What else should be breakable, so engineers can fix it?

[CaptRobau]

The new update introduces the engineer skill and its ability to repair certain broken parts. So far, engineers can repair: parachutes (or rather repack them after use), landing legs and wheels. What else should be breakable, so engineers can fix it?

[Darnok]

- science parts

- engines (crash or overheating for too long should break engine)

- command parts (manned and unmanned) disable control and torque on broken parts

- tanks, it could have a leak while broken?

- docking ports, we would have two options repair or undock mannualy... send kerbal to pull or push something

[soulsource]

I think that most parts are either OK or gone for good. As long as the engineer isn't called Montgomery Scott Kerman, I think that there is simply no chance of repairing broken fuel tanks or engines. Also, repairing solar panels after seeing them disintegrate is at least questionable if there is no replacement part storage available...

What could on the other hand make sense would be science equipment. The Mobile Processing Lab and the Science Jr for instance are pretty fragile right now, and as I understand. this fragility should reflect the delicacy of the stored experiments, not the frame around them. So, I could imagine that for these two modules a range of impact speeds might be defined in which they loose their function (and stored data?), but stay structurally intact, and can be fixed by an engineer.

Furthermore, struts and fuel lines might be made break- and fixable. For these parts, the question would be, if only previously placed parts should be repairable, or if there should be some kind of part storage and the option to place new struts during a mission (similar to the KAS mod).

While for the other parts Darnok suggested I can imagine how their failure should affect the ship, but it's hard to think of suitable conditions for failure. Completely random failures as with the Dang It! mod are out of the question from a gameplay perspective (except maybe as an optional gameplay element for hard mode - and in such a case one can always just use the mod itself...). Shock might be considered here as with the science parts.

[Superfluous J]

I think it'd be cool if each part had 2 tolerances.

Breaking tolerance would be how fast the item can hit the ground and not break.

Destruction tolerance would be how fast the item can hit the ground and not explode.

If two numbers are the same (or if Destruction is lower than Breaking) then the part never breaks, it just explodes. I think most structural and storage parts should be like this.

If you hit the ground below the lowest tolerance, the part is fine.

If you hit the ground above the Destruction tolerance, the part explodes.

If you hit the ground above the Breaking tolerance, but below the Destruction tolerance, the part goes into a broken state. It cannot be used until repaired.

Parts could also have a rating (from 1 to 5) for how good your engineer needs to be to fix it. This should be listed on each part along with both tolerances.

Rockomax Mainsail

Breaking Tolerance: 7m/s

Destroying Tolerance: 10m/s

Skill to Fix: Level 3

Also: A level 5 engineer should be able to do the two most useful things from KAS: Attaching struts and fuel lines. Maybe just from a current fuel line or strut connector (like one that broke off) but ideally command pods could have a small supply of each as an optional, mass-free resource addition.

Edited December 19, 2014 by 5thHorseman

[cicatrix]

Actually, in real life, there are many things that gets broken in space and engineers fix it (electrics, power, hydraulics even, mechanisms, life-support systems, communications, computers, etc), but when we're speaking of KSP I think we can break the attitude control (starting from complete irresponsiveness of a ship to some jerky or inaccurate orientation), we can break RCS, we can make fairings stuck so that they have to be removed manually, we can block the deployment of solar panels, make accumulators leak its charge / reduce capacity, etc. Also we can make throttling system inoperable or force it to work in limited range, prevent engine from turning on due to some glitch in control/actuator mechanisms, force antennae to stop working, break control instruments (say, you stop seeing altitude/speed indicators) , etc

[drewscriver]

I think it'd be cool if a high enough level engineer would be able to warn you before a part was going to break (in the case of non-player caused failures). That might give you enough time to throttle down the engine, or transfer fuel away from the punctured tank before too much leaked away.

[KrazyKrl]

I think it'd be cool if each part had 2 tolerances.

Breaking tolerance would be how fast the item can hit the ground and not break.

Destruction tolerance would be how fast the item can hit the ground and not explode.

If two numbers are the same (or if Destruction is lower than Breaking) then the part never breaks, it just explodes. I think most structural and storage parts should be like this.

If you hit the ground below the lowest tolerance, the part is fine.

If you hit the ground above the Destruction tolerance, the part explodes.

If you hit the ground above the Breaking tolerance, but below the Destruction tolerance, the part goes into a broken state. It cannot be used until repaired.

Parts could also have a rating (from 1 to 5) for how good your engineer needs to be to fix it. This should be listed on each part along with both tolerances.

Also: A level 5 engineer should be able to do the two most useful things from KAS: Attaching struts and fuel lines. Maybe just from a current fuel line or strut connector (like one that broke off) but ideally command pods could have a small supply of each as an optional, mass-free resource addition.

I would increase the granularity of the damage.

i.e...

High Threshold for Destruction

Destructing parts keep their mounting location if the parent part still exists. (Shipping replacements!)

Can only replace Destructed parts when parent part is 100% functional.

Very low threshold for impact damage, and a decent level for G-Loading damage(G loads inherited from parent.) (Something like fragile solar panels touching ANYTHING and they damage)

Depending on how damaged a part is, the higher level of Engineer you need.

The base required level of Engineer for repairs could be tied to the Science Level of the item, or its complexity.

[Superfluous J]

I would increase the granularity of the damage.

i.e...

High Threshold for Destruction

Destructing parts keep their mounting location if the parent part still exists. (Shipping replacements!)

Can only replace Destructed parts when parent part is 100% functional.

Very low threshold for impact damage, and a decent level for G-Loading damage(G loads inherited from parent.) (Something like fragile solar panels touching ANYTHING and they damage)

Depending on how damaged a part is, the higher level of Engineer you need.

The base required level of Engineer for repairs could be tied to the Science Level of the item, or its complexity.

I like it. Especially the idea of just getting brushed up against means damage. Parts could have a damage percentage based on just getting bumped.

Another idea, a very nerfed implementation of the Dang It! mod, but if you have an engineer anywhere on your ship nothing ever breaks (unless you crash of course). And instead of the parts just breaking they take a small percentage damage. You could get alerts when they're 50% damaged so you have to send an engineer to the ship to fix it.

To reduce click spam, just have all damage slowly repair up to the on-staff engineer's skill.

[KrazyKrl]

I like it. Especially the idea of just getting brushed up against means damage. Parts could have a damage percentage based on just getting bumped.

Another idea, a very nerfed implementation of the Dang It! mod, but if you have an engineer anywhere on your ship nothing ever breaks (unless you crash of course).

That sounds like implementing random failures, which Squad said they would not implement into the base game. And having an Engineer on board is more of an efficency/reliability/mission sustainability type of thing anyhow.

[cicatrix]

The introduction of engineers can indeed bring more fun to the game (consider this as a free mod idea):

Imagine you're building a rocket.

Now the cost is comprised of the cost of the parts PLUS the cost of assembly/reliability testing. Let's imagine, we have this added to the game and this will automatically mean that we can:

a) buy cheap parts

cut on the costs of assembly/reliability

This can be regulated by moving sliders on the part's right-click menu (reliability: 50% - 100%) with cost increase gradually from 50% to 100% of the original.

So, if we're short of money, we can build a 70% reliable craft (with 30% change of part malfunction) and if we have a good engineer we can have him fixing things or simply lower the malfunction rate.

[KrazyKrl]

The introduction of engineers can indeed bring more fun to the game (consider this as a free mod idea):

Imagine you're building a rocket.

Now the cost is comprised of the cost of the parts PLUS the cost of assembly/reliability testing. Let's imagine, we have this added to the game and this will automatically mean that we can:

a) buy cheap parts

cut on the costs of assembly/reliability

This can be regulated by moving sliders on the part's right-click menu (reliability: 50% - 100%) with cost increase gradually from 50% to 100% of the original.

So, if we're short of money, we can build a 70% reliable craft (with 30% change of part malfunction) and if we have a good engineer we can have him fixing things or simply lower the malfunction rate.

Seems like a roundabout way of asking for random failures. Now, if the reliability build quality slider affected overheating and ImpactResistance...

You push your engines above 60% without a thrust limiter they get damaged due to heat.

You damage your unprotected, undeployed, solar panels during MaxQ on ascent.

You damage your command pod because you needed that .5t to get under some load requirement; and you hit the ground hard.

[Superfluous J]

That sounds like implementing random failures, which Squad said they would not implement into the base game. And having an Engineer on board is more of an efficency/reliability/mission sustainability type of thing anyhow.

It doesn't have to be random. Have parts degrade as a function of time. So going to Mun or Minmus, nothing would ever break. Going to Duna or Eve, the weaker stuff would break. Going to Jool, everything would break.

...unless you bring a single engineer with you so he can keep everything running at 100%.

[Wanderfound]

As suggested by others: don't just focus on repair. Engineers build stuff.

So, when they finally get around to introducing KAS-style functionality, that's what engineers are good for. Setting up fuel lines and struts, constructing orbital and planetary bases, etc.

[cicatrix]

I dream of a time when a Kerbal engineer in EVA can catch one floating girder and attach it to another one.

[Rdivine]

Too much restarts will cause engines to fail

[Rook116]

Engineers levels should improve resource use efficiency. Truncate the repair skills to level 1. Then...

Level 2 - Improve resource efficiency by 2.5%

Level 3 - Improve resource efficiency by 5%

Level 4 - Improve resource efficiency by 7.5%

Level 5 - Improve resource efficiency by 10%

Electricity usage and fuel consumption then would be effected by the level of your engineer.

I'm also thinking that an engineer could use a remote power pack or gas can to fire up a dead ship or satellite (derelict retrieval contract!)

[klgraham1013]

I don't believe random failures should be stock, but performance degradation with use/over time would be nice. Spare parts should be added as a means for engineers to fix said parts.

As far as which; nearly all besides structural in my opinion: tanks, engines, batteries. You name it.

[thyriel]

I think a great addition would be contracts that need us to send a technican to satellites / bases for repairs.

[klgraham1013]

I think a great addition would be contracts that need us to send a technican to satellites / bases for repairs.

Yes. ...but I believe these contracts should be initiated by an actual break in your own craft. I highly dislike the idea of contracts placing objects in your game. Contracts should detect you have classified something as a station and give you contracts to that station. Randomly placing a stranded Kerbal or broken satellite breaks immersion for me.

[r4pt0r]

Engineers levels should improve resource use efficiency. Truncate the repair skills to level 1. Then...

Level 2 - Improve resource efficiency by 2.5%

Level 3 - Improve resource efficiency by 5%

Level 4 - Improve resource efficiency by 7.5%

Level 5 - Improve resource efficiency by 10%

Electricity usage and fuel consumption then would be effected by the level of your engineer.

I'm also thinking that an engineer could use a remote power pack or gas can to fire up a dead ship or satellite (derelict retrieval contract!)

NO NO NO, It took a 64 page thread to get that idea canceled.

edit: giving a ship a few units charge might be alright, thats not too unfeasible if it is done right.

Edited December 19, 2014 by r4pt0r

[thyriel]

Yes. ...but I believe these contracts should be initiated by an actual break in your own craft. I highly dislike the idea of contracts placing objects in your game. Contracts should detect you have classified something as a station and give you contracts to that station. Randomly placing a stranded Kerbal or broken satellite breaks immersion for me.

I didn't meant that it places stuff somewhere, it was more meant as a follow-up mission for the already existing satellite / base building contracts.

So first you do a satellite contract, somewhen later you see a repair contract for that satellite you sent up there some years ago

[Rook116]

NO NO NO, It took a 64 page thread to get that idea canceled.

edit: giving a ship a few units charge might be alright, thats not too unfeasible if it is done right.

YOWSA! I even went looking for this idea to make sure someone hadn't suggested it.

/slowly backs out of the room with my Engineer's Kerbal wrench in hand.

[klgraham1013]

You walked into the viper's nest.

[klgraham1013]

I think there were two of us who thought KSP RPG might be an interesting idea. I do wonder if the same outrage would have come from "-%10" as opposed to "%10". Many claimed magic when a pilot could achieve %10 higher isp from an engine. I wonder if Squad had claimed a fledgling pilot could only achieve 90% of the maximum isp, if that would have been seen as equally magical.

Anyway, that's water under the bridge now.

[Whirligig Girl]

-Many more things are breakable, and Engineers can fix them!

-Level 4 engineers Place Struts in flight/space/orbit/landed.

-Breakable Claw

--Repairable for level 4 engineer

-Breakable Batteries

--Repairable for level 1 engineer

-Repairable Solar Panels

--OX-STAT is breakable

--OX-STAT, and the small extendable solar panels are for level 2 engineer.

-0.625m and 1.25m engines are breakable

--0.625m engines can be repaired by level 3 engineer

--1.25m engines can be repaired by level 4 engineer

--LV-N can be repaired by level 5 engineer

-Kerbal EVA suits are breakable, resulting in a loss of jetpack control. Level 3 engineers can both refuel and repair the suit. (This also would make bouncing Kerbals not OP)

-Level 5 Engineers can also deploy a small exploration rover, assuming the Field Science tech has been unlocked.

-Scientists have different unique science experiments, which one is chosen is based on a hash of their name so it seems random. Scientists change which experiments they can do as they level up, but they have higher science values as they level up. If you want all the science, then take scientists of different levels.

-Level 1:

--Surface Analysis Report (Not about the dirt, more about the landscape)

--Atmosphere Sample (Can be done in space too, to get a sample of pure vacuum)

--Bio-reading Report (Experiment done through the capsule right click menu, it monitors the Kerbal's lifesigns in a situation.)

-Level 2:

--Rock Sample (Pick up a rock and store it in your bag to bring home. Basically a beefy surface sample.)

--Atmosphere Sample

--Expose Living Sample (Open a container of bacteria or something and record what happens to it.)

-Level 3:

--MSEP (Munar Surface Experiment Package, it does a plethora of studies, and is deployed on the surface, but the science is only given after the Kerbal who planted the package is recovered from Kerbin.)

--Throw a Glider (A little spaceplane can test the interactions between wind, gravity, and atmospheric pressure. It must be picked back up to gather the data)

--Mix Goo Samples (Allows you to mix two goo samples from different situations into one pod, so that the interaction of goo from different situations can be studied.

-Level 4:

--Stellar Wind Experiment (Measure the effects of The Sun's wind. It's basically a different shaped, non-customizable flag)

--Boulder Sampling (Go Minecrafting! Okay, not really, just use a pick/mattock to collect a sample of the Surface Scatter rocks.)

--Seismic Equipment and Explosive. (A seismic scanner that can be planted, and an explosive which can be used to detonate and activate seismic activities nearby. Also works with crashing things into the surface. But Explosions are cool

-Level 5:

--Deploy Science Probe Rover (This, like the engineer's crewed rover, is a little rover equipped with some of it's own experiments that can drive around for about a minute at a time before needing a recharge)

---Drill Deep Sample Core (Rover will drill deep into the rocks and study the deeper layers of the regolith of a planet/moon.

---Barometer, Thermometer, Accellerometer, and Gravioli Detector

---Chem-study laser (The rover shoots a laser beam to analyze the vapor that comes off of the material)

---Can crash, but also be repaired by engineers!

--Any of the Tier 4 or Tier 3 Experiments as well, in addition.

Pilots can do more than just hold steady now. Just barely.

-Level 3:

--Increased jetpack thrust, fuel, and turn speed, because they can handle the pack better.

--Hold craft steady upwards (Directly away from planet surface)

--Hold craft steady downwards. (Directly towards planet surface)

--Point at Maneuver Node.

--Point at Normal, Antinormal,

-Level 4:

--Hold craft steady at horizon. Yaw left and right on the horizon is allowed still, but it will keep on the horizon. Great for spaceplanes!

-Level 5:

--Execute Manuever Node.

--Fly into Orbit (Must be with a proven design, because it works by simply repeating everything you did already.)

Space Tourists barely count as crew. They have NO piloting ability (I.e, they do not provide control to a command module or seat, can not use EVA pack) But they can be very profitable to launch into orbit! You get them from contracts.

Level 1: Nothing at all.

Level 2: EVA Report.

Level 5: Can finally use EVA pack, but does not automatically balance thrust, so rotation is not automatically stopped.