Career - Normal - No Mods - Money Problems

[ProStasisX]

Good Morning KSP Community.

So I just started playing the game a week or so ago - and I'm hooked beyond belief.

My goal is to play through career normal until I've explored what I want, then career hard, and THEN play with mods. Trying to get as many hours out of the game as possible.

I'm running into a bit of a problem in Career Normal - I have 600K dollars, and my Mun rocket, at this point, costs around 200K. I would love to recover the fuel tanks from my first 3 stages, but I know there's a problem with not being able to really recover them cause of the 2.5KM limit - etc. I know there's a mod to change this, but I'd rather not use a mod if possible. I also know you can put a probe on them, get them on a sub orbital trajectory, switch and ride them down to the ground.

So all that aside - I'm running out of how to make money in the game. I'm almost ready to make my first flight to Minmus, but I'm currently setting up a refueling station at the Mun. My plan is to launch a Tug ship into Kerbin Orbit - then to send a fuel tank up to it - and then tug the fuel tank to the Mun. Then I can launch my rocket to the mun, as before, have it refuel there, and then make the next leg to anywhere in the solar system with slingshots, and what have you.

I fear I won't have enough money to see all of that pan out.

How do you all make money in the stock version of this game?

Thanks for your insight!

[Kobymaru]

Good Morning KSP Community.

So I just started playing the game a week or so ago - and I'm hooked beyond belief.

Good Morning, ProStasisX

That's great to hear

I'm running into a bit of a problem in Career Normal - I have 600K dollars, and my Mun rocket, at this point, costs around 200K. I would love to recover the fuel tanks from my first 3 stages, but I know there's a problem with not being able to really recover them cause of the 2.5KM limit - etc. I know there's a mod to change this, but I'd rather not use a mod if possible. I also know you can put a probe on them, get them on a sub orbital trajectory, switch and ride them down to the ground.

The currency is "Funds", btw, not dollars.

600k is already plenty for a Minmus mission! Recovering things is next to impossible without using a mod. Later in the game, you will be able to build SSTO's (Single Stage To Orbit, usually Spaceplanes) which can be recovered completely. I calculated a launch cost of only about 2000 Funds!

So all that aside - I'm running out of how to make money in the game. I'm almost ready to make my first flight to Minmus, but I'm currently setting up a refueling station at the Mun. My plan is to launch a Tug ship into Kerbin Orbit - then to send a fuel tank up to it - and then tug the fuel tank to the Mun. Then I can launch my rocket to the mun, as before, have it refuel there, and then make the next leg to anywhere in the solar system with slingshots, and what have you.

That's an ambitious plan, and I certainly suggest you try it - just not that early in a career.

You can build a simple Mun or Minmus mission (if your mission can reach the mun and get back, it can definitely go to minmus and back) for about 80K.

You will always get a lot of contracts saying (test this part here, test that part there, put a flag here) which you can always complete with less funds expenses than you get from them.

I suggest you try the simple contracts with simple missions first, and when you feel you have enuogh funds for luxuries, you can start building larger things.

Also a note on all the slingshot/mun base busyness:

-Using the Mun for slingshots is generally not worth the hassle. One one hand, you save about 200-300 m/s dV if everything is perfect, but that's at the expense of screwing up your departure schedule and introducing a lot of inaccuracies whose correction might cost you more than 300 m/s

- Using a fuel base around Mun for Mun operations is a great idea. Using a fuel base around Mun for interplanetary operations is a bad idea, because it makes all your missions really complicated and somewhat tedious - and you don't really gain much. I suggest you'd rather have a fuel depot in Kerbin Orbit that you access when you need it.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Kobymaru

[Starman4308]

I'm running into a bit of a problem in Career Normal - I have 600K dollars, and my Mun rocket, at this point, costs around 200K. I would love to recover the fuel tanks from my first 3 stages, but I know there's a problem with not being able to really recover them cause of the 2.5KM limit - etc. I know there's a mod to change this, but I'd rather not use a mod if possible. I also know you can put a probe on them, get them on a sub orbital trajectory, switch and ride them down to the ground.

A, Minmus is easier for rocket design than the Mun. You need just a little bit more fuel to get there, orbital insertion and landing costs much less dV, and return to Kerbin is about the same. The only challenges are the inclination (try to launch when Minmus's orbit crosses over KSC, so you can launch directly into the right plane) and the size of the target (requiring more fiddling with your maneuver node).

It also suggests inefficiency in rocket design to me, because it shouldn't take 200,000 funds to make a Mun rocket. This should get you there and back, and it's not even a fully optimized design. I strongly suggest Kerbal Engineer to get you delta-V and TWR values, and staring at the dV chart from the Wiki page on Kerbin.

So all that aside - I'm running out of how to make money in the game. I'm almost ready to make my first flight to Minmus, but I'm currently setting up a refueling station at the Mun. My plan is to launch a Tug ship into Kerbin Orbit - then to send a fuel tank up to it - and then tug the fuel tank to the Mun. Then I can launch my rocket to the mun, as before, have it refuel there, and then make the next leg to anywhere in the solar system with slingshots, and what have you.

That plan utterly neglects the Oberth effect. The faster you're going when you make a burn, the more kinetic energy you get (KE = 1/2 *m*v^2), and it takes kinetic energy to escape a gravity well and continue on with some velocity thereafter. You want to make your interplanetary transfers in Kerbin orbit, because in Kerbin orbit, you get 2.2 km/s just from hanging around in LKO.

One thing you could do if you were concerned about fuel on a specific craft would be to transfer to Minmus orbit, refuel there, and then drop back down to an elliptic Kerbin orbit, but the timing on that is extremely finicky, and you burn more fuel overall.

How do you all make money in the stock version of this game?

Spamming part test and Kerbal rescue contracts, mostly. Atmospheric and suborbital tests are lovely: you can easily get up to the target with a single stage going straight up, test whatever you wanted, pop chutes, and get 98-100% recovery on parts.

[UmbralRaptor]

I have 600K dollars, and my Mun rocket, at this point, costs around 200K

It hits several biomes, right? Because otherwise I'm going to suggest downsizing significantly. (Pictures would help)

So all that aside - I'm running out of how to make money in the game. I'm almost ready to make my first flight to Minmus, but I'm currently setting up a refueling station at the Mun. My plan is to launch a Tug ship into Kerbin Orbit - then to send a fuel tank up to it - and then tug the fuel tank to the Mun. Then I can launch my rocket to the mun, as before, have it refuel there, and then make the next leg to anywhere in the solar system with slingshots, and what have you.

Science returns (you can transmit it, and 0 value science is accepted) and flag planting are reliable if somewhat silly methods of raising funds.

The proposed interplanetary mission architecture is probably best done in science mode or especially with some sort of ISRU (Kethane, Karbonite, Regolith etc) mod.

[Streetwind]

Yeah, a Mun rocket should cost no six digit amount. I think your inexperience is showing here - but that's expected, KSP isn't a game you can learn in a week.

You speak of wanting to recover "the first 3 stages", which suggests that you shed that many while still on your way to orbit. Together with your rocket's price tag, I'm fairly sure that your single biggest mistake is: thinking that a bigger rocket gets you further, or that it is necessary to go big to go somewhere.

The way rockets work is quite funny: it's all about mass fractions. The relation of the mass of one stage to the mass of the next. A rocket with a first stage of 9t and a second stage of 1t can fly exactly the same mission as a rocket with a first stage of 900t and a second stage of 100t... and not a bit more or less*. Exactly the same. (* Unless engine Isp is different, yes, but I'm trying to make a point here, guys!)

Thus, I'm betting that your rocket is simply way too large. You could build something half the physical size and pricetag, and it would still be able to go to the Mun.

This rule is limited at the lower end by your minimum payload weight, that is, the weight of the equipment that is expected to land on, and perhaps return from, the Mun. Chiefly this will mean the weight of your manned capsule, a fuel tank just large enough for the descent (and possibly return flight), an engine and landing legs. Bring lights if you have unlocked them, lights are massless and are invaluable when landing with low visibility. But every unnecessary kg you add on here will multiply itself over and over down through your stages, so be frugal!

Once you have created your minimum-weight landing (and perhaps takeoff) craft, you then build a launcher under it. Since it's all about mass fractions, each stage lower down will be exponentially larger than the one above it. Also, decouplers and engines cost money and are dead weight that the lower stages must carry, so try and make a low number of stages. A typical Mun mission can get away with three: one launch stage, one upper stage that circularizes your Kerbin orbit, and one transfer stage that flies you to the Mun and captures you into orbit there - allowing your payload (the lander) to do its job. Because it's all about mass fractions, try to make sure that every new stage you add is the same amount (percentage-wise) bigger than the one above it. This could be greatly assisted by the next game update that is going to be released any day now, as it's rumored to give you a way to see how much your rocket weighs as you build it.

Perhaps a useful exercise: build a manned rocket that can launch from Kerbin, fly to the Mun, circularize a really low Mun orbit (apoapsis and periapsis both between 10 and 15 km!), leave the Mun again to return to Kerbin, and then circularize in low Kerbin orbit (~75km) on engine power alone. Use only 1.25m parts to do this. Not only is this possible - it also represents 100% of the performance you need to put a lander down on the Mun one-way, and almost 95% of what you need if you also want to return said lander to Kerbin again!

This exercise should help you learn to downsize your rockets - even if you really want to use the 2.5m 3-Kerbal pod for your lander! Because it's all about mass fractions, the same design principles that apply to tiny rockets also apply to huge ones. Except for, you know, the struts.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Streetwind

[Wanderfound]

What everyone else has said. Cheaper rockets [1], and multiple contracts per mission. If you're landing on the Mun, you can also plant a flag while you're there. And transmit orbital science. From both Kerbin and the Mun. And test a small part during the ascent. etc.

But, also: wait a few weeks. The contract system is about to change dramatically.

[1] SRBs are your friend there; much cheaper than liquid fuelled engines. Also try to shave your payload weight down as much as possible. A few kilos at the top of the rocket can cost a few tons at the bottom.

[ProStasisX]

So let me go back and say - yes, the rocket I'm using is pretty big, lol, but I liiiiike it - because it's enough for me to haul whatever I want into space. It's an asparagus design using the large orange fuel tank. (pardon my lack of terminology quite yet, still getting used to/learning it).

I will say, yes, you guys are most likely, definitely, probably very much right about it not being efficient to fuel at the mun. buuuuut... it's fun lol

I'll try to see if I can get a picture of it - but basically the rocket consists of a commander module that stays in Mun orbit (which docks at the station I have their currently), and a lander the undocks goes to the mun, collects science, and re-enters orbit to redock with the commander module. Sends science using the antenna, and can go back down to the mun in a different area. The design is very much like the old Apollo - that when in Kerbin orbit - I undock the lander (cause it's behind the command module), spin it around, and redock to the lander and push it to the Mun.

So with all of that said - I'll have to reconsider and maybe push the space station back into Kerbin orbit - and make all of that there. I guess with my asparagus design - if I put the refueler around Kerbin, I can top off my last orange tank before doing an orbit transfer.

I really wanted to try and not use any mods - but maybe I should consider that Engineer one and maybe the Recovery one...

At the end of the day, I'm having a blast with this game - but I guess if my design is $200K and I run out of money, lol, it won't be that much fun

Maybe I can start doing missions that will build a space station around some other planet!

Edit: my launch stage is strong enough to get a 3 man pod, a portable science station, and a lander to Mun's orbit With fuel left over to return home.

[capi3101]

-snip-

How do you all make money in the stock version of this game?

Thanks for your insight!

My general advice here: leave your strategies set to default, or turn on the Fundraising Campaign in the Admin building and set it to a low commitment level (like 5-10%) at first. While you don't need a lot of rep, you do need some to get the money you need for the Mun and Minmus exploration contracts. Patents Licensing is another maybe if you're far along the tech tree; if not, I'd avoid it.

The next thing I'd recommend is contracts, specifically parts testing contracts. Get one that requires "Testing while landed" and you don't even have to launch the thing - just stick it on the pad and activate it with staging controls. It's tedious but will definitely beef up your coffers to where you can afford more expensive missions. FinePrint is a mod that expands the number of types of available contracts and it'll become stock with 0.90, so that might be one you might be less adverse to using.

The good news is that if you've got a Mun rocket, you can get to Minmus - Mun takes 7200 m/s of delta-V while Minmus takes 6800 or so; while the transfer burn requires more delta-V, getting into orbit and landing takes less and the balance works out the same. So your √200,000 Mun rocket should be capable of a Minmus mission.

Would you mind sharing a screenshot of your rocket designs so far? There are folks here that are good at optimizing designs - myself included - and can help make suggestions on things you can do to save money given your current level of tech.

[Streetwind]

Maybe I can start doing missions that will build a space station around some other planet!

Currently only possible with mods - but, great news: this exact mod is getting integrated into stock in the next update, so before Christmas rolls around, your stock game will have contracts that pay you money to build a space station or planetary base somewhere.

[ProStasisX]

Perhaps a useful exercise: build a manned rocket that can launch from Kerbin, fly to the Mun, circularize a really low Mun orbit (apoapsis and periapsis both between 10 and 15 km!), leave the Mun again to return to Kerbin, and then circularize in low Kerbin orbit (~75km) on engine power alone. Use only 1.25m parts to do this. Not only is this possible - it also represents 100% of the performance you need to put a lander down on the Mun one-way, and almost 95% of what you need if you also want to return said lander to Kerbin again!

This exercise should help you learn to downsize your rockets - even if you really want to use the 2.5m 3-Kerbal pod for your lander! Because it's all about mass fractions, the same design principles that apply to tiny rockets also apply to huge ones. Except for, you know, the struts.

That sounds like a really awesome exercise - I will do this tonight - thank you!

[NASAHireMe]

Agree with all the above who say that you should aim for a smaller vehicle for Mun or Minmus.

Second, funds are actually pretty easy to obtain in KSP. In fact, most discussion around funds concern it being too generous (check around; there's a few threads in these forums). Even in the early-game, running out of funds is unlikely; by mid-game, it ceases to be a factor, as you usually have over $10mil+. This is intentional so that you don't have to spend your entire KSP experience chasing contracts that aren't fun or fulfilling, and allowing you to build things you want, like a space station around Eve or a rover for Dres.

My tips:

1. Most contracts have a VERY long completion deadline, if any. On the other hand, they always give you an immediate injection of $ on accepting the contract. So if you're really desperate for $, you can always accept every contract to get the $ and worry about completing the mission later.

2. Kerbal rescue missions are easy because they're always near 0 inclination and 80-100km orbit. It's good rendezvous practice and you can build a rescue craft for less than $50k funds

3. You shouldn't need a refueling station around the Mun. Frankly, you may never need one ever; I find that establishing a depot often takes way too much effort and time for what it's worth.

4. Testing parts 'landed' or 'splashed' at Kerbin takes literally 15 seconds per contract, so they're easy money.

5. Send a small probe into Mun orbit. Boom, anytime you need money, accept a 'send data from around the Mun' orbit and use that probe.

6. Even better, send a one-man lander to the Mun. Don't even worry about getting him home at this point. Just use him to 'plant flags' or 'send data from surface of Mun'. If you keep him there, you can milk those contracts until you have enough money for your next big project. I currently have one probe and one lander on every body in KSP, pretty much ensuring that I will never run out of money.

[NASAHireMe]

Oh yeah, as to your original plan for completing all of KSP stock before moving on to harder difficulty levels and mods, I'd STRONGLY suggest allowing yourself to use at least SOME mods once you move past the Kerbin system. Namely, Kerbal Engineer (or MechJeb, solely for its engineering data and not its other functions) and Kerbal Alarm Clock, so you don't accidentally time-warp past your objectives, which happened to me all the time.

Once you move to interplanetary missions, calculating delta-v and thrust-to-weight ratios becomes pretty much essential. You can do all of these by hand, of course, but that is a royal pain in the ass. Maybe do it by hand once or twice, just to get a sense of how DV and TWR work, and why they're important. Or you'll be stuck with launching a mission to Dres, for example, and finding out after two real-world hours of construction and piloting that your ship doesn't have enough delta-V to capture. Oops. Could've avoided that by looking at a delta-v map and Kerbal Engineer.

Also essential (in my opinion), are SelectRoot (to change root parts during construction) and a bug-fix for the radial decouplers, which haven't been working properly since 0.23.5 or something.

[WuphonsReach]

While you're waiting for 0.90, go ahead and install the Fine Print mod -- which is being integrated into the next release. That gives orbital contracts and other contracts which pay a reasonable fee (a lot of the "parts testing" contracts are just really miniscule payouts, barely worth doing unless they give science points and have sane test conditions).

Kerbal Engineer (KER) is a must-have for design sanity. It tells you the TWR / mass / cost of each stage, so you spend last funds on testing and flying by the seat of your pants. You'll start to get a feel for "this payload is too heavy to launch" conditions (which is about 5-6t for 1.25m parts on the LV-T45 engine).

For real fun, try hard mode w/ FAR (Ferram Aerospace) and DRE (Deadly Reentry).

[UmbralRaptor]

I'll try to see if I can get a picture of it - but basically the rocket consists of a commander module that stays in Mun orbit (which docks at the station I have their currently), and a lander the undocks goes to the mun, collects science, and re-enters orbit to redock with the commander module. Sends science using the antenna, and can go back down to the mun in a different area. The design is very much like the old Apollo - that when in Kerbin orbit - I undock the lander (cause it's behind the command module), spin it around, and redock to the lander and push it to the Mun.

So with all of that said - I'll have to reconsider and maybe push the space station back into Kerbin orbit - and make all of that there. I guess with my asparagus design - if I put the refueler around Kerbin, I can top off my last orange tank before doing an orbit transfer.

I really wanted to try and not use any mods - but maybe I should consider that Engineer one and maybe the Recovery one...

At the end of the day, I'm having a blast with this game - but I guess if my design is $200K and I run out of money, lol, it won't be that much fun

Maybe I can start doing missions that will build a space station around some other planet!

Edit: my launch stage is strong enough to get a 3 man pod, a portable science station, and a lander to Mun's orbit With fuel left over to return home.

F1 will take screenshots in game. I would very much lean towards a Mk1 pod, and trying out direct ascent over munar orbit rendezvous.

While undersized for serious science gathering, I like this craft as an example of simple (if not cheap) design: