[1.4] SpaceY Heavy-Lifter Parts Pack v1.17.1 (2018-04-02)

[NecroBones]

Pushed the update:

0.17 (2015-06-18) - Thermal help, plus SRBs.
 - Increased "thermal mass" multiplier and heat conductivity for thrust plates.
 - Increased "thermal mass" multiplier for structural/conical size adapters.
 - Increased heat tolerance for thrust plates and size adapters.
 - Shortened SRB names to "SRB" instead of "Solid Rocket Booster" to save space in the UI.
 - Added a new (21m) long 1.875m SRB.
 - Added a new (9m) long 0.625m SRB.

Have Solid Rocket Boosters gone too far?

93% of all SpaceY players get this question wrong!

Excellent parts, excellent pack.

lol, thanks!

[cy-one]

While I still have troubles figuring out when to use SRBs, I still love your pack, NecroBones.

It has driven both KW Rocketry and NovaPunch off the field

[PickledTripod]

That's a pretty cool update! Thanks a lot!

[Harry Rhodan]

  - Added a new (9m) long 0.625m SRB.

Right when I needed them. Thank you.

[NecroBones]

While I still have troubles figuring out when to use SRBs, I still love your pack, NecroBones.

It has driven both KW Rocketry and NovaPunch off the field

That's a pretty cool update! Thanks a lot!

Right when I needed them. Thank you.

Awesome, glad you're all enjoying it!

[billkerbinsky]

Tried an Ares-I-ish configuration (with a single SRB as the first stage under upper stages) with the new 1.875m SRB and no launch clamps, and the craft just fell through the pad. I don't see this with the other large SRB's.

While this is both more realistic (nozzles can't support the weight of a rocket, real pads don't have a grating like the KSP pad), and more Kerbal (rocket go BOOM!) it's not consistent with the rest of the game.

Reduced test case:

Build a 2-part rocket and send it to the launch pad. then wait.

Mk1 command pod atop SpaceY S109 SRB: sits on pad (expected behavior)

MK1 command pod atop SpaceY S115 SRB: sits on pad (expected behavior)

Mk1 command pod atop SpaceY S121 SRB: falls through pad once physics kicks in, explodes once it gets about halfway down.

[NecroBones]

Tried an Ares-I-ish configuration (with a single SRB as the first stage under upper stages) with the new 1.875m SRB and no launch clamps, and the craft just fell through the pad. I don't see this with the other large SRB's.

While this is both more realistic (nozzles can't support the weight of a rocket, real pads don't have a grating like the KSP pad), and more Kerbal (rocket go BOOM!) it's not consistent with the rest of the game.

Reduced test case:

Build a 2-part rocket and send it to the launch pad. then wait.

Mk1 command pod atop SpaceY S109 SRB: sits on pad (expected behavior)

MK1 command pod atop SpaceY S115 SRB: sits on pad (expected behavior)

Mk1 command pod atop SpaceY S121 SRB: falls through pad once physics kicks in, explodes once it gets about halfway down.

Awesome, thanks for the bug report. I found the problem. Apparently I forgot to flag the colliders as "convex".

I pushed out a hotfix:

0.17.1 (2015-06-21) - SRB hotfix
 - Corrected a problem with colliders on the new 21m long 1.875m SRB (should no longer fall through the pad).

[billkerbinsky]

Awesome, thanks for the bug report. I found the problem. Apparently I forgot to flag the colliders as "convex".

I pushed out a hotfix:

0.17.1 (2015-06-21) - SRB hotfix
 - Corrected a problem with colliders on the new 21m long 1.875m SRB (should no longer fall through the pad).

I'm happy to confirm that 0.17.1 fixes it for me. Thanks!

[NecroBones]

I'm happy to confirm that 0.17.1 fixes it for me. Thanks!

Awesome

[frencrs]

Much love for SpaceY providing the lifting portion of one of my best performing rockets!

Boosters and first two stages parachute down after cut off for retrieval. Third stage burns into a free return trajectory around the Mun, it's equipped with it's own heat shield and chutes to reenter back on Kerbin. 94% of vehicle cost returned. 0% of fuel cost returned. Payload to Mun: 140t

Edited June 22, 2015 by frencrs

[NecroBones]

Much love for SpaceY providing the lifting portion of one of my best performing rockets!

Boosters and first two stages parachute down after cut off for retrieval. Third stage burns into a free return trajectory around the Mun, it's equipped with it's own heat shield and chutes to reenter back on Kerbin. 94% of vehicle cost returned. 0% of fuel cost returned. Payload to Mun: 140t

http://i.imgur.com/qe6tFL6.png

http://i.imgur.com/snuFXCk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BvMYzbR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zCoAbrz.jpg

Nice!! Big, elegant, and effective. I like it!

[NecroBones]

Posted update. I wouldn't be surprised if more stuff turns up, but I wanted to get some of the basic rebalancing adjustments in:

0.17.2 (2015-06-22) - KSP 1.0.3 balance update.
 - Updated thermal and ablator properties of heat shield, and removed transparency.
 - Updated thermal settings on many parts, for stock balance, including nose cones, fairings, SRBs, Engines, etc.
 - Fairing mass & thermal values updated.
 - SRB ISPs rebalanced, to be equal to some of the better performing stock SRBs.
 - Adjusted SRB propellant capacities and costs.

[cipherpunks]

A2-1X Interstage Adapter isn't working for me - shroud won't appear; its little brother A2-1 works good.

A3-1-V and A3-I-VII Interstage Thrust Plates aren't working, too, while the rest works.

Edit: and how do I land with SpaceY R7 "Ratite" Ultra Heavy Lift Engine Cluster? No way to disable most engines, and no hidden node in the middle to stick landing legs to... I mean I can stick them radially, but part count... And SpaceX rocket can switch off all the engines except central one, and land on it.

Edited June 25, 2015 by cipherpunks

[NecroBones]

A2-1X Interstage Adapter isn't working for me - shroud won't appear; its little brother A2-1 works good.

A3-1-V and A3-I-VII Interstage Thrust Plates aren't working, too, while the rest works.

Edit: and how do I land with SpaceY R7 "Ratite" Ultra Heavy Lift Engine Cluster? No way to disable most engines, and no hidden node in the middle to stick landing legs to... I mean I can stick them radially, but part count... And SpaceX rocket can switch off all the engines except central one, and land on it.

Odd, it works on my side. (screenshot below). They both (A2-1X and A2-1) use the same model, but call different shroud meshes based on which attachment node is used. The only thing I can think, is maybe another mod is interfering with the ability to pull up more than one shroud on the mesh? Do the "adaptive" adapters work, such as the A5-123 or the A3-12, with all of their node options?

The ones you mention have that all in common- they use one shroud or another out of the same models.

Well, the R7 really isn't meant as a landing engine, which is why it doesn't have those things. The M9 has the mode switching. If there's enough interest, I could revisit it and see about getting more attachment-capable collider, and/or mode switching. But at the moment, it's meant to be a somewhat impractical engine.

Edited June 25, 2015 by NecroBones

[cipherpunks]

Yes, "adaptive" adapters (omg short SMS messages) work. Maybe TweakableEverything is interfering?... Will test without it; but in ModuleManager.ConfigCache those parts look almost identical.

Edit: Yep, TweakableEverything is interfering indeed it seems. Will notify todacius.

Edit 2: ouch, it turned out that only some nodes work on "adaptive" adapters, namely top-most, and maybe one node more, but not others.

Edited June 25, 2015 by cipherpunks
correction

[Murdabenne]

Much love for SpaceY providing the lifting portion of one of my best performing rockets!

Boosters and first two stages parachute down after cut off for retrieval. Third stage burns into a free return trajectory around the Mun, it's equipped with it's own heat shield and chutes to reenter back on Kerbin. 94% of vehicle cost returned. 0% of fuel cost returned. Payload to Mun: 140t

http://i.imgur.com/qe6tFL6.png

http://i.imgur.com/snuFXCk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BvMYzbR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zCoAbrz.jpg

Verrrry nice, craft file pls? And how do you work the recoverable boosters?

[NecroBones]

Yes, "adaptive" adapters (omg short SMS messages) work. Maybe TweakableEverything is interfering?... Will test without it; but in ModuleManager.ConfigCache those parts look almost identical.

Edit: Yep, TweakableEverything is interfering indeed it seems. Will notify todacius.

Edit 2: ouch, it turned out that only some nodes work on "adaptive" adapters, namely top-most, and maybe one node more, but not others.

Yeah, I figured it had to be something like that. SpaceY is probably the first parts pack to take advantage of that capability in the stock game, so some plugins may not be aware of it.

[toadicus]

cipherpunks, NecroBones, I'm pretty sure I know specifically why TweakableEngineFairings is stepping on certain shrouds for certain parts; it's definitely something I can fix. But probably not until the weekend.

For the curious, I watch the named "bottomNode" to see if there's a part on it to help know whether or not there should be a shroud. But, I just grab the first bottomNodeName I see (or maybe the last; I forget specifically), rather than handling it separately per module. Shouldn't be too hard to fix, just need to get a chance to code.

[ZentroCatson]

Man, your pack is one of the best stockalike lifter parts pack out there! These parts found big use in my career safe, especially the 0.625m boosters. One thing that really annoys me about the Moa engine is the engine fairing. The 2.5m Moa is very useful for large 2.5m upper stages that need to carry a lot of mass. Now, the problem: the engine fairing only can be either 2.5m to 3.75m or 3.75m to 5m. As I said, it's really useful for 2.5m rockets, so that fairing just makes me sad because I can't put this awesome engine on my heavy-lift 2.5m Mun/Minmus transfer stage . Please add a node for a 2.5m fairing to the Moa!

[NecroBones]

cipherpunks, NecroBones, I'm pretty sure I know specifically why TweakableEngineFairings is stepping on certain shrouds for certain parts; it's definitely something I can fix. But probably not until the weekend.

For the curious, I watch the named "bottomNode" to see if there's a part on it to help know whether or not there should be a shroud. But, I just grab the first bottomNodeName I see (or maybe the last; I forget specifically), rather than handling it separately per module. Shouldn't be too hard to fix, just need to get a chance to code.

Awesome! Thanks for taking a look at it.

Man, your pack is one of the best stockalike lifter parts pack out there! These parts found big use in my career safe, especially the 0.625m boosters. One thing that really annoys me about the Moa engine is the engine fairing. The 2.5m Moa is very useful for large 2.5m upper stages that need to carry a lot of mass. Now, the problem: the engine fairing only can be either 2.5m to 3.75m or 3.75m to 5m. As I said, it's really useful for 2.5m rockets, so that fairing just makes me sad because I can't put this awesome engine on my heavy-lift 2.5m Mun/Minmus transfer stage . Please add a node for a 2.5m fairing to the Moa!

Glad you like it! Yeah, I do get requests for this occasionally. At the time, with our discussions here in the thread, it seemed like a good idea to save you from using adapters with that engine, while making it part of the "cost" of using it to require a stack size change. But it's the only engine that works that way and it does limit its uses. I'll have to see whether it's better to simply add a node, or split it out as a variant. Now that stock KSP has had their own case of "add a node, break saves!" and a fix in 1.0.4, it might be possible to add nodes without breaking saves now. That was one of the main reasons I didn't look into it before.

[ZentroCatson]

Come on, Necrobones! That engine doesn't deserve to have this kind of disadvantage. It doesn't have the same Isp as the skipper, but can carry more mass. Maybe make it cost about 6000 funds, if you want a fair disadvantage?

[NecroBones]

Come on, Necrobones! That engine doesn't deserve to have this kind of disadvantage. It doesn't have the same Isp as the skipper, but can carry more mass. Maybe make it cost about 6000 funds, if you want a fair disadvantage?

Don't worry, that was me agreeing with you. I just did a quick test, and it does look like I can add a node without breaking saves anymore. I should be able add a length right in between the existing ones.

[Wolf Baginski]

While I still have troubles figuring out when to use SRBs, I still love your pack, NecroBones.

It has driven both KW Rocketry and NovaPunch off the field

One technique which emerges with MechJeb2 ascent guidance is to set a reasonable acceleration limit in MechJeb2, a little bit more than the SRBs can provide, and then the central liquid-fuel booster runs at a low throttle in the thicker atmosphere, where it has a low Isp. When the SRBs run empty and are staged, the central booster can have most of its fuel left and runs with better Isp. Also the drag is less in the thinner air.

It can be done manually. Start at full throttle until at over 200 m/s and then throttle back to keep the indicator at the top of the green section. The SRB burn-out is somewhere around 8km altitude, and you will need to increase throttle to near the maximum. The green segment tops out at 20m/s/s which can be marginal for heating if sustained. I have had second-stage boosters overheat and explode if they get too fast too soon.

Trans-sonic drag at lower altitudes is still a problem. On the other hand,a higher ascent speed reduces the time fuel has to be burnt against gravity and reduces the time with high-density air.

Speed of sound with Kerbin altitude (approximate).

Altitude Speed

(km) (m/s)

1 334

2 329

3 324

4 319

5 314

6 309

7 304

8 298

9 295

Not everything goes supersonic at the same time, airflow over some parts of a plane are faster than over others, so you'd need a margin to avoid the trans-sonic drag. If you accelerated to 300 m/s and allowed the speed to even drop slightly you would minimise the time in the denser atmosphere, and a 30-second SRB burn does most of it.

Concorde went supersonic at about 25000 feet, slightly over 6km in Kerbin terms, so 300 m/s isn't far off. Increase the throttle to get through the trans-sonic region. The speed of sound is computed as constant from 9km to 16km. After that, Kerbin's atmosphere is rather tenuous, but that is where you get lot of pretty red flames on re-entry. Mach 3 and below are fairly safe.

Concorde's thermal limit was Mach 2.2 at 60000 feet, which is just below 16km on Kerbin. Call it 650m/s. The flight profile used a slow climb as fuel was burned. Anything faster and they would have had to have used exotic alloys for the structure.

If you check the Wiki, you can find how to convert Kerbin altitude to the equivalent in the US Standard Atmosphere, which let me calculate the speed of sound.

As for Shuttle SRBs, the separation was at about 45km, which would be somewhere around 35km for Kerbin. Burn time was about 110 seconds.

Anyway, I hope that gives you some ideas for using SRBs.

[damerell]

One technique which emerges with MechJeb2 ascent guidance is to set a reasonable acceleration limit in MechJeb2, a little bit more than the SRBs can provide, and then the central liquid-fuel booster runs at a low throttle in the thicker atmosphere, where it has a low Isp. When the SRBs run empty and are staged, the central booster can have most of its fuel left and runs with better Isp. Also the drag is less in the thinner air.

Absent ascent guidance (I use MechJeb, sure, just not that) I've hit on something similar. Throttle down the SRBs for too low a takeoff TWR, but take off with the LFO throttle open - having put LFO nosecones with fuel lines on the SRBs. When they run dry, close the throttle until the SRBs are done.

[NecroBones]

Absent ascent guidance (I use MechJeb, sure, just not that) I've hit on something similar. Throttle down the SRBs for too low a takeoff TWR, but take off with the LFO throttle open - having put LFO nosecones with fuel lines on the SRBs. When they run dry, close the throttle until the SRBs are done.

Huh, that's a neat solution. That way you get a set of drop-tanks out of it, plus as those tanks+SRBs drain out, the TWR will have gone up due to reduced mass. That's a cool way to control your acceleration.