[1.1.2] Realism Overhaul v11.0.0 May 8

[Bender222]

I don't think I've had any

Also: What kind of ascent profile do you use?

I've been reading and i've learned to go straight until you hit ~100 m/s and then pitch over 5 or so degrees and then to just follow the surface velocity vector

However, I always seem to be going too fast too shallow (hitting 1000 m/s at ~20 km). I design all my rockets to have a TWR of about 1.3-4 MAYBE 1.5 if I can't find a more optimized engine. Yet, I always seem to start heating up too much during ascent

Also, does anybody here use mechjeb to launch? If so, what does your ascent profile look like? I've been trying for hours and not making a lot of progress, and yes, I read the page on the RSS wiki about it that is here: https://github.com/NathanKell/RealSolarSystem/wiki/MechJeb-Ascents

Its 2-3 degress initial pitch not 5. i launch manually with mechjeb smart a.s.s.. I don't have the time/patient to figure out a mechjeb profile with a 20 minute launch each attempt. Smart a.s.s. lets you precisely control maneuvers.

[BLUAV8R]

Its 2-3 degress initial pitch not 5. i launch manually with mechjeb smart a.s.s.. I don't have the time/patient to figure out a mechjeb profile with a 20 minute launch each attempt. Smart a.s.s. lets you precisely control maneuvers.

Okay thanks that's what I was gonna start doing

Also, does anybody know where I can find a decent RSS config for BobCat's Soyuz Pack?

[Felger]

For anyone trying to install via CKAN:

I'm currently aware of a few issues when installing via CKAN:

1. TACLS hasn't updated to 0.90, so unselect the TACLS config
   
2. CustomBiomes install instructions have a bug, don't install via CKAN
   
3. RealPlume install instructions have a bug, don't install via CKAN
   

[Bender222]

make that 10 minute launch not 20.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not me - it's a basic math. Once you realize that inclination change vector and circularization vector are perpendicular to each other, you can apply Pythagorean theorem to figure out combined vector, and as we all know hypotenuse is always smaller than the sum of two other sides.

If you won't manage to do it, prioritize changing inclination over getting circularization right - fixing apogee later is much cheaper than fixing inclination after you circularize.

Ive been digging at it for a few weeks (your not the first to say it) but I just dont get the whole triangle. I do know that you save fuel but I don't quite understand exactly how. I understand geometry and math fairly well too, so I thought it would come to me. I guess I just haven't put it together yet. Can you attempt to explain it please?

- - - Updated - - -

Has anyone had a problem with using a collumn of the cubic octagonal struts (usually 4) and attaching 4 goo canisters to it? I have found that you can fit that behind a 1.25m heatshield which is the biggest you get early in rp-0. Anyway upon re-entry the goo canisters slide through the bottom of the heatshield and burn up. this happens with the procedural structural part too (but not the procedural battery or a fuel tank) I have also noticed that after the shoot deploys it stretches the struts apart, creating gaps like they are attached with an invisible rope.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Bender222

[mecki]

My Procedural SRBs have a gimbal. Is that intended and realistic?

I don't know if it's a problem with Procedural Tanks, RO or RSS (will also post this in the corresponding threads) but I'm having huge problems with correct placement of my crafts on the Launch Pad.

My Sounding Rockets Avionics Package falls through the floor and explodes after some bouncing. My Procedural SRBs get placed on the Launch Pad as if they were always 2.5m long which results in them either falling or bouncing out of the floor high up into the air.

I can't really launch without the Launch Stability Enhancer that way.

Is anyone else having huge problems with the Squad LES (Apollo)? My pod starts tumbling extremely when I activate it…

The CoM of my Pod with Heatshield is centered but the thrust of the LES is offset.

Are the Wolf LES still supported by RO?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/37138-0-24-2-Wolf-Aerospace-Perfectrons-L-E-S-Pack-11-08-2014

Are there any other LES pack out there that are supported? Aerojet Kerbodyne?

I don't know how to make this myself but RO configs for the ADEPT by OLDD and the Oblivion Heatshields would be awesome!

Also it is possible to hide parts without RO-config from the VAB instead of adding the note "non-RO"?

Thank you so much for this mod!

Edited January 5, 2015 by mecki

[Starwaster]

My Procedural SRBs have a gimbal. Is that intended and realistic?

I don't know if it's a problem with Procedural Tanks, RO or RSS (will also post this in the corresponding threads) but I'm having huge problems with correct placement of my crafts on the Launch Pad.

My Sounding Rockets Avionics Package falls through the floor and explodes after some bouncing. My Procedural SRBs get placed on the Launch Pad as if they were always 2.5m long which results in them either falling or bouncing out of the floor high up into the air.

I can't really launch without the Launch Stability Enhancer that way.

The space shuttle had gimbaled SRBs.

[Hattivat]

And so does Ariane 5

[mecki]

Sounds great then, thanks for the info!

Any information on my other problems? Anyone else experiencing this?

[mecki]

Things I found out regarding the CKAn install / update:

CKAN tries to install "ProceduralDynamics" while the newest version of this mod is called "ProceduralWings" on CKAN.

It also tries to install "Advanced Jet Engine (AJE) 1.7a" by N/A instead of "Advanced Jet Engine 2.0.2" by camlost.

Also the only recommended ActiveTextureManagement is the Basic one, tot Aggressive.

And you still have to uncheck the TACLS config to make it work…

Edited January 5, 2015 by mecki

[Plumb]

Having a few issues myself installing under CKAN, the main one being that I can't seem to find where I can uncheck the TACLS config from being installed. I can load up the game fine and build a basic rocket, but I get options on parts like tanks to set them to carry food, oxygen etc. This sounds like TAC to me, but I can't find a TAC option anywhere on any part of the CKAN GUI, unless I am being spectacularly blind/stupid (A distinct possibility).

Think I'll give it a couple more weeks then try and get RO working again

[Scarsz]

I've been working on getting FusTek parts in RO. Got all the parts sized and massed correctly (based on the closest reallife ISS modules). Just need to fix one part and get descriptions finished.

[asmi]

Ive been digging at it for a few weeks (your not the first to say it) but I just dont get the whole triangle. I do know that you save fuel but I don't quite understand exactly how. I understand geometry and math fairly well too, so I thought it would come to me. I guess I just haven't put it together yet. Can you attempt to explain it please?

Try watching Scott Manley's "Orbital Mechanics on Paper" videos:

Part 1

Part 2

Second one explains why inclination change is cheaper when velocity is smaller.

For combining burns into a single one:

On this picture X is prograde direction, Y - normal, Z - radial. I is inclination. To change inclination you burn in normal direction (Y), to circularize - in prograde direction(X). Normal and prograde vectors are perpendicular (by definition)

Here dVn is inclination change burn, dVp - circularization burn, dV - combined vector (I've omitted Z coordinate as it's irrelevant in our case). As you can see, dV = sqrt(dVn * dVn + dVp * dVp).

It's not *entirely* true story, but I hope you will get the principle.

Edited January 6, 2015 by asmi

[Bender222]

Try watching Scott Manley's "Orbital Mechanics on Paper" videos:

Part 1

Part 2

Second one explains why inclination change is cheaper when velocity is smaller.

For combining burns into a single one:

http://i.imgur.com/Xs9gp4J.png

On this picture X is prograde direction, Y - normal, Z - radial. I is inclination. To change inclination you burn in normal direction (Y), to circularize - in prograde direction(X). Normal and prograde vectors are perpendicular (by definition)

http://i.imgur.com/SHvzbbK.png

Here dVn is inclination change burn, dVp - circularization burn, dV - combined vector (I've omitted Z coordinate as it's irrelevant in our case). As you can see, dV = sqrt(dVn * dVn + dVp * dVp).

It's not *entirely* true story, but I hope you will get the principle.

Whoa, mind blown. I totally get it now thanks a lot. I knew that it was more efficient but I never quite understood why/how until now.

[asmi]

Whoa, mind blown. I totally get it now thanks a lot. I knew that it was more efficient but I never quite understood why/how until now.

Good. Please keep in mind that I did make significant simplifications in order to better "crystallize" the principle. The most important one being that in reality - while it is true that to change inclination you burn along normal direction, you need to realize that the system of coordinates itself rotates as you burn - because it's defined by three vectors (velocity vector (X), radius-vector from the Earth towards your craft (Z), and normal to the plane defined by X and Z (Y)), and one of these vectors changes its direction (velocity vector, or X on my picture), causing the the normal vector to follow. By the way this is exactly why it's very hard to plot high inclination changes using vanilla KSP's maneuver node - as you drag your normal direction farther, you see that Pe/Ap change as well, and for very high changes there is a point at which further increases into "normal" direction changes Pe/Ap much more than the actual inclination (try getting into low orbit, create a maneuver node and pull normal hard - you'll see what I mean). This happens because KSP assumes you apply the entirety of deltaV instantaneously, while in fact if you'd burn normal you'll have to constantly steer your vehicle as "normal" marker drifts away. This might sound rather confusing (that's why I skipped that part), so I'd suggest you get into stock KSP's sandbox, go to the Minmus orbit (it's useful for these things because orbital velocity is low there and so you can change inclination and even reverse orbital direction for a very modest amount of deltaV) and start burning in normal direction - you will see how normal and prograde vectors' markers shift around (while radial marker stays put because it always points from the center of celestial body to the craft).

Scott Manley in the Part 2 video I've linked gave a correct formula for inclination change calculations using cosine theorem, which is a generalization of the Pythagorean theorem onto arbitrary triangles.

[Bender222]

Good. Please keep in mind that I did make significant simplifications in order to better "crystallize" the principle. The most important one being that in reality - while it is true that to change inclination you burn along normal direction, you need to realize that the system of coordinates itself rotates as you burn - because it's defined by three vectors (velocity vector (X), radius-vector from the Earth towards your craft (Z), and normal to the plane defined by X and Z (Y)), and one of these vectors changes its direction (velocity vector, or X on my picture), causing the the normal vector to follow. By the way this is exactly why it's very hard to plot high inclination changes using vanilla KSP's maneuver node - as you drag your normal direction farther, you see that Pe/Ap change as well, and for very high changes there is a point at which further increases into "normal" direction changes Pe/Ap much more than the actual inclination (try getting into low orbit, create a maneuver node and pull normal hard - you'll see what I mean). This happens because KSP assumes you apply the entirety of deltaV instantaneously, while in fact if you'd burn normal you'll have to constantly steer your vehicle as "normal" marker drifts away. This might sound rather confusing (that's why I skipped that part), so I'd suggest you get into stock KSP's sandbox, go to the Minmus orbit (it's useful for these things because orbital velocity is low there and so you can change inclination and even reverse orbital direction for a very modest amount of deltaV) and start burning in normal direction - you will see how normal and prograde vectors' markers shift around (while radial marker stays put because it always points from the center of celestial body to the craft).

Scott Manley in the Part 2 video I've linked gave a correct formula for inclination change calculations using cosine theorem, which is a generalization of the Pythagorean theorem onto arbitrary triangles.

I do understand that actually, I was just about to add a comment about it but I answered my own question.

The rl 10 engine i get access to in rp-0. Sxt/ or stock im not sure where it comes from has its attachment node a bit too low so that the tankbutt clips into the tank above it. The engines from fasa have very good tank-buttless models but the file structure is way different than other mods, I have to prune the parts out manually.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Bender222

[Seria17hri11er]

Hello all. New to KSP and the realism overhaul. Having some trouble and I figured it would be good to post here since I have the RO mod installed.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why I cannot launch a Stayputnik. I've read the tutorials and it seems really straight forward. Attach the unmanned command pod, add a battery and DP10 and the little non RO command board, fuel, rocket, and go. Not working. Engines will not fire. They fire fine with a manned command pod.

What am I missing? Any help is great appreciated. Just spent like 2 hours building this rocket following Ferram's tutorial only to be unable to launch.

[Hattivat]

Hello! To me your problem sounds most likely to be related to Remote Tech. Do you have it installed and if so, did you also install the config file for Remote Tech to add tracking stations near the RSS launch sites?

( you can find it here https://www.dropbox.com/s/ohqv9r9mwng2500/RemoteTech_RSS_Settings.zip?dl=1 )

Edited January 7, 2015 by Hattivat

[Seria17hri11er]

Hello Hattivat! Thanks for the reply. I'm very confident that is the issue. I don't remember if Remote Tech is installed, and I definitely didn't install a config file to add tracking stations near RSS sites.

Forgot to say I used CKAN to install everything. I'll check on these things when I get home this evening.

Thanks!

[Miximix]

Update 7.0.5

I have not, can you post some screenshots of what you're seeing?

Sorry for a long delay . Here is what i see in my game:

This is Realism Overhaul: http://i.imgur.com/4Itld4e.jpg?1

And this is default KSP: http://i.imgur.com/Mi4a9Mu.jpg?1

You can clearly see, that rescaling haven't gone the way it should have

[Felger]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

If you're trying to install via CKAN, you need to update to the newest version of CKAN, a few versions ago they broke the regex filter that prevents several conflicts in the Realism Overhaul installation, which is now fixed.

So you are all go to install Realism Overhaul in a nice easy fashion once again!

- - - Updated - - -

My Procedural SRBs have a gimbal. Is that intended and realistic?

I don't know if it's a problem with Procedural Tanks, RO or RSS (will also post this in the corresponding threads) but I'm having huge problems with correct placement of my crafts on the Launch Pad.

My Sounding Rockets Avionics Package falls through the floor and explodes after some bouncing. My Procedural SRBs get placed on the Launch Pad as if they were always 2.5m long which results in them either falling or bouncing out of the floor high up into the air.

I can't really launch without the Launch Stability Enhancer that way.

Is anyone else having huge problems with the Squad LES (Apollo)? My pod starts tumbling extremely when I activate it…

The CoM of my Pod with Heatshield is centered but the thrust of the LES is offset.

Are the Wolf LES still supported by RO?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/37138-0-24-2-Wolf-Aerospace-Perfectrons-L-E-S-Pack-11-08-2014

Are there any other LES pack out there that are supported? Aerojet Kerbodyne?

I don't know how to make this myself but RO configs for the ADEPT by OLDD and the Oblivion Heatshields would be awesome!

Also it is possible to hide parts without RO-config from the VAB instead of adding the note "non-RO"?

Thank you so much for this mod!

Many questions!

Sounding Rockets falling through the floor and other launchpad issues

That is very likely an RSS issue, but not entirely un-lifelike. You will pretty much never see a rocket launch without some kind of launch stabilizer, even small model rockets have rails to make sure that first few seconds of acceleration are in a straight line before the fins can keep it going in a straight line.

Launch Escape System questions

IIRC, that issue with the tumbling exists in stock as well. Not sure if there's an easy solution to that, since the thrust transforms for that part are in the model file, which is harder to adjust.

On other mods, FASA has some pretty nice LES which we support. Those other mods you listed may be supported, if they are, it's probably just partial support, but you could try them out to see. (Or reference this list here.)

ADEPT / OLDD heat shields

We don't have support for these planned at the moment, but as always, we never complain if someone wants to make some! We'll even help you make them, just join us in the IRC channel (link in the OP)

Hiding parts without RO configs in the VAB

It's possible, I'll look into creating a RO filter for the VAB with the fancy new editor tools, perhaps we can do it dynamically.

Things I found out regarding the CKAn install / update:

CKAN tries to install "ProceduralDynamics" while the newest version of this mod is called "ProceduralWings" on CKAN.

It also tries to install "Advanced Jet Engine (AJE) 1.7a" by N/A instead of "Advanced Jet Engine 2.0.2" by camlost.

Also the only recommended ActiveTextureManagement is the Basic one, tot Aggressive.

And you still have to uncheck the TACLS config to make it work…

This should be fixed now, there were some bugs with the previous version of CKAN. Also, ProceduralDynamics is the internal name of Procedural Wings, I believe originally it was intended to be a slightly bigger project.

On which note, the B9 procedurals are looking ...., I guess that means I should get around to configuring B9 one of these days...

Having a few issues myself installing under CKAN, the main one being that I can't seem to find where I can uncheck the TACLS config from being installed. I can load up the game fine and build a basic rocket, but I get options on parts like tanks to set them to carry food, oxygen etc. This sounds like TAC to me, but I can't find a TAC option anywhere on any part of the CKAN GUI, unless I am being spectacularly blind/stupid (A distinct possibility).

Think I'll give it a couple more weeks then try and get RO working again

That's correct, and if you're still willing to give it a shot, all those issues have been resolved with the newest version of CKAN.

TACLS hasn't yet updated to 0.90 on CKAN, so that's probably why you're not seeing it.

I've been working on getting FusTek parts in RO. Got all the parts sized and massed correctly (based on the closest reallife ISS modules). Just need to fix one part and get descriptions finished.

http://puu.sh/e6XnT/9ee0126c69.jpg

Awesome, we'll take 'em as you got 'em! Jump yourself on the IRC channel and we'll walk you through how to submit them.

WEBCHAT LINK HERE

Sorry for a long delay . Here is what i see in my game:

This is Realism Overhaul: http://i.imgur.com/4Itld4e.jpg?1

And this is default KSP: http://i.imgur.com/Mi4a9Mu.jpg?1

You can clearly see, that rescaling haven't gone the way it should have

Awww dang, I thought I had squashed all those FASA rescaling bugs. Guess I need to do another pass.

[Starwaster]

Launch Escape System questions

IIRC, that issue with the tumbling exists in stock as well. Not sure if there's an easy solution to that, since the thrust transforms for that part are in the model file, which is harder to adjust.

On other mods, FASA has some pretty nice LES which we support. Those other mods you listed may be supported, if they are, it's probably just partial support, but you could try them out to see. (Or reference this list here.)

On the subject of LES, when I use a tower that has a steering rocket that sends it tumbling, I offset the offset thrust with the small KWR ullage rocket. Start with its nozzle pointing down then angle the top in by two key taps. Works very nicely

(as an aside, every LES that I've tried that had a 'steering jet' was doing it wrong. If they put a steering rocket transform in then it has just as much thrust as the other transforms on the part)

Edited January 8, 2015 by Starwaster

[Miximix]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Awww dang, I thought I had squashed all those FASA rescaling bugs. Guess I need to do another pass.

FASA rescaling bugs? I thought the problem was in OLDD mod

[itsthatguy]

Ok, so I've decided to download the OLDD Apollo mod, (despite it not being updated) and discovered that:

a. The save file that comes with the mod is broken, it creates a bug when you try to edit the ship in the VAB

b. All the parts still work when you assemble the ship manually, however the tanks on the S-II and S-IV are not cryogenic for some reason, and boil off is a large problem.

I have already left a post on that thread looking for some help, however if someone could change the configs to make them the correct tank type without affecting other stats and post them here, that would be super cool. (Cuz I have no experience with modding at all, and I can't do it myself )

[Starwaster]

Ok, so I've decided to download the OLDD Apollo mod, (despite it not being updated) and discovered that:

b. All the parts still work when you assemble the ship manually, however the tanks on the S-II and S-IV are not cryogenic for some reason, and boil off is a large problem.

Boil off was a problem for the real life Saturn as well

Even with the highly efficient insulation finally developed for the S-IV and S-IVB, an LH₂ tank topped off at 100 percent capacity before launch needed constant replenishment, since the boil-off required compensation at rates up to 1100 liters (300 gallons) per minute.

Source: http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/ch6.htm

that's probably more than you'll even see in Real Fuels.....

[Seria17hri11er]

Hey Hattivat,

That fixed it. Needed the Remote Tech config file install. Thank you.

So guys/gals does this look right? I've spent like 8 hours trying to get realism overhaul and all sorts of stuff working and trying to build a rocket following Ferrams tutorial https://github.com/NathanKell/RealSolarSystem/wiki/Ferram%27s-Launch-Vehicle-Tutorial

The KER and MechJeb are confusing the heck out of me. When I put the booster separation into stage two by themselves it separates the TWR and Delta Vs. Is that right? Do I just need to add them together? Or should I put the radial separators in stage 1 until calculations/modifications are complete?

Separators in proper spot:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6_6eI1DQhGkTkM0Ty1LaFdxUVU/view?usp=sharing

Separators in Stage 1:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6_6eI1DQhGkUlpkNzV3b2hBZHc/view?usp=sharing

Edited January 10, 2015 by Seria17hri11er
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