What is the point of the Suggestions subforum?

[CaptainKipard]

I think deep down everyone knows an overwhelming majority of the ideas in this subforum will never see the light of day past the several days it takes for a thread to reach page 2.

Squad tend to keep quiet on everything, and the community manager, from what I've seen, will usually only liaise when something is badly received. But it has to be an extreme crapstorm as was the case with certain EXP effects, nothing else will do.

So, what are we doing here exactly? I'm starting to think it's a huge waste of time and effort, and it just leads to false expectations. It's a bit offensive really.

What I'm suggesting I guess is that if a thread gets long enough (not a specific number) and is rated highly, that a developer pop in to just say whether they're even considering this idea, whether they're interested in the discussion in that thread, or whether they are not interested, so we can stop getting our hopes up and move on to other ideas.

I've been taking part in discussions in a few threads where I'd make diagrams and mockups to illustrate something for the benefit of everyone and the time it takes to make them, while short, it is not insignificant if it's a wasted effort.

What do you think?

Edited November 27, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Scoundrel]

I agree. It doesn't need to be HarvesteR but there needs to be an official response at some level. Squad boasts on their website that they're a marketing company, but they have consistently misjudged how to interact with the community (anyone remember the Frostiken incident?) over the last couple of years. Heck, Reddit gets more dev love than their own forums.

Now, I do get that after the DLC incident that they're a bit gunshy, but the forums are their tool with which they can interact with their consumer base and decide which features they should prioritize based on community feedback. And on a sub-forum that is literally about asking them for a feature or a discussion about a feature, one would think that there would be someone who would pop on and say something like:

"Hey, we're considering something similar to this idea, though it would be nowhere near as complicated as posted. Our time budget is tight so we're not sure if its something that will make it into the game or not as we have a few features with a higher priority to work on at them moment."

or maybe

"This is a great idea. Unfortunately we don't feel that it's necessary for the core of the game as we have to prioritize some other feature(s) since we're on a limited time budget. You might want to post this idea in the mod thread."

Of course I can also understand devs not wanting to jump in on threads: they're time consuming; everyone wants to engage the dev in discussion; and the dev likely doesn't want their judgement constantly questioned. That's fine.

That said, it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a spokesperson for the devs who engage the community on the dev's behalf in matters such as this. It isn't complicated, hell it's basic marketing 101 (okay actually its marketing 1550 but whatever) that if you say you are going to engage the community then you need to engage them in some level.

IMHO it feels like this subforum was abandoned by the devs and is only used for flamewars or to make people think that their voice can be heard when really it's only the mods who patrol these subforums.

[Nuke]

i think one thing the devs are doing by not posting is that they dont want to have to debate their design decisions with members of the community who disagree with them. that could seriously cut into your dev time. its better to post a new topic and say this is what we did this week, as is done on the weekly dev notes. it avoids a lot of bad blood between devs, and members of the community.

[Pthigrivi]

Jesus guys get a grip. So you posted in a few forums and now squad is required to custom build a game around you? You realize there are thousands of people with little opinions on this board, right? They can't respond to every one. Your expectations are insane. Most people come here to chime in with a fun idea or point out something missing (or in my case) just because its fun to think about. If they ever actually did anything I suggested Id feel like I hit the lottery.

That they listen at all is incredible and astonishing. Just relax and have fun and play the game guys.

Edited November 27, 2014 by KasperVld
removed minor profanity

[Bill Phil]

Well, the occasional great idea ( a la cameras) should get a comment from Kasper or something...

It would at least make it seem worth it to post.

[vexx32]

As this discussion is about the forum itself, rather than the game, I've moved it to the Kerbal Network forum and altered the title such that it does not confuse anyone unnecessarily.

Carry on, folks, but I will remind you that just because someone isn't all sunshine and daisies, that's no reason to attack them; after all, discontented people are what keep the world getting better, year after year. But do remember to keep it constructive. Destructive criticism doesn't help anyone whatsoever, and tends to worsen the situation overall.

[LABHOUSE]

I agree, or at least make there be a messenger go and ask the devs then tell us what they think.

[Kegereneku]

I can entirely understand SQUAD not giving any targeted or even visible feedback over our suggestion. They've done so in the past and it have lead to problem.

But it doesn't mean they don't care, nor that they don't read it.

Look at it from their point of view :

- They can only work on a few thing at a time, if they started giving immediate priority to whatever have been last discussed, they would never be working on the stuff they planned themselves.

- If they answer someone negatively, even giving lot of reason why, that person is still very likely to defend his idea and expect... no require counter-argument as to why his simple altruistic idea to benefit all of mankind, shouldn't be implemented.

- If they answer someone positively, even making sure to tone down the idea the fanbase will not forget it and build more upon the original suggestion.

They say : "we plan to allow deep space refueling", we translate : refueling --> gas station --> regular travel --> tycoon game --> extrakerbin VAB

And let's be honest, our suggestion can be ridiculous, Right now I'm reading : [suggestion] Dancing kerbals

While other suggestion would require to be a game-designer to understand their feasibility.

Even without answering anyone in particular, just describing as they already ar what they are working right now :

To quote HarvesteR :

""The specifics of these are still very much subject to change, however, so I’m not very eager to start talking about what they are just yet. They may very well be something else entirely next week for all we know""

And that's because it's what happen in design process.

I do not talk from personal experience here, but I've known team of modder, they were constantly experimenting and changing their idea as they discovered that one of them unbalanced everything or did not have it's place in the grand design.

So really, I do not see anything wrong with the way SQUAD is now doing their PR.

Most of the greatest-yet-reasonable idea I have seen discussed in Suggestion (I spent all my time here) have been introduced in some form or another, minus thing that were not actually necessary.

Also, they DID said we would get a rework of the aerodynamic model, which is mindbogglingly important. Just as important than when they introduced docking, EVA, and sized up every part.

[KasperVld]

I think the main points against high level developer interaction have already been raised. HarvesteR and the other devs used to be far more active here back when the community was small, but once the community grew keeping up with suggestions, development discussions and requests became a larger and larger task. 50% of my job is to monitor the forums (front end and back end), just to give you an idea. If the devs had to spend even just an hour per day going over the suggestions etc.. and replying to them then you'd lose about 3 days of work by the end of the month per developer. The more interesting suggestions and discussions do get picked up from time to time though and they're discussed within the team too. But like I said it's not reasonable (I think) to expect the devs to read and reply to all those discussions.

Well, the occasional great idea ( a la cameras) should get a comment from Kasper or something...

It would at least make it seem worth it to post.

I could comment on those things, but they would strictly be my personal opinions and I'm afraid that distinction would soon be lost, and if I like something then it would soon turn to "Squad likes it". I'm not a developer and while I might know a few more things about where the game is heading than the average Joe here (for lack of a better term) that does not put me in a position where I can comment on which features are coming in the game and which are not, or say something is a good or bad design decision.

[CaptainKipard]

Let me reiterate for Kegereneku, Pthigrivi and anyone else who doesn't care to respond to the original post directly.

I'm asking for a Yes/No/Maybe for only the longest and highly-rated threads. There aren't that many of them.

I'm not talking about things like adding a "Quit" button, which should be done as a matter of course for any game anyway.

I'm not talking about things like dancing Kerbals which will keep the average Kerbonaut entertained for a femtosecond.

Are we clear? I said that from the beginning.

WRT time: One thing I often want to do is to make bullet point summaries of those threads, and anyone who's active in a thread like this can do it, but they have to know that someone's actually reading that summary. There's always a solution and I'm just asking for Squad to stop leading everyone on. The subforum exists, and by its existence it suggests that members are being heard.

If the subforum has outlived its usefulness then remove it; stop wasting everyone's time with your passivity. We're not just talking to a wall, we're under the (false(?)) impression that the discussion has a purpose.

If not, then come up with a simpler way to include community ideas in your internal disussions, like:

• Decide on some quality and length threshold for a thread. This would be monitored by the mods.
  
• The community can write their own summaries, which mods can PM to the devs or the CM.
  

Look on the first page of that subforum and count how many threads are longer than 5 pages. Now ask yourself how long ago those threads were started.

The resource thread is 18 pages now.

It's reasonable to assume that the devs have meetings of some sort where they discuss ideas already. They don't have to do anything extra, except read the summary, and then do what they do anyway, and finally come back with a Yes/No/Maybe. The "Maybe" can be used when the devs aren't convinced, which would continue the discussion, resulting in a new set of bullet points.

I'll take "No" for an answer in those threads, but it has to actually come for me and everyone else to stop talking.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[KasperVld]

You raise a fair point Cpt. Kipard, from your point of view definitely. That said, from a Squad point of view specific features are often very hard to comment on because of the iterative development cycle the game is in. Take the resources for example: Squad has confirmed that resources will be coming to the game, and they may have an idea about the outlines of the feature, which parts will it use, and perhaps the devs really like the way some mods implement scanning (purely an example), but all this does not mean they know exactly how stock ISRU will turn out. Work on these kinds of features has often not begun yet and so giving any in-depth commentary can only backfire in the future, so the only thing they can really say at this moment is "it's planned" or "it's a cool idea", which are both not very satisfying or useful answers.

Your request for a "yes/no/maybe" type of answer even ties into this. What does "maybe" mean? Does it mean it's coming to the game? What if the devs say something is not planned for the game and it is later decided to go for such a feature, or vice versa? Features can only be discussed in the team once development on them begins. Again, your request is perfectly understandable but a bit impractical for Squad to implement. The moderators have come up with some ideas to initiate a little more feedback from the Suggestions forum, I'll kick those around and see if they're viable because more community interaction is definitely something that's beneficial to everyone I think.

[Kegereneku]

I think you are being unreasonable Cpt.Kipard.

It take way more than a "YES/NO" to answer a suggestion in a meaningful way without being condescending or called back as a liar later.

A growing fanbase is unlikely to come to a consensus as to what to submit for approval to the developers. Such discussion are already plagued by loud egocentric minority trying to win the argument by any sophistic arguments necessary.

The rating of a topic and the quantity of posts in it are not representative of the quality of anything that have been suggested in it. On the contrary, longer thread with a lot of different opinion are clear sign of feature/change people cannot agree on.

Even if around 10 active participants and hundred backers giving rep point were to vote to agree on a single summary, no developers could guaranteed (for reason stated earlier) that any percentage of this feature, subdivided in sub-sub-features will make it anytime soon in the game in any form.

And be honest.

If you could have the answer of a devs, for I quote you :

Molar masses, and realistic reaction proportions (even if scaled, like everything else) should be a thing for the sake of modability and ease of implementation. I'm in a predicament right now where IntakeAir ends up having to provide over 100 times more oxygen than it should to my engines, because no one thought to make resources based on the principles of chemistry.

And he said "No".

Wouldn't you just reformulate it "Realistic volume ratio"...and so on, indefinitely in the hope of getting what you want ?

[KasperVld]

I think you are being unreasonable Cpt.Kipard.

Unreasonable is the wrong word here Kegereneku, there's definitely reason behind his request, albeit that I feel the reasoning is based on his standpoint alone.

loud egocentric minority trying to win the argument by any sophistic arguments necessary.

On what basis do you conclude certain features are put forward by a minority? And don't we all promote things we'd like to see in the game, and as such what is it about some people that makes them more loud and egocentric than others? You're generalising without any basis here and that detracts from your other arguments. Namecalling and excluding people is not the way to move forward.

[Nuke]

there is a reason its called computer science, you actually have to implement and test things to find out what works and what doesn't. you can design the most elegant and perfect system imaginable on paper, implement it in code, and then have your testers come back and say its not very useful. ive spent many an hour on a code file in my own game engine just to end up chucking it in the deprecated folder and doing a new system in its place, even if its not what i had originally planed or even wanted.

so when you get 10 community members who have 15 ideas about how to implement vague idea x and are all trying to come out on top, the last thing you want to do is say things like: 'your idea is good', 'your idea is bad', 'but were going to do this instead'. it just adds fuel to the conflict and things get out of hand. people take things personally and start forming grudges, next thing you know people are threatening to delete their installs and leave the community. or worse, start spreading slander outside the community. then throw on top of that the flakiness of iterative development, where the charred remains of many a failed idea are left to rot, no matter how promising they initially appeared. ive seen it happen in other games communities and its not pretty.

but of course that doesn't mean they dont read it, even if they refrain from participating in debates. they might skim read over posts about features they are currently implementing. looking for ideas and whatnot. the board serves a purpose, just not the one you think it does.

[JimmyAgent007]

I think any official statement on any feature before its in QA or they KNOW it will be in the game is a bad move. They mentioned deep space refueling but no specifics because its up in the air and can be changed if its not fun or whatever. Things subject to change before release should be kept quiet. There are many entitled people who feel a comment is a binding contract and so they become more trouble than they are worth.

However, if the devnotes included a "Suggestions threads discussed" list, just to say they have read it. No yes or no or maybe or whatever. Just that it was talked about. That might be a good compromise. People learn that the discussions they have are getting read even if not responded too.

[Kegereneku]

Unreasonable is the wrong word here Kegereneku, there's definitely reason behind his request, albeit that I feel the reasoning is based on his standpoint alone.

I find his particular suggestion to his request unreasonable even if I can understand the reasons behind. My first post did tried to highlight why the developers did not again took a more participative approach to fan's suggestion.

On what basis do you conclude certain features are put forward by a minority? And don't we all promote things we'd like to see in the game, and as such what is it about some people that makes them more loud and egocentric than others? You're generalising without any basis here and that detracts from your other arguments. Namecalling and excluding people is not the way to move forward.

"I plead guilty of generalizing, but my concern are based upon simple observation of the Suggestions subforum ecosystem your honor."

I have seen regularly the same strong personalities, putting a lot of effort into particularly detailed suggestion, either as part of new topic or while participating to other topic, every time trying to promote said particularly specific modification to KSP for personal reasons assumed to be true by default.

And having suggested myself idea that took "some work", I claim to know the urge of defending our own idea, regardless of others disapproval or call for consensus.

This, is why I would distrust myself a topic where devoted fan of KSP were given the prospect of "telling the dev what to do", to put it bluntly.

Now, of course, I have to admit that I might be getting carried over by a long running "Resources discussion" in which I and Cpt.Kipard are both participant and from which is born his desire to make this topic. A desire that come from the lack of direct feedback from the Developers but doesn't lead to reasonable solution.

I hope this explain why my answer to cpt.Kipard was slightly more personal than what this context call for.

[robopilot99]

I agree with this. I know squad cannot possibly be expected to reply to every feature request I am somewhat frustrated because of the lack of any developer activity on the suggestions forum. Think about it, have you ever seen a dev comment on any suggestion. I feel that it would be good if the devs commented on sugestion threads with very large amounts of activity, such as the scratch style action groups thread, just so the community can know their requests are being heard. Maybe the devs could ask the mods to sticky threads that get sufficient attention so that they can easily find threads that deserve an official reply. I know that I am frustrated that the suggestions forum seems to be so completely ignored.

[John FX]

I agree with the sentiment of the OP but I can see how this would not be possible in reality also.

It would just take too much time from the making of the game to trawl through the forum looking for the odd diamond of an idea and to comment in threads, even just the large ones.

Maybe a middle ground could be an official `roadmap` of future features?

This surely could be a thing now we are nearing feature completion...

Like the unofficial one where there were extra planets and so forth (which became out of date and very inaccurate) except updated monthly by SQUAD.

Taking multiplayer as an example it would have been on the list but listed as `planned, possibly after release` but after the thread where multiplayer was shown to work it could be updated to `in development, uncertain release`

Should it become more of a developed thing and release is imminent that may change to `in development, planned for next update`

It would not take long for someone to update it monthly (just the changes) and it would appease the people who just want to know where the game is going and whether a certain thread had caught the attention of the people who actually matter (as far as making the game goes, of course you ALL matter)

win-win as far as I see it. We get told what`s going on and it does not take loads of dev time. If there are important threads then you could check there and you will see if it has been taken on board.

EDIT :

If a person puts a lot of effort into their posts in a thread though, they should be doing it for the other forum users IMHO and if reddit gets more attention from Devs and that is the reason the post was made then maybe posting there would make more sense?

Posting to try and influence devs rather than responding to the other forum users in their own right could seem a little...insulting to other users?

I`m not insulted myself but if devs not responding to posts can be insulting then someone posting ostensibly in response to you but in fact talking to a third party could be seen that way also.

Anyway it`s possible to take offense at pretty much anything. It`s not always the best way forward.

We should post in response to other posters and if it goes further than that and gets the attention of devs then we should be pleased that it did rather than be upset it did not IMHO.

I`d still like a roadmap though...

Edited November 27, 2014 by John FX

[longbyte1]

I think that the suggestions board is utterly useless when you have 5,000 threads and only about 10% of them have been posted on within one month, and even more are duplicates. There is not one out of 100 developers that will happily trudge through 119 pages of suggestions.

A better suggestions system is necessary if one wishes to go forth with a serious proposal without being turned down as if the quality of an intricate plan equaled that of a single-sentence remark. Thus, serious proposals should be given the attention they deserve.

Suggestions should be "brought to the table" (the suggestions forum) and discussed on for two months, beginning with the first reply. If no replies are made in one month, the thread should be locked and archived. However, if there is activity but a consensus is not reached within the two-month window, then the thread should be moved to an "under discussion/staging" section, or locked and archived, similar to a parliament or congress.

If suggestions are to be made directly to Squad and taken seriously, there must be action, and developers must be hard-pressed to decide on a feature or proposal that has gained popularity by the community in order to cut down on prolonged discussions and other forum drama (recall the x64 threads).

Of course, Reddit has an overall better system for voting. Perhaps the suggestions board's future is truly hopeless.

[John FX]

This all based on the assumption though that the suggestions are more than just suggestions and are in fact `important attempts to affect the course of the game which it is very important for squad to follow`.

If I suggest to someone that queen street will get them to port street quicker than going by king street and then see them trot off down king street then it should not matter as it was only a suggestion...

In the same way, squad are making a game and we can make suggestions, not a common thing in game making. If squad choose to listen or if they choose after listening to act then that is not up to us.

As I have said to many people in my life who were trying to get me to do what they wanted "If you are only suggesting or advising then I`ll do what I want. Of course I will take your words on board and consider them but I will still do what I want. If you are telling me then I will do what I want and I won`t take your words on board"

I feel `the suggestion board` is fine unless you want to make it the `telling squad what to do board` in which case it has a limited life, yes.

I like the idea of the OP making the first post a bullet point list of the points raised in the thread. I`m not sure this would work in practice though, try getting good bug reports and you`ll see the variability of what people think is a good way to collect and present data. Just understanding it is a job in itself.

If someone is supposed to go through all the threads and do that as a job, who pays them? Why should someone get paid to do that job over someone being paid to write code for example?

These are questions that would need answering before it could happen.

I still think a monthly updated roadmap would stop anyone from being told their idea was good or bad, thereby stopping threadwars, and still let people know if any ideas have been taken on board giving the feedback desired.

[Scoundrel]

I think what the OP was asking is:

"What is the point of the devs asking our opinions if we don't receive comment from them. Perhaps a high volume/highly rated thread might warrant a small response as reward for our efforts?"

As in imagine a conversation where a monkey asks you for a suggestion, so you give it to them, and the people around you debate your suggestion in front of the that monkey, and afterwards there's no reply from the monkey. It just stares blankly back at you as it slowly eats a banana. Kinda makes you feel stupid, right?

Now, perhaps your idea might get implemented, but without any feedback (not even a "hey, good idea, we'll look into that but no promises") then it shouldn't be a subforum at all, just a link with a "send us your ideas but we'll never respond" email thing and we can do away with these pointless public debates over an idea that the devs will never use anyways.

Hell, this thread is a great point in case as to why someone who suggests something creates a situation of negativity as those who provide their own rationalizations as to why that suggestion is bad has caused these "discussions" to do little else but sow discord amongst posters.

Does no one see the irony here?

The sad fact of the matter is that there is no point debating a suggestion or offering detailed suggestions because the devs will do their own thing regardless of our discussions. When the devs want our input, they will ask for it, either by poll or by starting a thread and asking the question themselves, or perhaps even via livestream. Those are really the only efficient mechanisms for gauging community feedback on features that the devs have at their disposal, as Kasper has so eloquently pointed out without actually saying it.

I suspect that if there's going to be community-desired features added to the game that it will most likely come from adapting mods rather than anything we suggest in the suggestions subforum. HarvesteR himself even talked about bringing mods into the game, and the reasoning for doing so, thus it will be mod popularity and gameplay fit that, in the long run, determines what gets added to the game and what doesn't.

So, in conclusion, I humbly submit that since Squad has announced the game scope complete, I submit that the suggestions subforums have pretty much run their course and should either be retired so we can move on, or; moved to the mod section where modders can get ideas, and where programming Darwinism can allow for the best mod to rise to the top and be added to the game.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Scoundrel
Less inflamatory

[longbyte1]

programming Darwinism

capitalism*

I will stand by Scoundrel's words, simply because he is right in that there is no point in arguing over something that's not going to happen anyway (99% reject probability, statistically speaking). Therefore, the suggestions board should be burned to the stake.

When the moderators get around to reading this thread, they may or may not reach a consensus, and, in my mind, here's what may follow:

• The Squad team will argue that "the suggestions board is for good PR" when, in fact, not removing the suggestions board would actually give them a less honest, more dirty-EA-corner-cutter look. As a result, the suggestions board would remain forgotten and never taken seriously again.
  
• The staff will announce the closure of the suggestions board with euphemisms to skirt around explaining why the suggestions board has proven to be dysfunctional, both to the community and to Squad. The title would probably be something about "consolidating" the subforums and "retiring" the suggestions board in favor of "new channels such as Reddit" that are more "accessible".
  

I hope what I just described above doesn't actually happen, because that would be terrible for my well-being.

[vexx32]

What do you mean "when we get around to reading this thread"?

You mean you didn't notice that a) I moved it out of Suggestions in the first place, and Lead Moderator KasperVld commented already? We're aware of this, naturally. We're aware of everything

In all seriousness, though, there will be no simple solution to any of this. I've had a few ideas of my own which I've suggested directly to the higher-ups, but in the end it's up to the folks at Squad as to what ends up happening. I sincerely doubt that there'll be any closures of the Suggestions board; it's counterproductive, solves nothing, and really just makes Squad look intolerant (a sort of "you kids get off our lawn!", so to speak).

[Scoundrel]

I sincerely doubt that there'll be any closures of the Suggestions board; it's counterproductive, solves nothing, and really just makes Squad look intolerant (a sort of "you kids get off our lawn!", so to speak).

So why continue to have a subforum devoted to adding features to a game, when the devs don't have time to read the suggestion let alone reply to it, where all it really does is either provide the seeds for good mods or the seeds for heated arguments? And before someone distorts this statement to read "all he wants is his own private game" what I am referring to is the function it serves in the community. If it doesn't do what it says it's supposed to do, then, IMHO, it is time for change.

I know that scares people. I know many people fear that with that subforum gone that they think that they will lose their voice; or fear that it will dispell the illusion that the devs tailor the game based on our posts there. But the reality is that our participation on that subforum has become irrelevant. A thousand threads a day wouldn't change what the dev's have planned for KSP, and likewise they wouldn't notice if we never posted on there again.

See, the problem is that the suggestions board is an artefact from the days back when suggestions could actually be put into the game. Can anyone list a suggestion in the last two years that has been implemented? As in: Squad read about a suggestion, said "hey, we never thought of that, great idea!" and implemented it? I can't think of a single one. And with the game declared scope complete, there isn't anything more to add to the game except for parts/content and whatever little features HarvesteR has been mulling over.

In fact, I predict that the suggestions subforum will eventually devolve into a ridiculously large list of parts requests for people to flame each other endlessly over.

So, again, why are we debating over suggestions to put to the devs when the devs have neither the time, budget, nor inclination (understandably) to engage its community?

As we sit right now, all we do is continue to cling to the illusion that our own participation in the suggestion subforums has some meaning or relevance. Let's acknowledge its pointlessness and repurpose it for more constructive activities towards a game that we all love and feel passionate enough about to take the time to participate in its community.

[r4pt0r]

just here to support the release of an official roadmap. 2 months ago or so, when we were super dissapointed with the lacking dev notes, rowsdower said he would look into that.

Any progress?