[1.12.x] Community Tech Tree (August 13)

[RoverDude]

I say that despite the tool being unnecessary, the CTT idea is still an extremely valid one (i.e. no point in having 20 nodes for nuclear reactors when, between all of the mods that use them, we can sort that out in a handful).

I also agree with the original mandate of not messing with the stock tree, because once you go down that route, we'll never get out of the tar pit.

I do agree with the original mandate of using CTT to provide a framework of additional nodes for us all to work with. That worked out well, and made it a pretty cut and dry mandate with minimal contention.

Nertea, let me know what you want to do, but I for one will pretty much follow your lead and adjust my stuff to accommodate the modified structure.

Side note - hopefully we can add in our own icons now too

[Nertea]

I am going to make a new Gliffy with the new 1.0 tree so we can work from there. Drop your requests in please, I have generally:

• More fusion nodes for KSPI (FreeThinker's reqest)
  
• More actuator nodes for IR (IR request)
  
• Reworking the hab/capsule branch (my request)
  
• Tweaking the ISRU section to flow logically from ISRU parts in stock
  

I have limited time these next few days but I will try to get this through ASAP.

- edit:

Would anyone care to investigate new icons? I'd love that (and would make some for sure).

[Yemo]

In my opinion, this is an opportunity for the CTT project to change into something more than before.

I propose a 2 part strategy, based on the stock tech tree.

Part 1: Tech Node naming convention/basis

a) Define the IDs of tech nodes which are useful in addition to the new stock tree nodes.

Those could be the ones used in the 0.90 CTT.

Make those node names public domain, thus usable by all the other tech trees, eg Adios, Road to Kosmos, KSAEA and Mod Oriented Tech Tree.

That would provide a community naming basis not only for part mods, but also for tech tree mods. If those tech tree mods need additional nodes they can just add them, but there would be a common basis, thus increasing compatibility between tech trees with each other and tech trees with part mods.

For example tech trees starting with probes could just move the unmanned probes to an earlier position, other trees would put aero nodes earlier.

Part 2: CTT itself

a) A tech tree like the old CTT, based around the new stock tech tree, with the public domain techs placed around it, like before.

This would act as the basis for part mods, espcially those which do not quite fit into the stock tree, like NearFuture, KSPI extended, colonization.

Now if other tech trees want to support those special mods, they just add the public domain nodes where they would fit for them.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Yemo

[ZodiusInfuser]

• More actuator nodes for IR (IR request)
  

Thanks for remembering . The new tech tree is better than before in the actuator area, but its still odd that actuators doesn't join back up with anything, nor have basic/advanced/experimental variants. I guess because the only actuator squad has is The Claw.

[Yemo]

Thanks for remembering . The new tech tree is better than before in the actuator area, but its still odd that actuators doesn't join back up with anything, nor have basic/advanced/experimental variants. I guess because the only actuator squad has is The Claw.

Yes, the new tree seems to be more specialized for stock and less open to extensions to the end. Command capsules for example is a dead end now, with no room to fit something like the Taurus HCV.

[anonish]

>Side note - hopefully we can add in our own icons now too

Yes, yes you can.

Just dropping by to say I don't plan to be maintaining TechManager any more, as there is really no point to it. I do agree it would be nice to have some way of reloading the tree without reloading the game.. in fact can't you do that in the debug menu? Reload config files? Oh wow, in fact there is a new RnD specific tab to the debug menu..

- - - Updated - - -

Well, that debug menu looks like its missing some parts to make it work properly. Selecting 'Node' for example doesn't show anything. Although it does allow you to change things like description and title.

So far the best way I see to make changs is just to exit the R&D building, alt-tab to notepad, use notepad to change the file and save, alt-tab back to ksp, then go back into the R&D building.

[FreeThinker]

Yes, the new tree seems to be more specialized for stock and less open to extensions to the end. Command capsules for example is a dead end now, with no room to fit something like the Taurus HCV.

From a gamers perspective, I realy hate those dead ends unless it contains something that you really can't go without. Preferably, the Dead ends become linked with the main tree again allowing options

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Nertea]

Here's what I've got. http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/7941469

[ZodiusInfuser]

I can't see any diagram

Same.

[ModZero]

I can't see any diagram

Well, that's apparently what he has.

/me grabs his coat.

[FreeThinker]

Alright, I see something now, it takes a while apperently to load the screen.

Some observations:

- I like the split in Exotic Fusion Reactions and Antimatter power, as it allow a good technode to put AIM reactors in.

- I like the Experimental Airscaft Engines , perfect for the Hybrid Thermal Engine

- Nuclear Support systems was removed, mistake? I don't need it but it might be usefull for NFT-E

Some suggestions:

- Make Fusion Propulsion require both Experimental Rocketry, High Efficency Nuclear Propulsion as the Vista Engine is both very large, powerfull, expirimental , efficent, fusion propulsion engine.

- Add a tier 11 Technode called Magnetic storage, which requires specialised fuel storage. As the name sais, it allows resource like Antimatter, Atomic Hydrogen to be stored.

- Link High Energy Science up with up Ultra High Energy Science (like it original does) and Put the 4 preceding technodes on the same Y-axis as Survivability.

- Add a tier 11 technode called Artifical Inteligence which require large probes and Robottics which would allow self concious cores

- Put "Cutting edge solar technology" in tier 11 after Advanced PV Matterials, I never understood why they split

- Add new tier 11 node High Efficency Heat Management, requires Advanced Heat management

- Move Advanced Heat Management to tier 8, which allows a more meaningfull progression from heat managing systems

- Orbital Megastructure could be accesable by either Exotic Alloys (nano stuctures) or Orbital assembly

- Orbital Assembly should also require Expirimental Actuators

Edited April 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[billkerbinsky]

I can't see any diagram

Takes a little while for the diagram to render - maybe 10 seconds? Give it some time... (in any event, it's faster than KSP loading..)

[ZodiusInfuser]

I see it now. Its nice that Actuators is no longer trapped in as it was before

Would it be possible to have Experimental Actuators also require composites? For what I plan to put there it seems an advancement in materials needs to accompany it.

Edit: Also could Experimental Actuators link up with Orbital Assembly? I have long term plans to do larger robotic parts, and it seems like linking to that existing path would be better than having my own of Heavy Actuators etc. Of course that depends on what the purpose or Orbital Assembly and Orbital Megastructures is, but I would think spinning habitats like in the IR release video would qualify.

Edited April 28, 2015 by ZodiusInfuser

[RoverDude]

I'll take a peek as well. It's nice not having the constraints we had last time

Thanks for keeping this rolling, Nertea!

[Streetwind]

Yes, the new tree seems to be more specialized for stock and less open to extensions to the end. Command capsules for example is a dead end now, with no room to fit something like the Taurus HCV.

From a gamers perspective, I realy hate those dead ends unless it contains something that you really can't go without. Preferably, the Dead ends become linked with the main tree again allowing options

Well, even with CTT maintaining the stance of not changing the stock tree, there shouldn't be a big problem in for example just moving the locatiosn of the nodes. This creates additional space between them so any potentially interesting dead ends can be picked up on even if there's no room in the stock layout.

I reckon that the one thing that's a step back compared to TechManager is the lack of the HideIfPointless flag. I mean, unless that behavior is implicitly present in all nodes now.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I reckon that the one thing that's a step back compared to TechManager is the lack of the HideIfPointless flag. I mean, unless that behavior is implicitly present in all nodes now.

There is a "hideEmpty" flag in all of the nodes in TechTree.cfg.

[spacedoctor42]

Does this work with 1.0?

I suppose I could try it and find out couldn't I...

[Streetwind]

There is a "hideEmpty" flag in all of the nodes in TechTree.cfg.

That has always been present in the stock implementation and is not the same as TechManager's hideIfPointless.

Example Situation:

- A tech tree supports multiple mods. Some mods add parts into early nodes, some mods add parts into lategame nodes.

- A player chooses to install only the mods that add parts into lategame nodes. This causes some earlygame nodes to be empty.

- If you set all nodes to hideEmpty=true, then the later nodes that actually have parts in them become inaccessible because the empty early nodes hide themselves.

- If you set all nodes to hideEmpty=false, then all empty nodes always remain visible and researchable, even if they do not lead to any later nodes with parts in them.

- You cannot predict which mods the user chooses to install, thus you cannot predict which nodes you can hide and which you mustn't hide.

The hideIfPointless flag actually told a node to hide itself only if it is empty and all nodes that come after it are also empty. This handily avoids the situation described above, and is in fact the very reason this flag was created.

I mean, showing all empty nodes permanently is less of an issue now than it used to be, because now you can actually look at all the nodes that come after it without having to research it. That means a player who's using a modded tech tree for the first time isn't completely and utterly blind anymore when he encounters an empty node because he chose not to install a certain mod. But it's still inelegant and leads to unnecessary clutter.

The best thing we can hope for is that the stock hideEmpty flag actually learned the behavior that hideIfPointless implemented - but the chance for that to have happened is probably not large.

Does this work with 1.0?

I suppose I could try it and find out couldn't I...

It does not, and is currently being reworked.

You can quickly find out about that by reading the last 1-2 pages in this thread

Edited April 28, 2015 by Streetwind

[Serino]

For the people asking for experimental actuators to be required for orbital construction that then forces everyone with IR to get it before they can use any of the orbital construction stuff or if they don't have IR it would force them to research an empty node both of those options are bad cause it would very restrictive.

Edit: Will there be a way to get to the ultra high energy physics if we don't have anything that requires anitmatter? None of the mods I use have anti-matter reactors or anything like that, unless Nertea plans to add some in his mods, but I do use Rover's warpdrive.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Serino

[smjjames]

Hopefully this gets updated soon, I don't like how they split the engines and fuel tanks into two separate branches.

[FreeThinker]

Hopefully this gets updated soon, I don't like how they split the engines and fuel tanks into two separate branches.

No it's one of the best changes. Before rocketry was the most important tech because it contained both, now you will have to chose between more advanced tanks or more advanced rockets. Note that more advanced tanks, doesn't only mean, bigger tanks, it can also mean smarter tanks, like Switchable Fuel tank system, or capable at holding fuel at crygenic temperatures with lower power requirements.

Edited April 29, 2015 by FreeThinker

[ZodiusInfuser]

For the people asking for experimental actuators to be required for orbital construction that then forces everyone with IR to get it before they can use any of the orbital construction stuff or if they don't have IR it would force them to research an empty node both of those options are bad cause it would very restrictive.

You're misinterpreting what I said. I said that experimental actuators should link up with Orbital Assembly, meaning that to unlock it either Experimental Actuators OR Meta-Materials is required, not both. I had already considered it being required but discounted it for the very reasons you listed.

[Nertea]

Alright, I see something now, it takes a while apperently to load the screen.

Some observations:

- Nuclear Support systems was removed, mistake? I don't need it but it might be usefull for NFT-E

The only thing that was ever there before was some radiators, which I moved to the thermal management nodes.

- Make Fusion Propulsion require both Experimental Rocketry and High Efficency Nuclear Propulsion, as the Vista Engine is both very large, powerfull, expirimental , efficent, nuclear propulsion engine

Sure.

- Add a tier 11 Technode called Magnetic storage, which requires specialised fuel storage. As the name sais, it allows resource like Antimatter, Atomic Hydrogen to be stored.

Done, added as Exotic Fuel Storage

- Link High Energy Science up with up Ultra High Energy Science (like it original does) and Put the 4 preceding technodes on the same Y-axis as Survivability.

Don't worry about the locations, I'll do that when I actually ingame it.

- Add a tier 11 technode called Artifical Inteligence which require large probes and Robottics which would allow self concious cores

Sure.

- Put "Cutting edge solar technology" in tier 11 after Advanced PV Matterials, I never understood why they split

Because I'm the one who cares about those and I like it that way . So nah.

- Add new tier 11 node High Efficency Heat Management, requires Advanced Heat management

Ok.

- Move Advanced Heat Management to tier 8, which allows a more meaningfull progression from heat managing systems

Ok.

- Orbital Megastructure requires both Exotic Alloys (nano stuctures) and Orbital assembly & - Orbital Assembly should also require Expirimental Actuators

I don't like to do full dependencies on other mod nodes like that, I can do a soft dependency though.

I see it now. Its nice that Actuators is no longer trapped in as it was before

Would it be possible to have Experimental Actuators also require composites? For what I plan to put there it seems an advancement in materials needs to accompany it.

Edit: Also could Experimental Actuators link up with Orbital Assembly? I have long term plans to do larger robotic parts, and it seems like linking to that existing path would be better than having my own of Heavy Actuators etc. Of course that depends on what the purpose or Orbital Assembly and Orbital Megastructures is, but I would think spinning habitats like in the IR release video would qualify.

Generally these nodes are for things like... 5m structural parts. The name isn't great, so I'm open to suggestions.

I added all these in, plus a new node for simpler command pods.

[FreeThinker]

Alright, looking good. One more thing.

- Antimatter Reactors requires some very advanced exotic materials to implement, therefore Antimatter reactor should require both Advanced Fusion Reactors and Exotic Alloys to realize.

[ZodiusInfuser]

- Orbital Megastructure requires both Exotic Alloys (nano stuctures) and Orbital assembly should also require Experimental Actuators

I don't like to do full dependencies on other mod nodes like that, I can do a soft dependency though.

A soft dependency on Experimental Actuators was what I was meaning. Couldn't think of the right wording to describe it.

Edit: Also could Experimental Actuators link up with Orbital Assembly? I have long term plans to do larger robotic parts, and it seems like linking to that existing path would be better than having my own of Heavy Actuators etc. Of course that depends on what the purpose or Orbital Assembly and Orbital Megastructures is, but I would think spinning habitats like in the IR release video would qualify.

Generally these nodes are for things like... 5m structural parts. The name isn't great, so I'm open to suggestions.

Since actuator parts are heavily intertwined with structural parts I think joining Exp Actuators with Orbital Assembly is fine. I imagine OA as a node for letting you build things like dry-docks, so having gantry parts in there could be suitable. As for the name the only thing that I'm not sure of is whether Orbital should be mentioned or not.

I have a two comments on the other additions to the tree:

• Exotic Fuel Storage doesn't link to anything
  
• Artificial Intelligence coming off from Robotics seems weird to me, as robotics as a research field includes AI. Maybe the name Mechatronics would be more appropriate? It depends what peoples assumption of Robotics is, as most people do just think of the hardware side of it.