Parts clipping - is it immoral?

[Starman4308]

How is it cheating if you still carry all the weight?

In addition, there are structural concerns. A bit thing with FAR is keeping your rocket slim and aerodynamic, which poses a problem, because long, slim rockets also tend to be wobbly rockets. If you clip a bunch of fuel tanks into one, you end up with a rocket with similar aerodynamics, but which is much easier to keep stable.

[Talavar]

I think this question is pretty subjective.. If you are using clipping to place a fueltank inside your Cockpit, then yeah, it's cheating, but if you are clipping wings together in a way that they could be welded in real life, then I would say no. So basically it depends on the situation.

[spaceman1999]

Dinosaurs! We all know it to be truth! ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD!

(Yes I like it)

[sgt_flyer]

I use part clipping mainly for aesthetics - and sometimes, when i work on real life replicas, the stock engines are not powerful enough by themselves to lift the replica (replicas which generally have a terrible mass ratio because of heavy usage of structural elements) so i have no problems with clipping if it allows me to replicate how a real life rocket operates.

(Like in my delta IV heavy replica, clipping a mainsail inside a KR-2L allowed me to replicate the 'throttle down' of the dIV heavy core booster, by shutting down only the mainsail during flight, then reingniting it when the side boosters separate.)

I also have no problems for partially / completely clipping some tanks inside other tanks or inside adapters, but i generally try to 'empty' some of those clipped tanks to keep the 'volume' correct.

Of course, this kind of clipping is not easy to do sometimes, and can easily result in a part becoming the child to another part.

In the end, it's down to each player to choose if he want to do this kind of things or not.

I personally won't judge anyone doing this kind of things (because we are in a solo game) nor will i force anyone to d/l my clipped ships if they don't want to use clipped ships.

So - you could think that clipping is bad - but that's your opinion and you are free to have it - up to the point that you don't try to enforce your opinion on others - because i'm free to choose my own limits too regarding a non competitive singleplayer game

(Unless we compete in a challenge / competitive multiplayer, and the rules explain what is allowed and what is not - in this case, i'll happily comply with the rules, which should be respected so each one has the same chances)

[John FX]

I am of the opinion that the only time clipping would be wrong is if someone used it in a craft for a challenge when one of the rules was `no clipping`

Other than that go for it to the level you want to. The thing I clip most often is RTGs into girders. I also clip in seperatrons for aesthetics. I`ll also clip fuel tanks into structural sections.

[Wallygator]

I'm utterly dependent on part clipping. I use enough mods containing parts with weird collision meshes that it takes mere seconds into the start of a build for me to have an RCS thruster block refuse to go where I need it, two perfectly-normal inline parts refuse to hook together at all, or, more rarely, to need a bulky part to merge into the hull a bit, such as a spaceplane's VTOL engine. Strangely enough, lots of particularly silly engine-through-tank clipping seems to be perfectly possible without actually turning part clipping on, while perfectly acceptable connections such as RCS thruster blocks on some tanks and nose cones on the tops of boosters just will not connect without part clipping enabled. More often than not, I just turn it on for consistency, since the set of rules for determining when a part is clipping and when it's not just doesn't make any sense.

Well, keep in mind that the oxidizer is still behaving as reaction mass - you can imagine the LV-N treating the fuel/oxidizer mix as just liquid hydrogen (which is notably a lot less dense than kerosene, but whatever). The oxidizer still has mass and is still being fired forcefully out the back of the engine, so you can't just pretend it's not there. Personally, I have no problem with pretending that you've figured out some cool magic way of compressing the fuel into twice the density half the space, since the mass is still all there anyway, and mass is most of what makes ships challenging. (It's also a singleplayer game, so it doesn't matter what I think about your game anyway.) If you really want to be a stickler for accuracy about clipping engines into tanks, you can always just tweak the fuel in the tank down to half full, or just use a smaller tank.

Right. So just to be clear, I do not imagine any oxidizer in the tank, so effectively it's half empty. Therefore a slight clipping is ok as part of my imagination. :-)

[LABHOUSE]

It is fine as long as it take up just as much space or if you have an extra part to make up for the missing space.

Edited December 1, 2014 by LABHOUSE

[cantab]

Or maybe it's because I feel the real challenge in this game is in building and designing, and working with the restrictions you have. It's like playing with Lego's, you can put all sorts of pieces together, but you have to make them fit, and you can't put some Lego's inside of other Lego's!

To which I respond that if I wanted to get a hacksaw and cut up my Lego bricks, I could.

[rennsport27]

KSP is a creative game more than a competitive one, so I think if you're using it to build something cool, go for it! There's a lot of awesome things people have created that would not be possible without a little old-fashioned part clipping.

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

I am of the opinion that the only time clipping would be wrong is if someone used it in a craft for a challenge when one of the rules was `no clipping`

Other than that go for it to the level you want to. The thing I clip most often is RTGs into girders. I also clip in seperatrons for aesthetics. I`ll also clip fuel tanks into structural sections.

We were talking about this in the JOOL-5 Challenge thread. (which has no-clipping rule) minor part clipping that believably takes advantage of empty space is allowable.

Placing things inside girder segments, clipping girders partially into hulls, rotating lights so they appear flush mounted, etc. all OK in my book and Ziv's.

Engines inside fuel tanks, fuel tanks inside cabins, that kind of thing - BIG NO.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Brainlord Mesomorph

[Secuas]

Dinosaurs, indeed.

[Johno]

I avoid clipping altogether. This has nothing to do with whether or not it's cheating (it isn't - I have no problem with bespoke parts being designed for a rocket!). Simply put I've had rockets explode, go off course or get aerodynamically torn to shreds because of the weirdness that clipping induces. So I won't use clipping until I'm a little more aware of WHY my rockets go boom-boom.

[EdFred]

I don't clip and even go one step further - I don't let retractable parts pass through other parts during the mission. Such as solar panels or landing gear passing through other parts. I do however allow parachutes to clip when deployed, but I look at that as a rendering issue as opposed to a construction and physics issue.

However, lights or batteries, or other things rotated to be inside hollow parts (large reaction wheel, girders, adapters) isn't clipping in my book, because, well, they are hollow, and they aren't occupying the same space.

[HafCoJoe]

I'm fine with it as long as you're not connecting fuel tanks in fuel tanks in fuel tanks

[WeirdCulture]

only in some rare cases,.. rest "NO"

[phunk]

Greetings, personally I never use parts clipping in design because I consider it somehow 'cheaty'. Yet, I've been recently told that parts clipping is absolutely normal and there's nothing wrong in using this option.

So, what I want to ask is probably been asked already. The question is in the poll.

(Do you consider using the parts clipping a cheat or no?)

UPD: I should probably have put 'immoral' in quotes. Of course I'm not seriously looking into morality of using a computer game option.

I consider it cheating to do something like put hidden wings inside the body of a plane, but not to do something like put a cubic strut partially inside something as an attachment point.

[pincushionman]

Note also that certain parts, among them the retractable ladders (they should) and the toroidal tanks (questionable) visibly clip into their mount part when they're attached properly.

[J.Random]

It's OK as long as you wash your hands afterwards.

Voted Dinosaurs, because dinosaurs.

[LABHOUSE]

It is ok in rare circumstances such as a glitch involving symmetry not allowing you to place it in one of the eight spots... but I don't even do that often as it is a last resort.

I think clipped parts should have no physics and not be able to have anything connected to them.

If it looks like it wouldn't fit in real life then it's bad (get a big hammer doesn't apply here).

It is an opinion.

[Troubletcat]

I just don't ever use the F12 menu.

And I believe that anyone who does is committing a vile sin and should be outcast from society.

(Seriously though it's a single-player game so like, whatever)

[KerbMav]

Yes, and thou wilst burn in hell

I mostly always only clip parts that will clip by themselve, mostly structural parts that can be attached with most of the part hidden in another part - I just see it like the invisible portion of the part is not really there, ignoring its mass still being there.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

morality seems like a pretty heavy handed concept to bring into a lego spaceship building game

[Norpo]

morality seems like a pretty heavy handed concept to bring into a lego spaceship building game

This is going in my signature if I ever figure out how to get the space to put it in. EDIT: dumped the "space is hard" ship from xkcd. Sad, but worth it. This quote is just too good.

Anyways, I tend to avoid parts clipping, if it just happens randomly, i'm fine with it, but I won't click and drag it 40 times to try to trick the game to clip it. In a sandbox i'm just messing with random stuff (e.g a tank that can blow up the VAB), i'll part-clip.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Norpo

[henryrasia]

If KSP had a "part creation" building where you could create your own parts (like stretchy tanks, or was it procedural parts?) the yes, clipping would be wrong. But since we don't have that, and unfortunately SQUAD does not appear to consider this a main gameplay feature as they should >, then it's perfectly fine to get our designs to work like we want them to. Part-clip away, young man!

Seriously, part creation...

[Shadow_Spark]

I only consider it 'Cheaty' if it's the kind that's activated through the f12 menu. If it's the kind where you're just rotating it to where some of the model clips into something, such as with wings, girders or landing gears, then i find that to be acceptable UNLESS it's something huge like clipping half of a full fuel tank into another even bigger fuel tank(also full).