Squadcast Summary (Updated 2014-12-13 - the 0.90 features video edition!)

[klgraham1013]

You mean aside from changing how kerbal experience works, and sending the Tier 0 KSC models and textures back to the VAB for a rework, both because of negative community feedback?

I feel like I have been quite negative with Squad recently. I need to keep in mind these things did happen and Squad has listened in the past.

[Sandworm]

I feel like I have been quite negative with Squad recently. I need to keep in mind these things did happen and Squad has listened in the past.

Yes. They listen now, before the feature is released to the public. But once it is they do not revisit. So now is the time to speak most loudly. The problem is that Squad's other trait, a lack of clarity regarding new features, means we must speak most loudly about things we cannot fully understand.

I too find myself very negative about Squad and KSP. I joined during the good old days when KSP was talked about as an engineering simulation. People spoke of how it was rekindling an interest in science and technology. I fear those days are gone, that the science and physics features have topped out. Aerodynamics will never be fixed. Life support will never be implemented. Even the ridiculously easy to fix issues (ie ISP affecting fuel flow rather than thrust) seem locked in stone. KSP once targeted those of us who got up early to watch shuttle launches and dreamed of attending space camp. Now Squad seems to be targeting those who get up early to watch the Jetsons and dream of riding space mountain. The move to beta with .90, to feature-completeness, may just be that final nail.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Sandworm

[Superfluous J]

Do it with neither pilots nor probes.

No, I will not do that. I will do a normal mission with the SAS provided by a probe or pilot, getting science with a scientist, and if possible will have an engineer as well. It will be frighteningly easy, I suspect, and will show how freaking out over a vague mention of a system on a Twitch stream is not a viable use of your time.

Yes. They listen now, before the feature is released to the public. But once it is they do not revisit.

That is not true. In many cases they HAVE not revisited those systems but that's not because they don't care about community opinion, it's because the game was in Alpha and if the system worked, they left it alone until they added all systems. That's how software works whether or not you personally can or cannot stand the rough-draft first-run implementation of whatever system you currently hate.

And also, they HAVE changed things after implementation. They changed SAS for Kraken's sake. Multiple times.

[Red Iron Crown]

For that matter, we're already on the second aerodynamic model.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Just a correction on that, while the released version of Unity is now 4.6.1, we're still using 4.5.5 for 0.90 and most likely will release it built with 4.5.5 across all platforms. We haven't upgraded the project to 4.6.1 as there are few fixes and benefits that it will bring initially and thus is best left for later.

Thanks for the clarification, I misinterpreted Max. Edited OP

[klgraham1013]

That is not true. In many cases they HAVE not revisited those systems but that's not because they don't care about community opinion, it's because the game was in Alpha and if the system worked, they left it alone until they added all systems. That's how software works whether or not you personally can or cannot stand the rough-draft first-run implementation of whatever system you currently hate.

The disconnect comes when the audience is privy to the development of a project. When Mojang and Squad decided to take full payment during alpha, they opened up the development process in a way that was unprecedented and unexpected. Now the community was indirectly involved in development. There's something to be said for an audience not knowing what they want till the have it, Steve Jobs proved as much, but when a community crys out for something so vehemently, maybe there's something to it. Squad may see aero as something they can fix later, after scope/feature complete, but it's obvious it's a fundamental part of the game that should have been looked at by now. If you're response is "Once all the features are in" then how was the editor in more dire need of an upgrade than the fundamental mechanics of flight?

There's probably a blog post which explains my feelings on the payment model of Minecraft and KSP, and it's effect on developer/customer relations, better than I can.

[Red Iron Crown]

how was the editor in more dire need of an upgrade than the fundamental mechanics of flight?

Just about every player spends a significant amount of game time in the editor. The same cannot be said of atmospheres, for some players it's just something to blast through on the way up and a useful braking medium.

[Sandworm]

And also, they HAVE changed things after implementation. They changed SAS for Kraken's sake. Multiple times.

Changed, tweaked, but not removed. Infinite and overpowered SAS is one of Squad's many patches to cover up other issues. The SAS we have is not a simulation of any realworld system. It's outright magic. It is needed to cover up other the lack of stable aerodynamics or on-rails rotation, and to add a degree of fun to spaceflight. I'm not saying it's the first thing I would remove, but infinite rotational authority via SAS is one of those cartoon features that Squad simply will not revisit.

(Uncontrollable spin is what defines the end of life for most spacecraft. When you don't have any fuel left to de-spin the reaction control wheels its game over. That's part of why so many deepspace probes now "hibernate" for extended periods, allowing themselves to spin uncontrolled until needed.)

The editor needs revisiting because it is the first thing people see when playing the game. Nearly all let's plays start with the editor. It's where reviewers get their first impressions. Mistakes made there make for not-fun play at launch. It needs to be seamless. Thats probably why they are removing parts clipping, to remove the randomness and unpredictability that sometime happens when trying to place parts.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Sandworm

[Ikaneko]

Yes. They listen now, before the feature is released to the public. But once it is they do not revisit. So now is the time to speak most loudly. The problem is that Squad's other trait, a lack of clarity regarding new features, means we must speak most loudly about things we cannot fully understand.

I too find myself very negative about Squad and KSP. I joined during the good old days when KSP was talked about as an engineering simulation. People spoke of how it was rekindling an interest in science and technology. I fear those days are gone, that the science and physics features have topped out. Aerodynamics will never be fixed. Life support will never be implemented. Even the ridiculously easy to fix issues (ie ISP affecting fuel flow rather than thrust) seem locked in stone. KSP once targeted those of us who got up early to watch shuttle launches and dreamed of attending space camp. Now Squad seems to be targeting those who get up early to watch the Jetsons and dream of riding space mountain. The move to beta with .90, to feature-completeness, may just be that final nail.

You seem to be under the impression that SQUAD are actually able to fix features right now. They are currently working extremely hard on new features, generally not refining them. This comes in beta. You obviously are very misinformed in regards to the aerodynamics model. Maxmaps has Said they'll be working on aerodynamics after 0.90. Your point about the gameification is extreme and misleading. This only applies to career mode, it will not apply to sandbox. Also, the game was never about the extremely technical stuff. It was presenting rocket science in a fun way. Therefore, in many ways the fact they're making I more appealing to those who don't know that much about it.

[Superfluous J]

If you're response is "Once all the features are in" then how was the editor in more dire need of an upgrade than the fundamental mechanics of flight?

Another fact of software development is that you don't fix the single most important thing first. You fix what you can, what won't break other things, what will lay a foundation for other things, and things like that.

That said, I do think the editor needed more attention than the aerodynamic model. It may not be realistic but it's solid (in more than one way har) and predictable. The editor has bugs all over the place with symmetry, action group memory, clipping being allowed or not, not being able to swap between symmetry modes, wonky undo... the list goes on. The aerodynamic model makes the game annoying for hardcore flight sim guys. The editor makes the game frustrating for EVERYBODY.

[Vrana]

Your sig image is very symptomatic of your attitude towards the state of aerodynamics ingame, 5thHorseman.

Not sure why i felt the need to share that, no offense intended. Guess i thought it was funny.

[Superfluous J]

Your sig image is very symptomatic of your attitude towards the state of aerodynamics ingame, 5thHorseman.

Not sure why i felt the need to share that, no offense intended. Guess i thought it was funny.

Haha no problem though I'll say here: I do prefer FAR. I only use stock aero so much in my videos because a) I think it's important that my ships fly similarly to the way they would if a new player saw my video and tried to make the ship, and stock aero just simply doesn't bug me.

[Sasquatch_Punter]

Squad may see aero as something they can fix later, after scope/feature complete, but it's obvious it's a fundamental part of the game that should have been looked at by now. If you're response is "Once all the features are in" then how was the editor in more dire need of an upgrade than the fundamental mechanics of flight?

The editor needed changes to fall in line with the new facility tier system. They had to rework parts of it and implement new ones (part limit comes to mind), and they obviously saw an opportunity to go in depth with it and improve overall functionality in the process. Ta-daa, rational thought ftw!

I think I heard the tier system was going to be the last big addition before scope complete. So hopefully they'll be looking at the aerodynamics after Beta releases (since they've admitted many times that it needs work).

[Overfloater]

Will kerbals have any kind of flight history/journey log?

[Parkaboy]

Will kerbals have any kind of flight history/journey log?

I hope so. Something like that has been mentioned by MaxMaps when they were first examining the idea of kerbal experience, but I'm not sure if it made into the version we'll see in .90

[Kanukki]

Would like to see a logbook history, similar to the science archives. I don't need Steam Achievements and understand the rationale for not including them, but a simple historical record of orbits, landings etc on other bodies would be welcome.

[Norpo]

Would like to see a logbook history, similar to the science archives. I don't need Steam Achievements and understand the rationale for not including them, but a simple historical record of orbits, landings etc on other bodies would be welcome.

This does something LIKE what you're looking for, but it also tracks it individually, per kerbal: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/67246-0-23-Final-Frontier-0-3-9

edit: Sadly, if you land/do something with a probe, it doesn't track it.

[foxkill2342]

Anyone else getting anxious for the videos. I'm willing to wait for the release, but I really want to see the update in action. There have been few specifics on what the update entails and how everything will work together compared to previous updates. I just really want to see how everything is going to fit in.

[CaptRobau]

Aerodynamics will never be fixed.

What are you talking about? Aerodynamics was mentioned as being on the board for a post 0.90 update.

[BudgetHedgehog]

OP has been updated with a link to the last Squadcast if you want to watch it for yourself. Thanks to Rowsdower for pointing me in the right direction, I'll try and get one up sooner next time around.

Also in the OP is updated info for biomes and KXP. Kinda bummed I missed out on this first time round!

Edited December 11, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[BudgetHedgehog]

OP has been updated with a review of the Squadcast just finished. Additionally, it is also below. Previous summaries are spoilered in the OP for your convenience.

Summary for 2014-12-13 - Watch it here (Twitch)

-Pretty slow one, Max is just finishing off his mission to Ike. I won't bore you with those details, that's not why you watch Squadcast However, the big news was the first showing of the features video

Previous takes of the video ended up at like 22 minutes long which is great, but pretty boring. In other words, they're best left to the media team. The official features video was played to great reception - however, a couple UI elements have changed in the actual update compared to the video, just FYI. Most of the features I covered in last weeks write up. I don't want to write a review of features video as you can watch it for yourself.

-Biome maps are available to view ingame, but only available in the debug menu. They're open to feedback on this though - if a large majority of players want that as an unlockable feature, it's doable.

-Update is coming, and I quote, "soon ;^)"

-Squad is doing their best to make saves compatible, but understandably they don't want to promise anything. AFATK though, no incompatibilities exist with old saves when upgrading. That said, the game has changed a lot so to get the full benefit from it, you should start over.

-IVAs will be coming in beta, not in this update - they're great to have, but are a lot of work to make. A lot more work than making a whole new awesome part, for instance. But they're coming, don't worry. But for now, no new Mk3 IVA (I personally suggest using B9s HL IVA until then).

-Cool stuff with some merch happening soon as well, will be very good and unique to every KSP players. More info later.

Yeah, that's basically it.. as I said, pretty slow one, not much new, you should probably just watch the features video. All important info is there anyway. See you guys next week!

See you guys next week!

Edited December 13, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[woodensen]

Whoa, thanks again for doing this.

He said that there are other minor things that are changed. as far as you observed on his stream, is there any mention of change on science reward change on contracts?

Thanks

[montyben101]

Is the kerbal experience in sandbox?

[WWEdeadman]

-Biome maps are available to view ingame, but only available in the debug menu. They're open to feedback on this though - if a large majority of players want that as an unlockable feature, it's doable.

That's a definitive "YES! HELL YES!" from me. in-game biome maps should definitely be unlockable.

Great to see we can use them in the debug menu till then

[Superfluous J]

That's a definitive "YES! HELL YES!" from me. in-game biome maps should definitely be unlockable.

Great to see we can use them in the debug menu till then

Yeah this made me very happy. You can even roleplay it a bit, and only turn on the Biome map after you've had a "scanning probe" in polar orbit for a while.