New Mk3 Parts Partially Unveiled

[sal_vager]

I wouldn't take "feature complete" or "scope complete" to be set in stone guys, when the devs have an idea they really like they go with it

[razark]

Why even bother releasing Mk3 parts in 0.90 at all then? It's just content, after all. Same with the extra biomes and all other stuff that's just content. Whether Mk3 parts should be in 0.90 is a different discussion - the fact is that they are, but it's incomplete. That just doesn't make sense to me. EDIT: Also, I am not telling them to rush. Pretty much the opposite, actually - I'm saying 'take your time, delay the release if you need to because at the moment, you're going to include an incomplete set'.

They can release what they have deemed ready for release, and you get to play with it. It's not as though they are charging you for each release. If such were the case, you might have a point.

Why should they hold back on releasing what they already have to include stuff they don't have yet? How long a delay is reasonable? If they delayed 0.90 for a week to add cargo bays, would it be worth it? Would it be worth it if they delayed release by a month?

How do you determine how much content is needed for a "full" release? Is it "all content or none" per category? What if they released biomes for Duna and Eve, and said we're still working on the Jool system? Would that be so horrible that you get some of what's been worked on rather than everything? If it's a matter of not releasing before things are ready, why bother releasing anything before 1.0?

Great, so why even have QA and Experimentals then.. sure, I'll do their job, except for free (in fact, I've even paid to do it), and the fix won't come for another 3 months or so. Gotcha.

It was made perfectly clear when you purchased the game that it was a work in progress, that would be in constant development, and that it may be released with incomplete/non-working features, and that there was no schedule for any specific features or content. The reason it goes through the testing it does is that people get their panties in a wad if something makes it out the door in an unfinished state.

Edit:

Nope. Scope-complete. Means that everything's there, just not fully.

Feature-complete is when everything is ironed out and polished.

Scope. Thank you, I misspoke. I don't think it really affects my point, though.

I wouldn't take "feature complete" or "scope complete" to be set in stone guys...

I fully understand that. It still makes sense for them to get the mechanics in before they polish the details. It means they have less to bend out of shape to fit new stuff in if they do think of something to add.

Edited November 28, 2014 by razark

[Red Iron Crown]

Great, so why even have QA and Experimentals then.. sure, I'll do their job, except for free (in fact, I've even paid to do it), and the fix won't come for another 3 months or so. Gotcha.

Just about all members of the QA and experimentals teams are volunteers, it's not a "job" but something they do for free. The reason there are those teams in the first place is to restrict early testing to people who can produce thorough, non-repetitive bug reports. Not sure if you were around before your join date here, but the community reaction to the initial 0.14 release pretty much guaranteed that future releases would be vetted by a testing group before public release. It's a necessity, unfortunately.

[cantab]

Why even bother releasing Mk3 parts in 0.90 at all then?

Because Porkjet could work on them, and would otherwise be unoccupied (at least in terms of stuff for the stock game).

[BudgetHedgehog]

They can release what they have deemed ready for release, and you get to play with it.

I understand that, but as I said, what they're releasing is incomplete (it's just missing like 1, maybe 2, parts) and that doesn't make sense to me. It's like making 5m engines and adapters, but no fuel tanks. Great, and what can I do with these? Make slightly different shaped rockets? Uhh, ok then. Bit weird, but whatever. Same with these - what can I do? Make bigger spaceplanes? Ok, well, can I do anything with them except fly them? No, not really, they're just there if you want to use them. If you want to take cargo or anything other than 16 kerbals, you'll need to strap it to the front or use the Mk2 bays.

Regarding QA etc - I apologise, I was under the impression they were paid. Still though, my point remains - I didn't buy the game to bug test it, I bought the game to play it. If I'm going to bug test it, I want to be given a version to test, not one that's released to the entire world. I know it's early access, I know there will be bugs, but it is not on me to find and report them. Sure, I will if I come across any, but I shouldn't (and don't) have to. But that is a different discussion and veering off-topic.

I know the EULA and ToS and that Squad are fully within their right to release incomplete content/features (hell, nothing stopping them releasing just the Mk3 cockpit and saying 'what you gonna do about it?'), what I'm saying that you appear to be misunderstanding is that the current Mk3 lineup is 99% complete and the remaining 1% makes the 99% a whole lot more useful and may miss the release by a week or less. It doesn't make sense to me that this could be a thing - Squad sets the release dates themselves! There is literally zero harm in pushing back the release by a few days to a week so they can be included and make a fully complete set (for the first time in KSP history..).

Anyway, I've said all I need to say. I'm bowing out of this before it gets too heated or off-topic. Night, everyone.

Edited November 28, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP
maths is hard

[Higgs]

<stuff not related to what was pointed at me has been cut>

USELESS to you.

NO. Useless period. What good sir, is the use of a MK3 spaceplane if you have no cargo bay that FITS the size of the craft in question? Answer: NONE. The ONLY reason a space plane becomes useful is when you can carry a payload with it into orbit. When you cannot carry a payload into orbit with a craft it is functionally useless. This is not just useless to me, but to all concerned. So, to say it again: Squad really does need to give the MK 3 cargo bays with the new MK 3 plane parts or not bother at all. Oh, and to FURTHER quash your statement that it is only useless to ME, space plane parts to me, seeing as the planes I make fly about as well as the Spruce Goose after a termite attack, they are ALL useless unless I make something like Das Valdez did with his Majesty class ship. So, again, no cargo bays makes the shiney new parts nothing more than CHROME PLATING. Pretty to be sure, but, no real value. <mic drop>

[razark]

What good sir, is the use of a MK3 spaceplane if you have no cargo bay that FITS the size of the craft in question?

Crew transport.

<mic drop>

Indeed.

[Higgs]

Crew transport.

that makes for either a very limited scope of use, which is more cheaply accomplished using for example soyuz like technology. BUT, if you trying to send crew AND cargo, then, thats when a space plane is useful. BUT, i will stop here, as people seem too set in the: I want .90 NOW mentality. Best of luck to those who want it now with out what is truly a key component.

[Brotoro]

Most of my SSTO flights are for crew transport. I use rockets for equipment payloads.

[Jouni]

For me, the editor improvements in VAB/SPH are going to be the main point of 0.90. Everything else is just some extra fluff that's nice to have but not so essential. If finishing all that extra fluff would delay the 0.90 patch past Christmas, they can be left to the next patch.

[razark]

...people seem too set in the: I want .90 NOW mentality.

And others seem quite set in the "If I can't have the toys I want, no one gets any toys" mentality.

[Yellowburn10]

I tend to feel some of us tend to overreact when it comes to things like this. I don't blame you, I do it too. But, really, did Porkjet go and say plainly that mk3 cargo bays aren't coming for .90? Of course not, he said that there was a CHANCE of them not coming. Yet some of us are wanting squad to cut back the release because of a chance of the bays not coming out.

Yes, the mk3 plane parts wouldn't have that great of use without them, but they wouldn't be totally useless. And no, I'm not just talking about crew transfer. For instance, I can see the parts being used for a giant, awesome-looking rover base, that can hold a ridiculous amount of crew and even have room for a science lab. Perfect to send to another planet when the new biomes get implemented.

Anyways, if you ask me, I wouldn't put it on Porkjet not to finish this on time. It looks like everything else is done about it, and even if cargo bays take longer to work on, I feel like we should get them on time. But, that's just me.

[Higgs]

And others seem quite set in the "If I can't have the toys I want, no one gets any toys" mentality.

id laugh, but ive a headache so i will not. I am of the mentality: If you cannot give enough resources to make all aspects worth the time to be given, do not give what cannot be completed. It would be like going to a car dealership and buying a car, BUT, the dealer saying: Well, you can take delivery of your car now, but, it will only be primered and not have glass, OR you can wait a few weeks while we get your car painted some random color and take it then, but, by the way, it STILL won't have glass, BUT, if you wait a FULL MONTH, you can have it painted to a color of your choosing, AND we will have the glass installed for you as well.

THAT is what it is like to say: here is .90 BUT, its not painted, and has no glass. Paint and glass in this case being proper cargo bays. The paint being some randomly applied cargo bays, and the BOTH being, the right cargo bays to fit the parts nicely. Look, if you want to buy a race horse that can finish the race in a year please, be my guest buddy, BUT, id rather have a horse I know that not only will finish this race, but finish it 3 or 4 lengths ahead of the pack.

[razark]

If you cannot give enough resources to make all aspects worth the time to be given, do not give what cannot be completed.

Right, that's what was said. "We don't have this completed, so we're not giving it to you. (But you can have this other stuff that is completed.)"

It would be like going to a car dealership and buying ... a horse I know that not only will finish this race, but finish it 3 or 4 lengths ahead of the pack.

So, what you're saying is that the devs said we'd have certain things in the game, and they shouldn't release anything until they release it all? Waiting until version 1.0 to get it would kind of defeat the purpose/definition of "early access".

You paid for an incomplete game. You're getting exactly what you paid for. Sometimes, things are not going to be in their final state when we get them.

If I go to the car dealership and buy 47% of a car, I don't then get to complain that I didn't get a whole car (or even 62% of one).

Edited November 28, 2014 by razark

[Alshain]

I am of the mentality: If you cannot give enough resources to make all aspects worth the time to be given, do not give what cannot be completed.

But why? If the other parts are complete why sit on them until they are all completed. They aren't getting any more changes and some people (like myself) have fun building planes just to fly, it doesn't need to have a reason. So why would it be you would make these parts and then not give them to the players because there are no cargo bays, even though cargo bays would come in the next version? Your car analogy doesn't fit the actual situation. If you don't want to use them because there are no cargo bays, then don't. I for one will use them with or without cargo bays.

This can all be summed up in one statement really...

Just because that is how you play the game, doesn't mean that is how everyone plays the game.

[Higgs]

@razark: there is incomplete, and then there is illogical. The idea of giving us a shiney new MK3 set up with out giving cargo bays, like they did when they integrated SPP is a step in the wrong direction. It is that simple. Telling me that this is early access is to be blunt insulting. You honestly think I do not know this? Please go away from me now.

@ Alshain: Look, obviously I have not been clear, probably my mistake. What you describe is sandbox activity, and that sir, is fine and dandy. I am looking more at the Science/Career mode aspect, in which, NOT having cargo bays that FIT IN WITH the new MK3 stuff is about as illogical as it gets. It gives you the chrome but takes out your storage space so to speak. My analogy fits when you see where it is I am looking.

[razark]

@razark: there is incomplete, and then there is illogical.

Yes, lacking cargo bays in 0.90 is an example of "incomplete". I thank you for providing the example of the other with your car analogy.

You honestly think I do not know this?

I am only able to discern what you think from your posts.

Please go away from me now.

Ouch. Curses, foiled again. Alas, I am undone! Never has an argument been won by such astounding lexical dexterity!

(And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids!)

[Alshain]

@ Alshain: Look, obviously I have not been clear, probably my mistake. What you describe is sandbox activity, and that sir, is fine and dandy. I am looking more at the Science/Career mode aspect, in which, NOT having cargo bays that FIT IN WITH the new MK3 stuff is about as illogical as it gets. It gives you the chrome but takes out your storage space so to speak. My analogy fits when you see where it is I am looking.

Fine, but you said don't include the parts at all if there are no cargo bays. If they decide to exclude the parts from career, that would exclude them from sandbox. Your car analogy still doesn't fit though. If I had to make a car analogy it would be more like "Your new car with moonroof, power windows, and XM radio isn't ready yet, so we are giving you a rental with no moonrooft, manual windows, and standard radio to drive until it is."

Edited November 28, 2014 by Alshain

[Higgs]

Fine, but you said don't include the parts at all if there are no cargo bays. If they decide to exclude the parts from career, that would exclude them from sandbox. Your car analogy still doesn't fit though. If I had to make a car analogy it would be more like "Your new car with moonroof, power windows, and XM radio isn't ready yet, so we are giving you a rental with no moonrooft, manual windows, and standard radio to drive until it is."

look at it this way, they gave us an update last time with Cargo Bays, and from I can see in those pictures, we are going to get one with out them. That is a step in the wrong direction is what that is. It would be akin to you going to an eatery of your choice, and one day getting a meal with say, a large beverage, then going back say, a week later, getting that SAME meal, only this time, they say, sorry, you get a SMALL beverage. See, to me, that is not cool. What ever DOES happen will happen, and nothing YOU or I or ANYONE can say here on this thread or any like it, will change that. BUT, and here is the key, I do not now, nor in any post prior or future, require you to agree with me on this or anything. Just see my point, that is all I can ask, all I can hope for. I however would LOVE some clarity from the devs on this, as, I feel like we are starting to go in circles, kinda like an ourorboros. Look, I THINK they should hold off the MK3 styled SPP parts until they can give us matching cargo bays, YOU think: let them give us what they got now. We have differing idiologies sure enough, and we are in different camps. Lets part now and meet back when they give us the update or preferably MORE information on what it is that we are IN FACT getting.

[Frank_G]

With a bit of patience we will see all the shiny Mk. III parts with cargo bays, landing gear and all that stuff that Squad imagined for us in full and complete beauty. Take your time guys

[Higgs]

With a bit of patience we will see all the shiny Mk. III parts with cargo bays, landing gear and all that stuff that Squad imagined for us in full and complete beauty. Take your time guys

....but but what about time warp?

[sal_vager]

Just stepping in to remind everyone that KSP is a work in progress and you are getting early access, it was this way 0.12, 0.13, 0.14....

Some things will be pushed back to 0.91, some may even be brought forwards, that's just the way it is

We may still see cargo bays, it's not over till the fat lady sings after all

Now back on topic everyone!

Edited November 28, 2014 by sal_vager

[Wjolcz]

First thing I'm making after 0.90 comes out is something Valkyrie-like from Avatar and sending it to Laythe with a space station and surface base kit

[Twreed87]

If .90 comes out, and it has Mk3 parts, but no Mk3 cargo bays, I'm still gonna build Mk3 spaceplanes and fly them around and crash them. I'd hate for them to delay the entire Mk3 set just because some people think their only use is to lift cargo. Don't deny me my ability to build passenger airliners because you lack imagination.

[Daze]

AMAZING parts, maybe some of the best in the stock game, one little disappoinment is the Mk-2/Mk-3 Adaptor which seems to has an "hump"....