclear configs. Seems like SXT has lots of nuclear engines.

Honestly makes me less interested in creating Timberwind configs, if we already have that. Thought we had no modern nuclear engines set up yet. Well, I'll make it depend on how my first attempt works.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Temeter

[Bornholio]

Too many parts... I'm pushing 6G in VAB now.

Forgot to mention the TW drives are not long run drives like the NERVA's  6-8 minutes before nuclear fuel is spent.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Bornholio

[Temeter]

And I only have 10gb ram currently. Still using DDR3, and that's become rather expensive so upgrading isn't really worth it. But upgrading mainboard is neither.^^'

[Bornholio]

SimpleBoiloff.dll in cryotanks must be my problem then.  /sigh

@Phineas Freak  Thankfully my testing the cryocoolers mod included both with and without.

As you note they are OP and Starwasters mod uses a much more realistic amount of power.  Hopefully the other things on his docket allow him to revisit the issue correctly inside RF.

[AlimOncul]

I saw a new spreadsheet than golden spreadsheet i cant find it anymore is anyone can link it for ro-rp0-1.2.2
 

[Bornholio]

2 hours ago, AlimOncul said:

I saw a new spreadsheet than golden spreadsheet i cant find it anymore is anyone can link it for ro-rp0-1.2.2
 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_dhwSioZODCCtMFD0kZOtbmbg--ryoE0nzoWJL2cRc/edit#gid=0

[AlimOncul]

57 minutes ago, Bornholio said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_dhwSioZODCCtMFD0kZOtbmbg--ryoE0nzoWJL2cRc/edit#gid=0

not this one but thanks

[Phineas Freak]

@AlimOncul https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1it8cZ_t8J67m4oPOvjzgBxHZvSXsvhNTPhlDVqEGTFY/edit

For both KSP 1.2 and 1.3.

[AlimOncul]

I got a bug after trying my first vessel with KRASH simulator it focused empty space and credits to 0.

 

[EXC 13:01:30.641] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
    CityLights.LocalCityComponent.OnPreCull ()

log is full of with these, is this an RSSVE problem?

edit:

i forgot the log file : https://drive.google.com/a/comu.edu.tr/file/d/0B4nr6t0JsY6EYm91bERkeWhxTW8/view?usp=sharing

2nd edit:

i uninstalled RSSVE and EVE and looks okay

3rd edit:

still same thing happens when i load up to launchpad

Edited June 1, 2017 by AlimOncul
i forgot the log file

[Bornholio]

On 5/30/2017 at 9:40 AM, Temeter said:

Thanks, i didn't even know we had modern nuclear configs. Seems like SXT has lots of nuclear engines.

Honestly makes me less interested in creating Timberwind configs, if we already have that. Thought we had no modern nuclear engines set up yet. Well, I'll make it depend on how my first attempt works.

Found and put in a pair of timberwind 45 configs (H2/Methane) and BNTR (307MW Methane).  Working on a set of '70's Peewee derived stats for it.  Unfortunately what I have can be selected in flight with the BNTR mode button.    You could add the shadow mass to the TW's by multiplying the massmultiplier by 1.8-2.8 or more. That or add 1.6-2t of water tank right in front of each. Back calculating the Timberwind 45 I come up with an estimate of 2200MW@3000k and 44.5kg/s for 441kN thrust, 30TWR Puts MM@.660 

BNTR_Config.cfg

Spoiler

//  ==================================================
//  "Bimodal" NTR global engine configuration.

//  Inert Mass: 2270 Kg
//  Throttle Range: N/A
//  Burn Time: 5400 s
//  O/F Ratio: 0 (BNTR), 3.0 (TRITON)

//  Sources:

//      "Bimodal" Nuclear Thermal Rocket (BNTR) Propulsion:                    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20040182399.pdf
//      AIAA - TRITON (TRImodal Thrust Optimized Nuclear rocket engine):       http://alternatewars.com/BBOW/Space_Engines/AIAA-2004-3863_TRITON.pdf
//      Crewed Mars Mission using Bimodal Nuclear Thermal Electric Propulsion: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20140009579.pdf

//  Used by:

//      BahamutoD Constellation Essentials
//      CMES
//      SXT
//  ==================================================

@PART[*]:HAS[#engineType[BNTR]]:FOR[RealismOverhaulEngines]
{
    %category = Engine
    %title = Bimodal NTR
    %manufacturer = Aerojet Rocketdyne
    %description = Low thrust pump-fed expander nuclear engine. Evolved for the original NERVA design the Bimodal NTR, instead of wasting precious propellant mass for cooling the engine reactor, uses a Brayton cycle electricity generator unit to convert the waste thermal energy into useful electrical power. It also supports liquid oxygen injection (TRITON - trimodal operation) for increased thrust but with the cost of a lower overall efficiency.

    @MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
    {
        %EngineType = LiquidFuel
    }

    @MODULE[ModuleGimbal]
    {
        @gimbalRange = 3.0
        %useGimbalResponseSpeed = True
        %gimbalResponseSpeed = 16
    }

    !MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs],*{}

    !MODULE[ModuleHybridEngine],*{}

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleHybridEngine
        type = ModuleEngines
        configuration = BNTR
        modded = False
        origMass = 2.215

        CONFIG
        {
            name = BNTR
            minThrust = 66.72
            maxThrust = 66.72            // Estimate 1:100 Pc/Pe  2800K, k=1.32@2800K, 944ISP(ideal) 7.2kg/s 308MW
            massMult = 1.0
            throttleResponseRate = 0.055 // Should be around 30 seconds to ramp up from 0% thrust to 100% thrust.

            ullage = True
            pressureFed = False
            ignitions = 60

            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = ElectricCharge
                amount = 0.5
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdHydrogen
                ratio = 1.0
                DrawGauge = True
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = EnrichedUranium
                ratio = 1.0813e-15
                DrawGauge = False
                ignoreForIsp = True
            }

            atmosphereCurve
            {
                key = 0 930   //
                key = 1 380
            }
        }
                CONFIG
        {
            name = BNTR METHANE
            minThrust = 100.4
            maxThrust = 100.4            // Estimate 1:2800 Pc/Pe  3000K, k=0.926@3000K, 624ISP(ideal) 16.4kg/s 307MW
            massMult = 1.05
            throttleResponseRate = 0.11 // Should be around 15 seconds to ramp up from 0% thrust to 100% thrust. (Higher Density pumps)

            ullage = True
            pressureFed = False
            ignitions = 60

            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = ElectricCharge
                amount = 0.5
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdMethane
                ratio = 1.0
                DrawGauge = True
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = EnrichedUranium
                ratio = 1.0813e-15
                DrawGauge = False
                ignoreForIsp = True
            }

            atmosphereCurve
            {
                key = 0 624     // Near maximum ISP listed by NASA research studies for Mars derived fuel source (606@2000, 625@3000K, 644@3200K, 671@3500K)
                key = 1 463        // Effective Pc/Pe 100:1  Includes dissociation effects Effective mass @ 2800K = 15.668
            }
        }
        CONFIG
        {
            name = Timberwind 45
            minThrust = 22                // Design would include 6 independent flow paths and operate each as low as 30% Full power hold
            maxThrust = 441.3
            massMult = .66
            throttleResponseRate = 0.15 // Pumping speeds with 2 SNTP carbon turbine pumps should be extremely high and spool up should be near 1/3th time

            ullage = True
            pressureFed = False
            ignitions = 30

            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = ElectricCharge
                amount = 0.5
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdHydrogen
                ratio = 1.0
                DrawGauge = True
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = EnrichedUranium
                ratio = 1.0813e-14            // Ten times comsumption rate
                DrawGauge = False
                ignoreForIsp = True
            }

            atmosphereCurve
            {
                key = 0 1000
                key = 1 890
            }
        }
                CONFIG
        {
            name = Timberwind 45 Methane
            minThrust = 12                // Design would include 18 independent flow paths and operate each as low as 30% Full power hold
            maxThrust = 704
            massMult = 1.108
            throttleResponseRate = 0.55 // Pumping speeds with 4 SNTP pumps should be extremely high and spool up should be near 1/10th time

            ullage = True
            pressureFed = False
            ignitions = 30

            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = ElectricCharge  // Electric primer pumps and heavier solenoids
                amount = 2.5
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdMethane
                ratio = 1.0
                DrawGauge = True
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = EnrichedUranium
                ratio = 1.0813e-14    // Ten times comsumption rate
                DrawGauge = False
                ignoreForIsp = True
            }

            atmosphereCurve
            {
                key = 0 624
                key = 1 514
            }
        }

        CONFIG
        {
            name = TRITON
            minThrust = 182.37
            maxThrust = 182.37
            massMult = 1.0
            throttleResponseRate = 0.055 // Should be around 30 seconds to ramp up from 0% thrust to 100% thrust.

            ullage = True
            pressureFed = False
            ignitions = 60

            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = ElectricCharge
                amount = 0.5
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdHydrogen
                ratio = 0.8430
                DrawGauge = True
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdOxygen
                ratio = 0.1570
                DrawGauge = False
            }

            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = EnrichedUranium
                ratio = 1.0813e-15
                DrawGauge = False
                ignoreForIsp = True
            }

            atmosphereCurve
            {
                key = 0 645
                key = 1 390
            }
        }
    }

    !MODULE[ModuleAlternator],*{}

    !MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter],*{}

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleResourceConverter
        ConverterName = Brayton Generator
        StartActionName = Start Brayton Generator
        StopActionName = Stop Brayton Generator
        AlwaysActive = False
        FillAmount = 1.0
        AutoShutdown = False
        GeneratesHeat = True
        TemperatureModifier = 2.0
        UseSpecializationBonus = False
        DefaultShutoffTemp = 0.75

        INPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = EnrichedUranium
            Ratio = 1.0813e-15
        }

        OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = ElectricCharge
            Ratio = 25.0
        }

        OUTPUT_RESOURCE
        {
            ResourceName = DepletedUranium
            Ratio = 1.0813e-15
        }
    }

    !RESOURCE,*{}

    RESOURCE
    {
        name = EnrichedUranium
        amount = 5
        maxAmount = 5
        isTweakable = False
    }

    RESOURCE
    {
        name = DepletedUranium
        amount = 0
        maxAmount = 5
        isTweakable = False
    }
}

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bornholio

[Temeter]

I'm sitting here for hours 'why the f can't i get this to work', it doesn't do anything.

*skimms through log for the n'th time*

Hm, why is there no reference?

*looks at file*

kerbalatomics.odt

...

...

...

head -> wall

---------------------------------------------------------------

edit: Seems like I completely forgot how to add engines, and the KAtomics engine behave weirdly. I think I'm just going with CMES BNTR, since the configs are so well set up. (kudos to bornholio)

Edited June 2, 2017 by Temeter

[Bornholio]

2 hours ago, Temeter said:

edit: Seems like I completely forgot how to add engines, and the KAtomics engine behave weirdly. I think I'm just going with CMES BNTR, since the configs are so well set up. (kudos to bornholio)

Kerbal Atomics is working for me (+NFE Plugin & NF Mods). The RO configs I'm using mostly for nukes are via SXT parts.  CMES has a bunch of depend's so I left it alone since its all been Dev.  Maybe i should start fanning out with a new fresh install. (Had problems with a nuclear turbine)

Did you notice if the Chaka parts are placed reasonably high on the tech tree?

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bornholio

[Temeter]

6 minutes ago, Bornholio said:

Did you notice if the Chaka parts are placed reasonably high on the tech tree?

No clue, to be honest. I've only tried them for RO right now, never tried it in stock KSP. (SXT is super useful, but a bit low res)

Edited June 2, 2017 by Temeter

[Temeter]

Turns out it's not enough to rename the .odt file, it's also a non-generic file format that cannot be read my KSP.

Who would've thought. That could have saved me a few hours.

@Bornholio Your configs are pretty good, do you plan to make them a pull request on the RO github?

Edited June 2, 2017 by Temeter

[Bornholio]

15 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Your configs are pretty good, do you plan to make them a pull request on the RO github?
 

Turns out it's not enough to rename the .odt file

Was not, they need a second eye on them.  Earlier i posted NERVA I&II configs with Methane and Water Configs. They also could go.  Feel free if you test any of them.

Notepad++

[Temeter]

6 minutes ago, Bornholio said:

Was not, they need a second eye on them.  Earlier i posted NERVA I&II configs with Methane and Water Configs. They also could go.  Feel free if you test any of them.

Notepad++

Would be a shame not to get them out there, you've put a lot of work into them! Much better than the pitiful stuff I attempted.

If you don't want to bother, I could create a pull request myself on RO github. There, they'll be checked anyway (might have to be split a bit for an official, idk).

I could even combine it with the Kerbal Atomics configs I'm currently making, adding both in a swoop.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Temeter

[Major Gene]

Can someone help me? I installed RO using CKAN with rss and rt when i try to launch a remote probe there is no connection. I used ro for many years so i know the basic requirement need to attach the automatic diapole antenna have power and a probe core ect. I took a 9month break and now am back. Ive been searching for a rt config file for RT with RO but the links are dead. Any ideas?

thanks

gene

[Temeter]

2 minutes ago, Major Gene said:

Can someone help me? I installed RO using CKAN with rss and rt when i try to launch a remote probe there is no connection. I used ro for many years so i know the basic requirement need to attach the automatic diapole antenna have power and a probe core ect. I took a 9month break and now am back. Ive been searching for a rt config file for RT with RO but the links are dead. Any ideas?

thanks

gene

During the launch? If so, did you check the map view? Sometimes you are flying over a region that has no connection because of earths curvature. Try launching a few orbital satellites if so.

[Major Gene]

I am sitting on the canaveral launchpad with no connection cannot launch dispite antenna and power.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Major Gene

[Temeter]

10 minutes ago, Major Gene said:

I am sitting on the canaveral launchpad with no connection cannot launch dispite antenna and power.

That's weird. No clue then.

[Major Gene]

Yea not sure. Is there a special RT config file for RO/RSS?

[Temeter]

1 minute ago, Major Gene said:

Yea not sure. Is there a special RT config file for RO/RSS?

No.